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[Galagraphia]

@Bekkael, I want him to be happy! But it's impossible until he will start to desire to be happy. It's like alcoholism: all your family wants you to quit, and you may try because they want you to. But you will keep coming back to booze until you find a reason why YOU want to quit it.

And as it was said many times before - he doesn't care about his own happiness, sadly. But I guess everything is possible in fanfiction.

Edit for the smile:

Modifié par Galagraphia, 11 septembre 2011 - 09:18 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The thing that makes that comic utterly heartbreaking is that he completely believes all the things he's saying. He believes that it's sensible to deny templars families, that all of those things just make the order stronger. He's not just reciting what he's been told... he's fully internalized it.

Ugh my heart.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 septembre 2011 - 09:30 .

[Bekkael]

Galagraphia wrote...

@Bekkael, I want him to be happy! But it's impossible until he will start to desire to be happy. It's like alcoholism: all your family wants you to quit, and you may try because they want you to. But you will keep coming back to booze until you find a reason why YOU want to quit it.

And as it was said many times before - he doesn't care about his own happiness, sadly. But I guess everything is possible in fanfiction.

Not only in fanfiction. I truly think that art should reflect life in many ways in order to strike a chord of believability.
Just as an example:
When I met my husband, he was not interested in getting involved with ANY girl romantically. At all. He had turned down quite a few girls who showed interest. We became casual friends (I wasn't interested in him either, at first), and I was actually dating a buddy of his for a few weeks. In his mind, that made me "safe" to talk to. It didn't take long for me to realize that the guy I was dating wasn't for me, so we broke up. Fast forward several months, my former "I'm-not-interested-in-relationships-and-I-only-want-to-focus-on-my-studies" friend had fallen madly in love with me. Fast forward to the present day- we have been married nearly eighteen years, have lovely kids,  and are still completely in love with each other.

That doesn't really translate to Cullen except to say: he may not go after happiness yet, because he hasn't met "the one" that allows him to see it as a possibility. If BioWare so chooses, they could just make that happen so easily, and in an entirely feasible way, I'm sure.
I'm going to just keep wishing on a star for that to happen.  My fangirl heart will burst with joy if it ever does.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Hmm. See, I'm in favor of giving Cullen a happy ending, but I'm explicitly not in favor of one that has him making the transition because he finally found "the one," with the inherent implications that he's never cared about anyone else enough before to have that kind of revelation. In general, I'm not a fan of love solving all the problems. Love might be a reward for solving the problems, or a lever that you use to convince someone to start a journey towards getting help, but when love itself solves the problems I have a hard time with it (with very very few exceptions.)

I wouldn't be against Cullen finding love with a new protagonist, even though in my current headcanon he's starcrossed with Amell. But I think before he finds love, he has to be convinced to value his own happiness independently. My canon Hawke is a templar who is with Anders... so rather than spending the game trying to flirt with Cullen, she spends the game trying to gently persuade him that the order needs to change in such a way as to allow people like him to actually have a life and be happy.

I want something good for Cullen, but I'd much prefer if it's presaged by personal growth rather than simply being a special someone who fixes everything.

[R2s Muse]

I also want a happy ending for him. The thing is, I don't currently see him in DA2 as being such a tragic character as I think he was in DA:O, and esp in a DA:O Amell romance PT. I do agree that he's very dedicated to his duty, and believes in the core tenets of the Order. As such, I'm sure he does believe what he's saying in the ask blog about the general feasibility of having a family as a Templar (since in general it isn't feasible). I think what makes the blog so tragic is that that is a certain manifestation of Cullen from a Universe where he is still madly in love with Warden Amell and therefore yearns for something he has tragically decided isn't feasible (or he's quoting what he is "supposed" to say and imagining what he did with Amell anyway in that particular Universe... Amell seems to be around an AWFUL lot in those cartoons! <_<).

