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[Newschmoo]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LOL - he is!! It's hilarious, though. Like, stomach-ache hilarious.

What's weird is how genuinely nice and thankful she is to Hawke for helping her. She'd almost seem sane, if she weren't, you know, insane.

That's the problem with those Chantry folk.

I guess you would have to make Hawke aggressive in order for Sister Petrice to live? I have made Hawke make really aggressive decisions in the past and then gone back to previous saves cause I felt bad. I am a wuss!

Sister Petrice is just awful. Don't know that I could let her live. I was really gutted when the Saarebas died.  I hope we learn more about the Saarebas in DA3 as they are interesting (possible companion?) and are treated far worse than mages.

[Newschmoo]

PhantomGinger wrote...

 *sees talk about Joker not being an LI*

 We fought so hard...so hard...and we were so sure he would be one! Then he...he just...



Okay, I'm done, I promise.

I actually came in here to say that I just started a new mage PT in Origins, and I forgot that Cullen stutters a bit when he's nervous! IT'S SO ADORABLE. 

 That will be me if Cullen doesn't become a companion!

[R2s Muse]

Wow... it's been a while since it's taken me that long to catch up on the thread. Yay for new people!!

I did want to chime in briefly on MMG's comment on the bisexuality thing... we had sorta agreed not to talk about it here since it's so sensitive. We've all been super super nice and diplomatic about it, but nevertheless, it's also well-trod territory that can get hot button for some folks. And, even here in the Cullen thread, it has gotten vitriolic in the past.

Templar R2 says, "Caution!"

250x170http://social.bioware.com/uploads_user/750000/749930/231953.jpg[/img]

Also, I've already said it a few times in the past few days, but there's a banner round up on page 1700. Knock yourselves out. http://social.biowar...1/1700#16551856

oooooh, finally... love you guys for the Alias reference! #sidneybristowlives

[neonmoth]

Woah, guys you are producing pages with the speed fo light. Last time I saw you somewhere in 1780s ;]

Just wanted to chime in for a few quick thoughts. I don't think having PC-sexual LIs is an issue per se since it gives players more choice and is easy on develpers fundings, though I love your reasoning brushyourteeth for having more defined, and therefore more realistic orientations (I really liked how it was tackled in ME3). Here is the trouble, to maintain certain level of ambiguity, i.e. allow players to imagine that the characters are blank sltes/particular orientation in your game, the whole romancing has to be player initiated. But then we lose more pro-active romantic interests, since the PC has to hit on everything first ;] I liked Kaidan romance in ME3, but I have noticed that many straight guys found conversations with him quite awkward. Similar issue could be found in Anders bromance. The point is I like a bit of activity on LI part, so I gladly sacrifice the ambiguity and I was wondering if actually many people care about the character's orientation once the game is released.

I think I just lost what I wanted to say here...

I hope I'm not stepping at your toes motomotogirl, but I find the issue of sexuality (and that players feel quite stronlgy about it) quite interesting...

Edit: ups R2, you all folks disregard my post :innocent:

Modifié par neonmoth, 18 mai 2013 - 11:18 .

[neonmoth]

Changing topic (desperate thought process.... think think)

I must admit that I am shifting my mind, between really WANTING Cullen in DA3, since I trust the writers, they made such a good job with his character in the past two installments, and really DREADING of him going the way I wouldn't want him to go (I guess that the rough Anders photo gave me that thought). It is possibly due to the fact that he is a very fleshed out NPC but still a lot about him is unknown, hence my very personal take on his motivations and actions.

What am I talking about, I definitely want him in DA3, just please don't torture him me too much... No NPC cameo as a raging lyrium junky in a Kirkwall slum

Modifié par neonmoth, 18 mai 2013 - 11:30 .

[R2s Muse]

neonmoth wrote...

Changing topic (desperate thought process.... think think)

I must admit that I am shifting my mind, between really WANTING Cullen in DA3, since I trust the writers, they made such a good job with his character in the past two installments, and really DREADING of him going the way I wouldn't want him to go (I guess that the rough Anders photo gave me that thought). It is possibly due to the fact that he is a very fleshed out NPC but still a lot about him is unknown, hence my very personal take on his motivations and actions.

