89415 réponses à ce sujet

[LolaLei]

You actually have a good point there Todd, it's a possibility that he could go mental yet. I suppose it all depends in what capacity they bring him back (if at all) but I imagine they'd give us several possible outcomes (like they did with Alistair & Anders.) Like, maybe if you're a complete sh!t to him in DA3 then he eventually snaps or something, so that it doesn't end up completely discounting your DA:O choices.

Anyway, what would I do if he turned up mental? Probably put him out of his misery if I couldn't get him help... Though it would pain me to do it.

Modifié par LolaLei, 15 juin 2012 - 01:37 .

[vieralynn]

Todd23 wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

I have a question.
Does Cullen turn bat-**** crazy and go on a killing spree after the events of DA2?

We know nothing about what Cullen does after the events of DA2 but the chance of this happening is close to zero.

Yes, Cullen appears to be struggling with PTSD during the year or so after Uldred's attack in Ferelden, but the whole bat**** crazy killing spree thing is little more than rumor or hearsay because it was shown in a DAO epilogue slide for some playthoughs. As for canon, the DA2 codex says "Greagoir sent Cullen to serve under Knight-Commander Meredith in Kirkwall" so that particular epilogue slide is probably nothing more than an ugly rumor.

Throughout Act 3 of DA2, Cullen is pretty level-headed and able to trust mages during the Kirkwall rebellion. He seems quite sane in the end. 

Now don't discredit that slide so quickly.  It still has a chance to happen, considdering it never specified him losing it imidiately.  Just like in my Awakening slide for Anders it says he comes back realizing the warden's were where he belonged.  It could still happen.  He might just be taking 10+ years to realize it...

I don't think Anders will ever realize that the wardens were where he belongs in games where he ends up dead in DA2.

Sorry Todd23, I'm ready to discredit nearly all of the epilogue slides, including the ones where the Warden or Hawke lived happily ever after with their love interest by their side. Some of the slides are probably some reflection of "truth," how distorted or simplified that might be in the slides.

Officially, the slides are hearsay and rumors. That's all.

One of the most interesting *little* things about the dragon age series is that it is filled with highly biased texts told from the perspective of fictional characters (like Brother Genitivi's entries in the codex). We are supposed to view most of these second hand sources with suspicion.

Modifié par vieralynn, 15 juin 2012 - 05:52 .

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

You actually have a good point there Todd, it's a possibility that he could go mental yet. I suppose it all depends in what capacity they bring him back (if at all) but I imagine they'd give us several possible outcomes (like they did with Alistair & Anders.) Like, maybe if you're a complete sh!t to him in DA3 then he eventually snaps or something, so that it doesn't end up completely discounting your DA:O choices.

Anyway, what would I do if he turned up mental? Probably put him out of his misery if I couldn't get him help... Though it would pain me to do it.

I would probably do the same if he turned up mental...  

That said, I think Todd's point is moot.  The epilogue slides are known to be hearsay and rumor, rather than canon, and far too many of them are invalidated by actual game events.

For instance, after Awakening, Justice is never going to serve with the Grey Wardens for many years and keep in touch with Kristoff's wife before Justice bids Aura goodbye and leaves Kristoff's body. (Although he could have bid Aura goodbye immediately after Awakening, just before entering Anders' body.)

Likewise, Anders will not remain with the Grey Wardens to train the Warden's next generation of mages. (Although he could have greeted a new mage or two and given them a few handy tips before disappearing to Kirkwall.)

Any of the slides that are about Hawke or the Warden remaining with their love interest forever at their side are somewhat suspicious. No doubt Hawke/LI and Warden/LI were seen together post-game, but when we see their LIs doing things without the warden or Hawke (Isabela in Silent Grove, Zevran's appearance in DA2), there is ample ambiguity regarding how together they really are.

The hearsay & rumor nature of the epilogues are more fun, in my humble opinion, when they are entirely looked at as hearsay and rumor. What sort of small event might have happened to trigger people to gossip and tell tales that turned into these rumors?

Modifié par vieralynn, 15 juin 2012 - 06:15 .