The thing is, for me, I don't think the manifestation in the blog is very close to the DA2!Cullen we meet. Even if you have an Amell import, he remembers her fondly, but isn't necessarily yearning for or tragically denying himself a lost love, lost family he could never have, etc. [to my mind... it seems more like an old crush to me, but I know this can be interpreted differently]. As Bekkael mentions in her later post, lots of folks may decide on the fly that they want to settle down once they meet the right person. I still have this hope for Cullen, so who knows how he may feel about all that family stuff once he's faced with that situation (which I believe he hasn't done yet).

Of course, once he does then he has some questions to ask himself. It would be a pain in the butt to marry a Templar, but it does happen. My guess is he'd try to make it work within the rules instead of doing anything radical, like quitting the Order for love or breaking up with said love.

But, I don't think he's against his own happiness just because he's dedicated to his duty. I think he's asking himself some hard questions in Act 3 and having a bit of a crisis of faith; but, I guess I keep imagining that the ending with Meredith inevitably has to be somewhat cathartic for him since he has finally gone with his gut of what he feels is "right." So I don't necessarily see love as being the thing that transforms him, I think he's already going through such a personal transformation. Love with "the one" would just be a fortunate side dish.

[Avilia]

^This (sorry for that R2 but you've said so clearly what I always struggle to).

I don't think 'love' solves anything, unless its the problem to begin with. I'd like to see Cullen come to his own realisation that he is worth more than his 'duty', that he deserves something for himself, then in that state of mind, meet someone suitable.

Whether that's even feasible in the world DA inhabits, I have no idea.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I do want to clarify again that I don't think all Cullens are canonically still in love with or obsessed with Amells... (after all, in my unaltered official canon, Mahariel is the warden.) I think it's deliberately been left vague, to the point where you can interpret it either way.

My favorite Cullen story has Amell not as a star crossed impossible obsession (though Obsession itself is my second favorite Cullen story, heh), but just as sort of an inconvenient datapoint in his life that he keeps coming into contact with briefly, which sort of upsets his ability to live within the status quo for a while.

In that particular story (which I sadly can't link because it's in a locked community. Grrr.) Cullen and Amell run into each other every few years (at Greenfell, between Act 2 and Act 3, after the epilogue of DA2), and she tries to convince him to come with her, and he won't. In the intervening time, she has a bunch of other relationships, while he... doesn't .Every time she comes back to see him, it seems like she half hopes that if he won't go with her, he'll at least find someone else.

If Amell is just a fondly remembered crush at this point, I do think it's very likely that she still represents the strongest feelings he's had for someone else so far. I think it's possible that that blog entry could represent DA2 Cullen... even one who isn't still totally obsessed with Amell.

Personal anecdote time: I had my first crush on a boy long ago (SHOCKING!), and then I had a dry spell of a few years when I didn't really develop any serious crushes on or any real relationships with anyone. I was pretty young at the time, but I still understood the difference between a crush and being in love. At the same time, he sort of served as the placeholder image for daydreams for a while: If I were at some event by myself and thinking about how nice it would be to be there with a date, his image would pop into my mind unbidden, because it was sort of the default image for the idea of "someone you could seriously like."

Even if Cullen isn't still obsessed with the idea of Amell, if she was the one time he had serious feelings for someone, she could still represent the idea of love, a home, and a family to him, even if he knows it's not a real thing that still exists. In fact, if he knows it was just a crush and that's still what he goes back to because he wants to feel something... that's even more poignant.

[R2s Muse]

@CGG, Ah, I totally see your point about Amell being potentially the "placeholder" image for his daydreams. I like that. And, indeed, poignant... or even horribly twisted if those images may even have been among the actual demon-spawned manifestations from his imprisonment. I could imagine those being the sorts of things he was being tortured with, whoever his crush happened to have been. Eek.

[Skyplant]

He's like Alistair without the cowardice and stupidity.