What am I talking about, I definitely want him in DA3, just please don't torture him me too much... No NPC cameo as a raging lyrium junky in a Kirkwall slum

LOL Or appearance only on a tombstone...

Modifié par R2s Muse, 18 mai 2013 - 11:35 .

[R2s Muse]

neonmoth wrote...
Edit: ups R2, you all folks disregard my post :innocent:

LOL No worries. Just trying to keep an eye on the Cullen thread being our happy place. While it may be one of the few places  on BSN wher we can have the bisexuality conversation in a respectful and reasoned way... it still has devolved in the past. Best to avoid it altogether, since there are other places to discuss that particular topic.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 18 mai 2013 - 11:38 .

[neonmoth]

haha, I love how delightfully fiendish he is...

R2s Muse wrote...
Just trying to keep an eye on the Cullen thread being our happy place.

Spot on, I'll search for those "dark places" to satisfy my curiosity

Modifié par neonmoth, 18 mai 2013 - 11:42 .

[neonmoth]

I totally don't want to mess with your heads spurting posts one after another but I wondered whether you ever discussed (I bet you did) Cullen's reappearance in DA2? It would be just as easy not to retcon his DAO ending and introduce a completely new character. I wonder whether they wanted to add a more personal touch with the character we were already familiar with, or whether they thought he was fitting with his personal story (someone who could help us to better understand the templar point of view, considering his past) or maybe Cullen is a secret hero of DA universe, the saviour of Thedas and they just had to

And forgive me if I am "reheating old meals" with my posts but please, please don't ask me to read all 1800 pages. I'm trying to have a peak in places and skim the content but the task is ovewhelming...

[R2s Muse]

neonmoth wrote...

I totally don't want to mess with your heads spurting posts one after another but I wondered whether you ever discussed (I bet you did) Cullen's reappearance in DA2? It would be just as easy not to retcon his DAO ending and introduce a completely new character. I wonder whether they wanted to add a more personal touch with the character we were already familiar with, or whether they thought he was fitting with his personal story (someone who could help us to better understand the templar point of view, considering his past) or maybe Cullen is a secret hero of DA universe, the saviour of Thedas and they just had to

And forgive me if I am "reheating old meals" with my posts but please, please don't ask me to read all 1800 pages. I'm trying to have a peak in places and skim the content but the task is ovewhelming...

No worries, neonmouth. In some sense, it's nearly impossible to find a topic we haven't discussed. So that being said, it's always interesting to hear new perspectives.

One interesting factoid in Cullen's inclusion is that the DotS making of video features the endgame footage of Cullen but using a generic face model.


It begs the question of whether they decided later on to include him or was that just a placeholder while they either finished Cullen's model or hid that he was in the game.

I've never heard anything from the writers about why Cullen is in DA2. I know that in DA:O, Sheryl Chee has said it was an afterthought to make the templar in the cage the same dude who had a crush on f!Warden, to give players an extra connection with his plight. Maybe it's the same thing. Or... maybe since they've known  for years they were going for the mage-templar war, they decided to promote a templar as the "face" of the conflict. I dunno.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 18 mai 2013 - 12:33 .

[LolaLei]

Woah, we jump up a few pages again!

[LolaLei]

I certainly think that to some extent Cullen's continual inclusion in the games has been down to luck. From their afterthought of making him the templar stuck in the cage, to the reception he got from fans for crushing on the mage Warden, to being sent to Greenfell in the Witch Hunt dlc instead of becoming a mage-murdering nut-case like his original epilogues, to his promotion to Knight Captain in DA2 and the subsequent adoration and fan-fall out he caused.

It's like DG has said a few times in the past, some characters don't always go in the way you originally predicted/intended and end up essentially writing themselves. I think maybe that's been the case with Cullen. Add to that the fact that he seems to have become a highly talked about controversial character and I wouldn't be surprised if that's why they decided to include him in DA3 (regardless of his capacity). 

