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[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

What if the City was never golden and always black 'n' Maker was just some douche bag old god/demon that was just like NOPE! Perhaps there's a reason why the Fade stood between it, to stop all the monsters getting through to the real world.

This has always  been my thought, that maybe the city was  never Golden. I'm convinced the Chantry is using the darkspawn/magister story as propaganda, even if there's a kernel of truth in it. If the folks making up the story saw the city was black... why not blame that on the second sin of the magisters trying to enter heaven?

Corypheus said himself that it was already black, he'd have no reason to lie about it... unless the minute they cracked through it turned?

exactly

Perhaps when the "Maker" felt the breach he was like: "Quick, everyone! Hide the good china!" 

LOL That would be a funny fan art.

Yeah, I dunno. Seems hand wavey to say it was black as soon as they looked at it.  But who know... maybe they influence the experiment by the very act of observing it, so with sin in their hears, they approach the city and it only looks black even before they step foot inside.

I still vote for black already, tho. It's simpler.

Like with the triforce in Legend of Zelda, anyone who makes a wish with it and isn't pure of heart with good/honest intentions will end up destroying Hyrule.

[Twice a Lady]

meanieweenie wrote...

All I can picture right now is that moving fortress in that awful 80's movie 'Krull'. ^^^

Anyway, are you saying that the city is only gold for those pure of heart or intention and black for the ne'er do wells? Or that it's just everyone, the very nature of mankind that makes it black? Forgive me if I'm slow on the pickup here.

we can be slow together then, b/c I'm having trouble following this train of thought too! My mind hurts! 

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

All I can picture right now is that moving fortress in that awful 80's movie 'Krull'. ^^^

Anyway, are you saying that the city is only gold for those pure of heart or intention and black for the ne'er do wells? Or that it's just everyone, the very nature of mankind that makes it black? Forgive me if I'm slow on the pickup here.

LOL  No, I'm just not being very clear!

My only thought was that if the Golden city turned black right at the instant the magisters reached it... that's some pretty good timing and assumes that their first view of the city is after it's been tainted. My point above was trying to come up with a theory for why it would *look* black as they approached it, i.e. before they had actually stepped foot inside. That maybe their intention was enough to turn it black. Otherwise, their first view of the black city would have to be after they've gone inside, so presumably they'd have to portal right inside the city or something.

On whether those with pure hearts or whatever see it as golden... I dunno. As long as man can remember, it's been black.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 22 mai 2013 - 03:47 .

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

All I can picture right now is that moving fortress in that awful 80's movie 'Krull'. ^^^

Love you for this reference!  I was just thinking about that movie the other day. LOL

[LolaLei]

I suppose I should start looking for clips and stuff for my Cassandra speculation video, I've been putting this one off for two weeks because it's gonna take so much research and work what with the Dots (which I really can't face watching again, it bored the sh!te out of me).

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

All I can picture right now is that moving fortress in that awful 80's movie 'Krull'. ^^^

Anyway, are you saying that the city is only gold for those pure of heart or intention and black for the ne'er do wells? Or that it's just everyone, the very nature of mankind that makes it black? Forgive me if I'm slow on the pickup here.

LOL  No, I'm just not being very clear!

My only thought was that if the Golden city turned black right at the instant the magisters reached it... that's some pretty good timing and assumes that their first view of the city is after it's been tainted. My point above was trying to come up with a theory for why it would *look* black as they approached it, i.e. before they had actually stepped foot inside. That maybe their intention was enough to turn it black. Otherwise, their first view of the black city would have to be after they've gone inside, so presumably they'd have to portal right inside the city or something.

On whether those with pure hearts or whatever see it as golden... I dunno. As long as man can remember, it's been black.

Kinda like your Cullen banner: You don't see the Golden City with your eyes, you feel it with your heart... or whatever. So if they were corrupt then that's what the city looked like to them, just like the Fade changes to suit its host.

[meanieweenie]

LolaLei wrote...

I suppose I should start looking for clips and stuff for my Cassandra speculation video, I've been putting this one off for two weeks because it's gonna take so much research and work what with the Dots (which I really can't face watching again, it bored the sh!te out of me).

Maybe someone can find DannyBoy for you. I bet he's got a whole shrine full of Cassandra tidbits! 

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

I suppose I should start looking for clips and stuff for my Cassandra speculation video, I've been putting this one off for two weeks because it's gonna take so much research and work what with the Dots (which I really can't face watching again, it bored the sh!te out of me).

Heh heh. Good luck with that. At least the Varric parts are fun to watch!