[RagingCyclone]

Catching up, and I think for Cullen to have that "want" for his own happiness he must first have a crisis of faith. As many of you have said he is devoted to the order and believes in it's cause. In Origins the crisis at the Tower I think only firmed his believe in that the Templars are needed. While in the mage origin with his fling with an Amell or Surana, the Broken Circle changes his viewpoint. So flash forward to DA2 and his belief that all mages are weapons, he is in the firm conviction in the mandates of the Templar Order. By Act 3 I can see him starting to question at least it's leadership under Meredith. Now the question for him is at the end of DA2 enough to spawn a full blown crisis in his beliefs? I think once he has that, then he will begin to question other things in his life like why didn't he do anything for himself for his own happiness.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 12 septembre 2011 - 01:43 .

[Monica21]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Catching up, and I think for Cullen to have that "want" for his own happiness he must first have a crisis of faith. As many of you have said he is devoted to the order and believes in it's cause. In Origins the crisis at the Tower I think only firmed his believe in that the Templars are needed. While in the mage origin with his fling with an Amell or Surana, the Broken Circle changes his viewpoint. So flash forward to DA2 and his belief that all mages are weapons, he is in the firm conviction in the mandates of the Templar Order. By Act 3 I can see him starting to question at least it's leadership under Meredith. Now the question for him is at the end of DA2 enough to spawn a full blown crisis in his beliefs? I think once he has that, then he will begin to question other things in his life like why didn't he do anything for himself for his own happiness.

This is kind of tangential, but I don't see him having a crisis of faith, but rather a crisis of duty. He says at one point, "I think that's what it means to be a Templar" or something similar. The question I have is whether the Order still fits with what he believes. I'd hate to see him become bitter and resentful of his faith.

[Bekkael]

@CGG To be clear, I wasn't trying to intimate  that love would solve all for Cullen. Only that he would come to a place where he was able to allow himself to feel that type of emotion for another person, and that it could potentially enrich his life.

@R2 I agree with everything you said, and I think fan opinions/impressions of Cullen ultimately hang on how much you view him as the man in DA:O (tragic, damaged, conflicted, holding onto the memory of Amell/Surana), and how much you see him as the man having moved past all of that in DA2, even able to examine and question some of the things he always held as hard and fast truth.

I understand many still hold DA:O Cullen close to their hearts, and I respect that. I just prefer DA2 Cullen and all his possibilities because I don't care for tragic tales as much as hopeful ones, and I definitely see DA2 Cullen as ripe for further growth.

I think we mostly break down into two camps on this board: those that ship Cullen/Amell/Surana, and those that ship Cullen/F!Hawke. Actually, there's probably a third group- those that don't see him as romantic potential for anyone and like it that way.

I think that can make it difficult to discuss the romance element, because if I talk about how perfect I think he is for F!Hawke, I'm sure someone else will come back with ten good reasons why he is better suited to a PC mage from DA:O. I try not to step on any toes, but I'm not really sure how fine a line to tread to keep from ticking people off. Usually, that's why I don't enter into many of the discussions, but I do enjoy reading them.

Modifié par Bekkael, 12 septembre 2011 - 02:04 .

[R2s Muse]

Monica21 wrote...
This is kind of tangential, but I don't see him having a crisis of faith, but rather a crisis of duty. He says at one point, "I think that's what it means to be a Templar" or something similar. The question I have is whether the Order still fits with what he believes. I'd hate to see him become bitter and resentful of his faith.

Ah, good point! I was also using that term in the more generic sense. But I think you're right, that it's more a crisis of duty, since his crisis is with what he should do in order to follow his faith and what the Order means to him.

It would be interesting if his next crisis point were with the Order itself, since I suspect it may also evolve somewhat post-Act 3. I personally doubt he would question his faith in Andraste et al, but instead how her sentiments are being implemented. Or, at least I hope so, because I agree.. I'd hate to see bitter-resentful!Cullen.

[rak72]

Bekkael wrote...

@CGG To be clear, I wasn't trying to intimate  that love would solve all for Cullen. Only that he would come to a place where he was able to allow himself to feel that type of emotion for another person, and that it could potentially enrich his life.

@R2 I agree with everything you said, and I think fan opinions/impressions of Cullen ultimately hang on how much you view him as the man in DA:O (tragic, damaged, conflicted, holding onto the memory of Amell/Surana), and how much you see him as the man having moved past all of that in DA2, even able to examine and question some of the things he always held as hard and fast truth.