I think he was probably always just meant to be a minor npc character seen only in DA:O, but for some reason the guy just refuses to go unheard! <3

[neonmoth]

R2s Muse wrote...
One interesting factoid in Cullen's inclusion is that the DotS making of video features the endgame footage of Cullen but using a generic face model. *picsnip* It begs the question of whether they decided later on to include him or was that just a placeholder while they either finished Cullen's model or hid that he was in the game.

This is something I had no idea about. Interesting.... Though I would think it could be just a placeholder, since character model creation takes some time and it would not be a "last minute" inclusion.

R2s Muse wrote...
I've never heard anything from the writers about why Cullen is in DA2. I know that in DA:O, Sheryl Chee has said it was an afterthought to make the templar in the cage the same dude who had a crush on f!Warden, to give players an extra connection with his plight. Maybe it's the same thing. Or... maybe since they've known  for years they were going for the mage-templar war, they decided to promote a templar as the "face" of the conflict. I dunno.

I can imagine him being the afterthought in the Origins, I guess it is easy enough to play with npcs that you have already established. Could be the afterthought with the DA2, I guess. Funnily enough, even though I liked his character in Origins, I wouldn't mind so much if he never reappeared or had a little cameo in DA2, but now I'm really interested in his further development.

LolaLei wrote...
I certainly think that to some extent Cullen's continual inclusion in the games has been down to luck. From their afterthought of making him the templar stuck in the cage, to the reception he got from fans for crushing on the mage Warden, to being sent to Greenfell in the Witch Hunt dlc instead of becoming a mage-murdering nut-case like his original epilogues, to his promotion to Knight Captain in DA2 and the subsequent adoration and fan-fall out he
caused.

Completely forgot about the Witch Hunt *never played this dlc*, it looks like he was conveniently fitting within the plot all along.

LolaLei wrote...
It's like DG has said a few times in the past, some characters don't always go in the way you originally predicted/intended and end up essentially writing themselves. I think maybe that's been the case with Cullen. Add to that the fact that he seems to have become a highly talked about controversial character and I wouldn't be surprised if that's why they decided to include him in DA3 (regardless of his capacity).

I'm secretely hoping that his ability to induce strong emotional responses in fans will be his ticket to DA3...

LolaLei wrote...
I think he was probably always just meant to be a minor npc character seen only in DA:O, but for some reason the guy just refuses to go unheard! <3

OO, I like this thought a lot. "The character you have created has life of his own"

Modifié par neonmoth, 18 mai 2013 - 02:00 .

[Jean]

If it were me, I'd be flattered that such a minor character has so much love (and hate; hate isn't always a bad thing).
Especially if he was never intended for anything more than such

i can also totally understand why creepiness may also stem from it

[LolaLei]

I wonder if maybe his retconned epilogues being changed to him getting sent to Greenfell was something to do with the initial fan reaction he got?

[LolaLei]

What makes me laugh about people complaining that he was "creepy" with the female mage Warden is that they are forgetting that (despite his physical appearance in DA:O) he was supposed to be young. Who hasn't got a bit obsessed with someone, be it a real person, celebrity or fictional character when they were a kid/teen. It's all part of growing up. The fact that he didn't act on his feelings goes a long way.

Modifié par LolaLei, 18 mai 2013 - 02:25 .

[SamaraDraven]