[Twice a Lady]

I like the theory that intention itself was enough to turn it black. It sort of gives the Maker this all knowing omnipotence, putting his power on a much larger scale, one akin with a deity in many present religions.

Modifié par Twice a Lady, 22 mai 2013 - 03:53 .

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

All I can picture right now is that moving fortress in that awful 80's movie 'Krull'. ^^^

Anyway, are you saying that the city is only gold for those pure of heart or intention and black for the ne'er do wells? Or that it's just everyone, the very nature of mankind that makes it black? Forgive me if I'm slow on the pickup here.

LOL  No, I'm just not being very clear!

My only thought was that if the Golden city turned black right at the instant the magisters reached it... that's some pretty good timing and assumes that their first view of the city is after it's been tainted. My point above was trying to come up with a theory for why it would *look* black as they approached it, i.e. before they had actually stepped foot inside. That maybe their intention was enough to turn it black. Otherwise, their first view of the black city would have to be after they've gone inside, so presumably they'd have to portal right inside the city or something.

On whether those with pure hearts or whatever see it as golden... I dunno. As long as man can remember, it's been black.

Kinda like your Cullen banner: You don't see the Golden City with your eyes, you feel it with your heart... or whatever. So if they were corrupt then that's what the city looked like to them, just like the Fade changes to suit its host.

The Maker could work like that. It would be pretty sneaky.

It would be cool to find out if the real reason was something way before the magisters that turned it black.

[meanieweenie]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

All I can picture right now is that moving fortress in that awful 80's movie 'Krull'. ^^^

Anyway, are you saying that the city is only gold for those pure of heart or intention and black for the ne'er do wells? Or that it's just everyone, the very nature of mankind that makes it black? Forgive me if I'm slow on the pickup here.

LOL  No, I'm just not being very clear!

My only thought was that if the Golden city turned black right at the instant the magisters reached it... that's some pretty good timing and assumes that their first view of the city is after it's been tainted. My point above was trying to come up with a theory for why it would *look* black as they approached it, i.e. before they had actually stepped foot inside. That maybe their intention was enough to turn it black. Otherwise, their first view of the black city would have to be after they've gone inside, so presumably they'd have to portal right inside the city or something.

On whether those with pure hearts or whatever see it as golden... I dunno. As long as man can remember, it's been black.

Kinda like your Cullen banner: You don't see the Golden City with your eyes, you feel it with your heart... or whatever. So if they were corrupt then that's what the city looked like to them, just like the Fade changes to suit its host.

Dude, if they tell me that the golden city was inside me all along if only I believed .... I'm jumping off a bridge. lol

[R2s Muse]

Twice a Lady wrote...

I like the theory that intention itself was enough to turn it black. It sort of gives the Maker this all knowing omnipotence, putting his power on a much larger scale, one akin with a deity in many present religions.

Yeah, kind of like in Harry Potter, as someone said earlier, where you can only find the sorcerer's stone if you're not looking for it, or whatever. The Maker whammmies his city such that it can only really be found by [insert appropriate persons; possibly just the righteous dead?].

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

All I can picture right now is that moving fortress in that awful 80's movie 'Krull'. ^^^

Anyway, are you saying that the city is only gold for those pure of heart or intention and black for the ne'er do wells? Or that it's just everyone, the very nature of mankind that makes it black? Forgive me if I'm slow on the pickup here.

LOL  No, I'm just not being very clear!

My only thought was that if the Golden city turned black right at the instant the magisters reached it... that's some pretty good timing and assumes that their first view of the city is after it's been tainted. My point above was trying to come up with a theory for why it would *look* black as they approached it, i.e. before they had actually stepped foot inside. That maybe their intention was enough to turn it black. Otherwise, their first view of the black city would have to be after they've gone inside, so presumably they'd have to portal right inside the city or something.

On whether those with pure hearts or whatever see it as golden... I dunno. As long as man can remember, it's been black.

Kinda like your Cullen banner: You don't see the Golden City with your eyes, you feel it with your heart... or whatever. So if they were corrupt then that's what the city looked like to them, just like the Fade changes to suit its host.

Dude, if they tell me that the golden city was inside me all along if only I believed .... I'm jumping off a bridge. lol

LMVAO "There's no place like the Golden City, there's no place like the Golden City, there's no place like the Golden City..." :lol:

[LolaLei]

I wonder if we'll ever have to travel to the Black City? If we do and Cullen's available then I'm taking him with me for a culture shock!