I understand many still hold DA:O Cullen close to their hearts, and I respect that. I just prefer DA2 Cullen and all his possibilities because I don't care for tragic tales as much as hopeful ones, and I definitely see DA2 Cullen as ripe for further growth.

I think we mostly break down into two camps on this board: those that ship Cullen/Amell/Surana, and those that ship Cullen/F!Hawke. Actually, there's probably a third group- those that don't see him as romantic potential for anyone and like it that way.

I think that can make it difficult to discuss the romance element, because if I talk about how perfect I think he is for F!Hawke, I'm sure someone else will come back with ten good reasons why he is better suited to a PC mage from DA:O. I try not to step on any toes, but I'm not really sure how fine a line to tread to keep from ticking people off. Usually, that's why I don't enter into many of the discussions, but I do enjoy reading them.

Or #4, our unknown DA3 protagonist.

[RagingCyclone]

Monica21 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Catching up, and I think for Cullen to have that "want" for his own happiness he must first have a crisis of faith. As many of you have said he is devoted to the order and believes in it's cause. In Origins the crisis at the Tower I think only firmed his believe in that the Templars are needed. While in the mage origin with his fling with an Amell or Surana, the Broken Circle changes his viewpoint. So flash forward to DA2 and his belief that all mages are weapons, he is in the firm conviction in the mandates of the Templar Order. By Act 3 I can see him starting to question at least it's leadership under Meredith. Now the question for him is at the end of DA2 enough to spawn a full blown crisis in his beliefs? I think once he has that, then he will begin to question other things in his life like why didn't he do anything for himself for his own happiness.

This is kind of tangential, but I don't see him having a crisis of faith, but rather a crisis of duty. He says at one point, "I think that's what it means to be a Templar" or something similar. The question I have is whether the Order still fits with what he believes. I'd hate to see him become bitter and resentful of his faith.

No, we're talking the same thing. A crisis of faith, athough commonly has religious connotaions, is a questioning of a belief system not matter what those beliefs are.  In this case I am talking about his beliefs in the Templars.  He believes that are right, but in the end will he question that? WIll he still have as fervent a belief in the Templar Order or will begin to have doubts. That's the crisis of faith I am referring to.

[Bekkael]

rak72 wrote...
Or #4, our unknown DA3 protagonist.

I stand corrected, and I'm all in favor of #4 too, but it's difficult to picture or storywrite about things still unknown.

[Monica21]

RagingCyclone wrote...
No, we're talking the same thing. A crisis of faith, athough commonly has religious connotaions, is a questioning of a belief system not matter what those beliefs are.  In this case I am talking about his beliefs in the Templars.  He believes that are right, but in the end will he question that? WIll he still have as fervent a belief in the Templar Order or will begin to have doubts. That's the crisis of faith I am referring to.

Act 3 is so interesting to me, from Cullen's perspective. What he says if you side with the Templars, letting the mages go, defying Meredith, it all shows cracks to me in how he's seeing things. Not everything is as clear as it used to be. I'm very interested in what's been going on with him between the Gallows and Varric's interrogation. Where is he? Who's side is he on? How is he getting lyrium? That kind of thing.

[R2s Muse]

Bekkael wrote...

rak72 wrote...
Or #4, our unknown DA3 protagonist.

I stand corrected, and I'm all in favor of #4 too, but it's difficult to picture or storywrite about things still unknown.

Heh heh, indeed. I guess #4 is what we need to start hoping for. I was thinking the other group were the ones who hate him... but that's me being too negative. 

@Bekk, I agree, so much of Cullen has be retconned between DA:O and DA2 that he's almost two different characters. I try to think of them as a continuum ending up with DA2 Cullen [as I perceive him], but that is also my bias since I fell for him in DA2.

But, I love the discussions! It really gets me thinking. Of course, it also sometimes makes me worry that Cullen in my fic is OOC when he's not tortured and angsty all the time. LOL Guess that's the beauty/agony of fanfic.

On a random note... I realize that I have no idea what "retcon" originally stands for...