I think the devs were trying to create a sense of continuity to the games so we felt we were playing in the Dragon Age 'verse and chose Cullen for a touch of familiarity on the Templars side. Not everyone would recognize him but many would go "Hey! I remember this guy!" The fact that made him a Chantry centered, sort of middle ground character, I think was their way of trying to show how the Mage/Templar conflict isn't black and white. Cullen seems indecisive because he's supposed to... counter or balance the PC's choices, hence why he says something rather opposite of what you say in either extreme. If you pick a middle road response and emphasize finding a way to work everything out, he agrees the most with you there. This tells me he's "meant" to be a decent guy. His epilogue slide in DAO was never confirmed as his. Everyone just assumes it's him. It says a "Templar who was tortured for an indefinite amount of time by Uldred's blood mages went berserk". I'm paraphrasing but I don't recall Cullen being named. He's assumed. I know I did because I remember, when I read it, that I said out loud "Cullen, probably - no surprise, given how he was talking at the end..." And even THAT was a rumor. Any other templar could be doing it - or any person really - and as rumors often do, it grew and changed. H3ll another templar - or person who had seen Cullen and thought it'd be fun to play knight for a while - could have been doing it IN HIS NAME since he wasn't there, having been canonized as being in Greenfell to recover. Wouldn't it just bake people's noodles if they found out a MAGE (who felt he was "freeing his people from their curse") had been doing it and hated Cullen for whatever reason and was using his name?

There's so little to go on and anything is possible. So even IF Cullen had been named, those were rumors. If it had been fact, he wasn't named (that I recall). Everyone just ASSUMED he became a murdering lunatic. Which was only one possible ending - certainly not "canon". It took DA2 for me to even think maybe I had sheeped along with everyone else. The fact that DG or any other writer has had to say again and again that Cullen wasn't what everyone thought, is sad. They shouldn't have to need to do that. And then when they flat out say "That's only one POSSIBILITY and it was only a rumor and it's not the lore we're going to run with that" I think it's arrogant for the players to tell the creators of this universe that they're wrong just so they can hold onto their hate. =/ If Cullen is proven to be a mage hating/murdering psycho and his story is given a fair treatment, I will accept that. I'm not going to cry "LIAR!" at the devs just so I can continue to adore him without guilt. I'd be heartbroken because I couldn't adore him anymore, but I'd still be endlessly thankful he had a decent story. To me, Cullen seems like he was the perfect choice to the writers for that touch of something familiar - which DA2 needed to sell - AND a representation of the intricacies of the conflict going on in Thedas. Just my humble opinion.

Modifié par SamaraDraven, 18 mai 2013 - 02:43 .

[SamaraDraven]

LolaLei wrote...

What makes me laugh about people complaining that he was "creepy" with the female mage Warden is that they are forgetting that (despite his physical appearance in DA:O) he was supposed to be young. Who hasn't got a bit obsessed with someone, be it a real person, celebrity or fictional character when they were a kid/teen. It's all part of growing up. The fact that he didn't act on his feelings goes a long way.

Pretty much this! <3

I dare any of those crying "Creepster!" to be locked up at the end of their teen years and be put in a closed environment with their cute "captors" and not crush on one of them - especially if he/she treated him/her with a different attitude. Or be put in Cullen's shoes and have to abstain from the ONE thing most teens and young adults think of constantly and be locked away with a bunch of girls/boys - many of them pretty and/or sexy - and NOT crush on the one who treated him/her differently. I mean, COME ON! Pot, kettle... I call you the same.

Edit: It just irks me that people act like they're a saint or something. How many would actually act on their desires after a while? Cullen not only doesn't try anything, he actively runs away when you, the PC, make it clear you're interested too. An indecent creep wouldn't have done that. They'd have actively tried to pursuade the object of their attentions to consent. Having a crush, a dubiously mild at that -since it wasn't obvious to me right away he did, or maybe I just don't get shyguy speak for "I like you" - is hardly grounds for creepster status, let alone hate.

Modifié par SamaraDraven, 18 mai 2013 - 02:53 .

[LolaLei]

To be honest, none of Cullen's DA:O epilogues ever popped up at the end of my game. I'll see if I can find them on the DA wiki.

[neonmoth]

@Batteries: I agree, any reaction is better than no reaction at all, and he definitely pushes some buttons in people. What tickles me is that, regardless of whether others find him appealing or detestable, they don't appreciate how interesting his personal journey is (let's forget some inconsistencies within the story) and the context he gives for the whole mage/templar problem.