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

All I can picture right now is that moving fortress in that awful 80's movie 'Krull'. ^^^

Anyway, are you saying that the city is only gold for those pure of heart or intention and black for the ne'er do wells? Or that it's just everyone, the very nature of mankind that makes it black? Forgive me if I'm slow on the pickup here.

LOL  No, I'm just not being very clear!

My only thought was that if the Golden city turned black right at the instant the magisters reached it... that's some pretty good timing and assumes that their first view of the city is after it's been tainted. My point above was trying to come up with a theory for why it would *look* black as they approached it, i.e. before they had actually stepped foot inside. That maybe their intention was enough to turn it black. Otherwise, their first view of the black city would have to be after they've gone inside, so presumably they'd have to portal right inside the city or something.

On whether those with pure hearts or whatever see it as golden... I dunno. As long as man can remember, it's been black.

Kinda like your Cullen banner: You don't see the Golden City with your eyes, you feel it with your heart... or whatever. So if they were corrupt then that's what the city looked like to them, just like the Fade changes to suit its host.

Dude, if they tell me that the golden city was inside me all along if only I believed .... I'm jumping off a bridge. lol

LMVAO "There's no place like the Golden City, there's no place like the Golden City, there's no place like the Golden City..." :lol:

What do you think that red cape is for? You spin around three times like something out of the Phantom of the Opera and it'll transport you back home again. 

[rapscallioness]

I think the Magisters lust for power made them very easy prey for Dumat.

Whether the city was ever Golden, or not, I can't help but think that Dumat had to know. So it was either purposefully lying--or purposefully lying.

I mean, I would think Dumat woulda known the result of Magisters entering the City. It would become corrupted. As would they, and they'd be cast down.

Or if it was always black, Dumat would know that and he was lying to them.

But either way, for what purpose? What would Dumat have to gain by egging these Magisters on to take the Golden City?

Did Dumat just want darkspawn to be created? Was he trapped already? (Or I'm getting him confused w/the old Elven gods.)

But I mean, let's say......the old gods were trapped (the same as the Elven gods). Only darkspawn can "free" them. Or hear them, or even care to free them. Mind you, that is prolly an implanted suggestion from the old gods.

However, it sounds like a pretty horrific ordeal for the dragon gods to be tainted by these darkspawn. But if you can throw in Dark Ritual knowledge and get that going, then we're basically freeing the old gods from their prisons.

I don't know if that makes any sense, but there it is.

Another thing I wonder abt. is if Dumat was effectively dealt with in the first blight? These first Grey Wardens left--somebody's army cuz they felt the blight was more important. So, they slew Dumat, the first archdemon, but did they already have the joining ritual?

Would they have known all that? The archdemon doesn't just die the regular way. It may look dead, but apparently there is alot of body jumping going on. So, what I'm wondering is if the first grey wardens really killed Dumat, or did he just take on another guise?

[LolaLei]

Makes me wonder if Dumat didn't take them to the Golden City at all and sent them to... some place else, perhaps the Black City is its counterpart (like the whole good vs evil/heaven vs hell) thing.

Maybe he purposely tricked and lured them there to essentially create his own army (kinda like Sauron did) so that he could eventually take over everything.

[rapscallioness]

^ hmmm. Makes me think.

it was funny, tho when Cory was like, "kneel b4 me! I'm a magister of tevinter! Harrumph!" Uh, Dude...idk how to break to this to ya, but "you're a darkspawn. Dark. Spaaawn. Does that ring a bell?"

Lol. Those days are over, Son.

[LolaLei]

rapscallioness wrote...

^ hmmm. Makes me think.

it was funny, tho when Cory was like, "kneel b4 me! I'm a magister of tevinter! Harrumph!" Uh, Dude...idk how to break to this to ya, but "you're a darkspawn. Dark. Spaaawn. Does that ring a bell?"

Lol. Those days are over, Son.

It's so weird that technically demons, darkspawn and abominations are all pretty much related. Oh gawd, what if a demon possessed a darkspawn?? Do they even do that?

[Dunquixote]

Wow. I've been working on my school work since I last posted, and now, I come back and find there's twenty more pages in this thread. lol

[LolaLei]

Dunquixote wrote...

Wow. I've been working on my school work since I last posted, and now, I come back and find there's twenty more pages in this thread. lol

We're storming through the pages currently, lol. It's nice to see the thread moving at its regular pace again! 

[brushyourteeth]

Twice a Lady wrote...

I like the theory that intention itself was enough to turn it black. It sort of gives the Maker this all knowing omnipotence, putting his power on a much larger scale, one akin with a deity in many present religions.