Modifié par R2s Muse, 12 septembre 2011 - 02:35 .

[RagingCyclone]

Monica21 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
No, we're talking the same thing. A crisis of faith, athough commonly has religious connotaions, is a questioning of a belief system not matter what those beliefs are.  In this case I am talking about his beliefs in the Templars.  He believes that are right, but in the end will he question that? WIll he still have as fervent a belief in the Templar Order or will begin to have doubts. That's the crisis of faith I am referring to.

Act 3 is so interesting to me, from Cullen's perspective. What he says if you side with the Templars, letting the mages go, defying Meredith, it all shows cracks to me in how he's seeing things. Not everything is as clear as it used to be. I'm very interested in what's been going on with him between the Gallows and Varric's interrogation. Where is he? Who's side is he on? How is he getting lyrium? That kind of thing.

Agreed. In a lot of my endings Varrice states both the Templars and mages have left the chantry. I will be very interested if Cullen stayed with the departed Templars, or if he went on his own away from both groups. That's what I find intriguing about his ending possibilities.

[Avilia]

R2s Muse wrote...

On a random note... I realize that I have no idea what "retcon" originally stands for...

Because I can't help myself - link (apologies if you knew that already).


I'm in the #4 camp - I've tried to write Cullen but at the moment no one quite fits, because I don't see him as ready.  Perhaps that's a lack in my imagination but I try not to OOC my chars too much when I write them. 

(er, not that I'm suggesting I'm actually any good at writing just that I try to stay in Bioware's framework - I've had my Origins fics slam into the wall of DA2 once - I can't do it again).

I'm not suggesting my way is right or the only way - simply that its the way I see it.  I'm also keen not to upset anyone with this - everyone has their own view and they're all good and valid

[R2s Muse]

Avilia wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
On a random note... I realize that I have no idea what "retcon" originally stands for...

Because I can't help myself - link (apologies if you knew that already).

Thanks! No I didn't... and embarassingly was too lazy to google it... Just laughing that I've been happily using it in utter obliviousness!

I'm in the #4 camp - I've tried to write Cullen but at the moment no one quite fits, because I don't see him as ready.  Perhaps that's a lack in my imagination but I try not to OOC my chars too much when I write them. 

(er, not that I'm suggesting I'm actually any good at writing just that I try to stay in Bioware's framework - I've had my Origins fics slam into the wall of DA2 once - I can't do it again).

I'm not suggesting my way is right or the only way - simply that its the way I see it.  I'm also keen not to upset anyone with this - everyone has their own view and they're all good and valid ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

Yes, it is so hard to discuss/write these chars when everything is changing. But, I also figure it's fiction... so anything goes. For example, I used to avoid reading "AU" fics, but now find them creatively interesting. So long as everyone is having fun, I figure it's all good.

I just think it's cool that this one character has had such longevity and appeal that he gets the opportunity to have so many interesting story hooks associated with him. The more fans, the merrier!<3

Modifié par R2s Muse, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:00 .

[Bekkael]

R2s Muse wrote...
@Bekk, I agree, so much of Cullen has be retconned between DA:O and DA2 that he's almost two different characters. I try to think of them as a continuum ending up with DA2 Cullen [as I perceive him], but that is also my bias since I fell for him in DA2.

But, I love the discussions! It really gets me thinking. Of course, it also sometimes makes me worry that Cullen in my fic is OOC when he's not tortured and angsty all the time. LOL Guess that's the beauty/agony of fanfic.

On a random note... I realize that I have no idea what "retcon" originally stands for...

Yeah, I think all the DA:O epilogues were basically handwaved, weren't they?

I don't have a problem believing his character grew from the trauma and innocence/naivety of who he was in DA:O to how he is written in DA2. I think it fits very well. Especially since so much time passes in DA2. Wounds heal as time passes. I don't think he is tortured and angsty anymore. Not when you get into the DA2 years. Frankly, I think he would be OOC in that setting if he were written overly tortured and angsty. (My opinion, of course.)