LolaLei wrote...
What makes me laugh about people complaining that he was "creepy" with the female mage Warden are forgetting that (despite his physical appearance in DA:O) he was supposed to be young. Who hasn't got a bit obsessed with someone, be it a real person, celebrity or fictional character when they were a kid/teen. It's all part of growing up. The fact that he didn't act on his feelings goes a long way.

You see, this is something I cannot understand, maybe I am a deeply disturbed person, but I found it believable that this scenario would be quite common in a closed comunnity such as individual Circles. They really don't hang around many people and I can see some sort of fascination possible to develop between the members of both groups (since they are so alien to each other), and forbidden romance is such an old tale in literary history that is not even funny. As someone mentioned on this forum (and I have a feelig it was David Gaider) the line between creepy stalking and sweet crush is very narrow and very often depends on the feelings of the object of admiration. More so, mage warden has only one (!) conversation with Cullen, and never he states his feelings or uses them to manipulate/harass the warden. I know that during further events in the Broken Circle questline, he becomes very extreme but I never felt anything but compassion when he was locked in a cage. I even accepted that he went bonkers in the finale and even though it was very saddening, I never found it out of place.

I was actually thinking about what some posters on this forum said about not being able to trust Cullen, since he was so unpredictable in his hatred. I thought that this is how he himself could actualy feel about my mage warden (and mages in general), since magic corrupted so many around him regardless whether they were actively searching for power or were merely victims of demons. Furthermore, I feel more understanding about his not-true-cause-retconed killing of the innocent mages, than about Zevran's (who I love to bits) admitting to killing innocents when his job demanded of him. It amazes me, how quickly people can glorify some characters and villify others. This is what I like about the DA world, that nothing is as straight forward as it seems and it has all sort of shades of grey.

Modifié par neonmoth, 18 mai 2013 - 02:59 .

[SamaraDraven]

I only got one vague reference to a mage murdering lunatic who was rumored to be a templar, at the end of one of my playthroughs when I sided with the mages and asked for their freedom. But I had saved the Circle and pretty much dissed Cullen when he was shouting at Greagoir to kill the remaining mages as a precaution. I certainly don't recall Cullen's name being mentioned though the slide does insinuate it enough that one can reasonably think it was him. But there's enough doubt there...

[LolaLei]

Nope, can't even find them.

[SamaraDraven]

LolaLei wrote...

Nope, can't even find them.

See? It's only one possible ending that MIGHT be about Cullen. And it can't even be found.  I've searched the wiki and any other source I can get my hands on and I'm just not finding it. I even restarted DAO as an elf mage to see if I can trigger the slide again but I haven't finished that playthrough yet. If I do, trigger it, I'll try to screenshot it or something. I don't have PC version but I do have a camera!

[LolaLei]

neonmoth wrote...

@Batteries: I agree, any reaction is better than no reaction at all, and he definitely pushes some buttons in people. What tickles me is that, regardless of whether others find him appealing or detestable, they don't appreciate how interesting his personal journey is (let's forget some inconsistencies within the story) and the context he gives for the whole mage/templar problem.

LolaLei wrote...
What makes me laugh about people complaining that he was "creepy" with the female mage Warden are forgetting that (despite his physical appearance in DA:O) he was supposed to be young. Who hasn't got a bit obsessed with someone, be it a real person, celebrity or fictional character when they were a kid/teen. It's all part of growing up. The fact that he didn't act on his feelings goes a long way.

You see, this is something I cannot understand, maybe I am a deeply disturbed person, but I found it believable that this scenario would be quite common in a closed comunnity such as individual Circles. They really don't hang around many people and I can see some sort of fascination possible to develop between the members of both groups (since they are so alien to each other), and forbidden romance is such an old tale in literary history that is not even funny. As someone mentioned on this forum (and I have a feelig it was David Gaider) the line between creepy stalking and sweet crush is very narrow and very often depends on the feelings of the object of admiration. More so, mage warden has only one (!) conversation with Cullen, and never he states his feelings or uses them to manipulate/harass the warden. I know that during further events in the Broken Circle questline, he becomes very extreme but I never felt anything but compassion when he was locked in a cage. I even accepted that he went bonkers in the finale and even though it was very saddening, I never found it out of place.