I like this too. It's akin to the Adam and Eve story. The Maker put something shiny where everyone could see it and made it a test for mortals. And when they took a grab at it, their own sin became a curse that went back on them.

Okay, and I told you guys that R2 would think that I'm crazy, and she does.  But tWoT1 says that belief in the Maker didn't predate Andraste. So if that's the case, that would make the symbol either very important or, like we've said, a very serious mistake. But since we all have time for speculation....

It could just be that the symbol represented some sort of, I don't know, noble evil-fighting alliance, and it became attributed to the Chantry when it came along because it already stood for something with good or holy intentions. I'm sure that goodness and the desire to do right wasn't invented with Andraste's Cult of the Maker.

Just in case you're curious:
Endrin Stonehammer is made a Paragon: -1131 Ancient
Tevinter mages secretly open a gate into the Golden City and return as darkspawn: -395 Ancient
Andraste is born (approximately): -203 Ancient
Andraste begins preaching a new creator, whom she calls the Maker: -186 Ancient
Andraste is killed: -170 Ancient
The Inquisition is formed (approximately): -100 ancient

[R2s Muse]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Okay, and I told you guys that R2 would think that I'm crazy, and she does.  But tWoT1 says that belief in the Maker didn't predate Andraste. So if that's the case, that would make the symbol either very important or, like we've said, a very serious mistake. But since we all have time for speculation....

It could just be that the symbol represented some sort of, I don't know, noble evil-fighting alliance, and it became attributed to the Chantry when it came along because it already stood for something with good or holy intentions. I'm sure that goodness and the desire to do right wasn't invented with Andraste's Cult of the Maker.

Just in case you're curious:
Endrin Stonehammer is made a Paragon: -1131 Ancient
Tevinter mages secretly open a gate into the Golden City and return as darkspawn: -395 Ancient
Andraste is born (approximately): -203 Ancient
Andraste begins preaching a new creator, whom she calls the Maker: -186 Ancient
Andraste is killed: -170 Ancient
The Inquisition is formed (approximately): -100 ancient

LOL ... I'll see your quotes, and raise you a DG quote...

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

I'll have to go re-read WoT on this point...

edit: And, NO, I don't think you're crazy! Speculate away!  I'm still votin' for mistake. That wavy sun symbol shows up way, way too often in DA concept art.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 22 mai 2013 - 04:42 .

[brushyourteeth]

R2s Muse wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Okay, and I told you guys that R2 would think that I'm crazy, and she does.  But tWoT1 says that belief in the Maker didn't predate Andraste. So if that's the case, that would make the symbol either very important or, like we've said, a very serious mistake. But since we all have time for speculation....

It could just be that the symbol represented some sort of, I don't know, noble evil-fighting alliance, and it became attributed to the Chantry when it came along because it already stood for something with good or holy intentions. I'm sure that goodness and the desire to do right wasn't invented with Andraste's Cult of the Maker.

Just in case you're curious:
Endrin Stonehammer is made a Paragon: -1131 Ancient
Tevinter mages secretly open a gate into the Golden City and return as darkspawn: -395 Ancient
Andraste is born (approximately): -203 Ancient
Andraste begins preaching a new creator, whom she calls the Maker: -186 Ancient
Andraste is killed: -170 Ancient
The Inquisition is formed (approximately): -100 ancient

LOL ... I'll see your quotes, and raise you a DG quote...

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

I'll have to go re-read WoT on this point...

edit: And, NO, I don't think you're crazy! Speculate away!  I'm still votin' for mistake. That wavy sun symbol shows up way, way too often in DA concept art.

That's really, interesting, R2! It does kind of blow the book's "hey, this was a brand-new religion no one had ever heard about!" out of the water. So the sun symbol really could have been connected to the Maker that long ago. It says that the Old Gods started whispering to humanity beginning in -2800 Ancient, so they may have already believed in the Maker before they even landed in Thedas.

I wonder if anyone even remembered him when Andraste began preaching? And I wonder if she first heard about the Maker from her grandmother, or found him in an ancient scroll --- or if she literally knew nothing of his existence and he legitimately began speaking to her?

[rapscallioness]

Yeah, I do hope the artists are thoroughly brought up to speed w/lore. It's something that if contradictory can cause a great deal of confusion. Fans take the art very srsly. And we take it for granted that the visual artists and literary artists are on the same page.

We pick up alot of info visually in game. I hope what they present is a conscious effort in line w/the lore thus far.