Can I honestly state why I can't see him with Amell/Surana without getting flamed? I'm gonna try, and no disrespect intended toward those that love that pairing. :happy:

When I played Amell, and Cullen ranted and was so broken and damaged by how the demons tortured him by pretending to be her, it seemed immediately apparent that their relationship/flirtation/love/puppy love, however you choose to see it was pretty well tainted. Also, as I think I mentioned previously, if you play a mage PC, they are the Warden and forever off doing wardeny stuff. How would they ever get together? Furthermore, she's tainted with a ticking death sentence. That's just me though, Amell/Surana writers have found ways to make it work.

The reason I started writing Cullen at all was his interaction with F!Hawke. For a non-romance character, his tone of voice is softer, he shows deference to her and trusts her word (I know some of that is just game choices, but anyway), his interactions with F!Hawke just always seem to have an underlying tone of...something unrealized. And, of course, he never arrests her and sides with her no matter what. It seems like the romance that was never fully realized. I'm a passionate revisionist (I pick on poor Anders too via time warp) and it's just too juicy to leave it alone.

Modifié par Bekkael, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:55 .

[Avilia]

Bekkael wrote...

The reason I started writing Cullen at all was his interaction with F!Hawke. For a non-romance character, his tone of voice is softer, he shows deference to her and trusts her word (I know some of that is just game choices, but anyway), his interactions with F!Hawke just always seem to have an underlying tone of...something unrealized. And, of course, he never arrests her and sides with her no matter what. It seems like the romance that was never fully realized. I'm a passionate revisionist (I pick on poor Anders too via time warp) and it's just too juicy to leave it alone.

During that first conversation, at Wilmod's camp, my Hawkes are so thinking:

"Well, hello there Knight-Captain, how you doin? "  You can just tell by the expression on their faces..what, only me? *slinks away*

[Bekkael]

Avilia wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

The reason I started writing Cullen at all was his interaction with F!Hawke. For a non-romance character, his tone of voice is softer, he shows deference to her and trusts her word (I know some of that is just game choices, but anyway), his interactions with F!Hawke just always seem to have an underlying tone of...something unrealized. And, of course, he never arrests her and sides with her no matter what. It seems like the romance that was never fully realized. I'm a passionate revisionist (I pick on poor Anders too via time warp) and it's just too juicy to leave it alone.

During that first conversation, at Wilmod's camp, my Hawkes are so thinking:

"Well, hello there Knight-Captain, how you doin? "  You can just tell by the expression on their faces..what, only me? *slinks away*

Nope, not only you. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I personally don't feel that Cullen has been retconned at all (with the sole exception of his endcards, which have pretty much been demonstrated to be hooey in every incarnation of the game). I think his personality shift from DA:O to DA2 makes perfect sense. I started to write up a whole analysis of it, but I have work to do tonight. I'll just keep that word doc open, see if I get around to it later.

One of the reasons I like Cullen and Amell so much is that the idea of having to work through the negative associations that came about due to broken circle is incredibly appealing to me. I think it would be slow and arduous, but it's so damn interesting.

I also think that Cullen benefits immensely from having the person he is interested in be a mage. Yes it punches him repeatedly in the gut, but without the whole "mage" thing he might be free to go about his business without really confronting what his business is doing to others.

I don't see Hawke and Cullen together largely because Hawke has so many other options who are far more closely involved with her life... and all my Hawkes who don't like one of the current LIs would probably choose Varric over Cullen (I have a thing for boys who write and are funny), so I just don't get that strong of a vibe there. I can totally see how someone would, it just doesn't happen for me.

Then again I'm also a huge fan of.. hmm... how to put this... "not completely happy" endings. That is to say, endings where there are still explicitly some existing problems, and they're not going to be solved anytime soon, but in general, things are good-ish. At the very least progress has been made by almost everyone involved. Things are looking up, but we're not out of the woods yet, etc.

Most people prefer either the babies \\-ever-after-grade happy ending, or the tragic-star-crossed sad ending, and while both of those are Ok (though the sad ending has to be extremely well done for me to like it.), I prefer some ambiguity.

/ramble