I was actually thinking about what some posters on this forum said about not being able to trust Cullen, since he was so unpredictable in his hatred. I thought that this is how he himself could actualy feel about my mage warden (and mages in general), since magic corrupted so many around him regardless whether they were actively searching for power or were merely victims of demons. Furthermore, I feel more understanding about his not-true-cause-retconed killing of the innocent mages, than about Zevran's (who I love to bits) admitting to killing innocents when his job demanded of him. It amazes me, how quickly people can glorify some characters and villify others. This is what I like about the DA world, that nothing is as straight forward as it seems and it has all sort of shades of grey.

I don't think Sheryl Chee's posts about him being creepy and stuff helped, even though she was joking some people took it seriously even after she explained that it was a joke. 

As for Cullen being unpredictable in his hatred, that's utter bollocks. Anders was unpredictable and even he had good reason for it (cheers Justice!) Cullen shows ridiculous amounts of self control. Even when he kneed Wilmod in the balls the whole thing was planned out and had no intention to actually kill the guy, he was just trying to threaten him into a confession. He only cut him down when he turned into an abomination.

I'd say, out of all the non-companion npcs we've met so far Cullen is the most trustworthy. You just know he wouldn't cut you down for being a blood-mage or an abomination until the moment you turned into one or turned on him.

[SamaraDraven]

neonmoth wrote...

@Batteries: I agree, any reaction is better than no reaction at all, and he definitely pushes some buttons in people. What tickles me is that, regardless of whether others find him appealing or detestable, they don't appreciate how interesting his personal journey is (let's forget some inconsistencies within the story) and the context he gives for the whole mage/templar problem.

LolaLei wrote...
What makes me laugh about people complaining that he was "creepy" with the female mage Warden are forgetting that (despite his physical appearance in DA:O) he was supposed to be young. Who hasn't got a bit obsessed with someone, be it a real person, celebrity or fictional character when they were a kid/teen. It's all part of growing up. The fact that he didn't act on his feelings goes a long way.

You see, this is something I cannot understand, maybe I am a deeply disturbed person, but I found it believable that this scenario would be quite common in a closed comunnity such as individual Circles. They really don't hang around many people and I can see some sort of fascination possible to develop between the members of both groups (since they are so alien to each other), and forbidden romance is such an old tale in literary history that is not even funny. As someone mentioned on this forum (and I have a feelig it was David Gaider) the line between creepy stalking and sweet crush is very narrow and very often depends on the feelings of the object of admiration. More so, mage warden has only one (!) conversation with Cullen, and never he states his feelings or uses them to manipulate/harass the warden. I know that during further events in the Broken Circle questline, he becomes very extreme but I never felt anything but compassion when he was locked in a cage. I even accepted that he went bonkers in the finale and even though it was very saddening, I never found it out of place.

I was actually thinking about what some posters on this forum said about not being able to trust Cullen, since he was so unpredictable in his hatred. I thought that this is how he himself could actualy feel about my mage warden (and mages in general), since magic corrupted so many around him regardless whether they were actively searching for power or were merely victims of demons. Furthermore, I feel more understanding about his not-true-cause-retconed killing of the innocent mages, than about Zevran's (who I love to bits) admitting to killing innocents when his job demanded of him. It amazes me, how quickly people can glorify some characters and villify others. This is what I like about the DA world, that nothing is as straight forward as it seems and it has all sort of shades of grey.

See? I don't get it either. His crush is mild enough that I don't see how anyone can think it's creepy. At all. I can only figure somepeople don'tlike others to crush on them...?  More likely, they just grasping for any reason to hate him but in overblowing Cullen's crush, they're forgetting how normal it is. How many of us have had a teacher or some other role model we looked up to, that we crushed on? I crushed on my seventh grade science teacher becuase he was brilliant, young, loved to put together hands-on experiments and had this adorable accent he says is half English-half British Columbia Canadian. Oh my! I'm such a creepster! Nevermind that the warden was of age, not a minor. Hello!