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

You actually have a good point there Todd, it's a possibility that he could go mental yet. I suppose it all depends in what capacity they bring him back (if at all) but I imagine they'd give us several possible outcomes (like they did with Alistair & Anders.) Like, maybe if you're a complete sh!t to him in DA3 then he eventually snaps or something, so that it doesn't end up completely discounting your DA:O choices.

Anyway, what would I do if he turned up mental? Probably put him out of his misery if I couldn't get him help... Though it would pain me to do it.

I would probably do the same if he turned up mental...  

That said, I think Todd's point is moot.  The epilogue slides are known to be hearsay and rumor, rather than canon, and far too many of them are invalidated by actual game events.

For instance, after Awakening, Justice is never going to serve with the Grey Wardens for many years and keep in touch with Kristoff's wife before Justice bids Aura goodbye and leaves Kristoff's body. (Although he could have bid Aura goodbye immediately after Awakening, just before entering Anders' body.)

Likewise, Anders will not remain with the Grey Wardens to train the Warden's next generation of mages. (Although he could have greeted a new mage or two and given them a few handy tips before disappearing to Kirkwall.)

Any of the slides that are about Hawke or the Warden remaining with their love interest forever at their side are somewhat suspicious. No doubt Hawke/LI and Warden/LI were seen together post-game, but when we see their LIs doing things without the warden or Hawke (Isabela in Silent Grove, Zevran's appearance in DA2), there is ample ambiguity regarding how together they really are.

The hearsay & rumor nature of the epilogues are more fun, in my humble opinion, when they are entirely looked at as hearsay and rumor. What sort of small event might have happened to trigger people to gossip and tell tales that turned into these rumors?

I dunno, I think the Warden & Hawke are still with their respective partners they're just not joint at the hip thats all, they've still got duties to attend... not to mention Hawke and the Warden are currently MIA, which apparently we will find out more about in DA3.

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

I dunno, I think the Warden & Hawke are still with their respective partners they're just not joint at the hip thats all, they've still got duties to attend... not to mention Hawke and the Warden are currently MIA, which apparently we will find out more about in DA3.

But that's precisely the point -- Hawke and Warden are off doing other things as are their partners in some cases, and they clearly are not joined at the hip. Yet many of the DAO/Awakening epilogues paint an unlikely romantic tale in which the LI never leaves the Warden's side.  

It is easy to see how such a rumor would be started by people in Thedas becasue it *is* romantic. 

Thus, I think the epilogues are far more interesting when we accept that they are hearsay and rumors rather than try to cherry pick which might be canon fact. When we look at them as hearsay and rumors, we can ask what sort of circumstances might have caused such rumors to come about. 

Modifié par vieralynn, 15 juin 2012 - 06:39 .

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I dunno, I think the Warden & Hawke are still with their respective partners they're just not joint at the hip thats all, they've still got duties to attend... not to mention Hawke and the Warden are currently MIA, which apparently we will find out more about in DA3.

But that's precisely the point -- Hawke and Warden are off doing other things as are their partners, in some cases, and clearly are not joined at the hip. Yet many of the DAO/Awakening epilogues paint an unlikely romantic tale in which the LI never leaves the Warden's side.  

It is easy to see how such a rumor would be started by people in Thedas becasue it *is* romantic. 

Thus, I think the epilogues are far more interesting when we accept that they are hearsay and rumors rather than try to cherry pick which might be canon fact. When we look at them as hearsay and rumors, we can aks what sort of circumstances might have caused such rumors to come about. 

I like this way of thinking about it, and second the point that the epilogues are not canon. As per the word of DG, for example.  In Cullen's case in particular, the DA:O epilogues apppear to be null and void as they directly contradict DA2 events. For example, if he's Knight-Captain in Kirkwall, then clearly, he's not Knight-Commander in Ferelden.

[edit for premature submit-pushing]
Now, do we know what happens to him after DA2? No, and it will no doubt be quite interesting to see. For example, we don't even know what happened between the end of Act 3 and Varric's interrogation, let alone later. So, it seems all things are fair game.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 15 juin 2012 - 06:42 .

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I dunno, I think the Warden & Hawke are still with their respective partners they're just not joint at the hip thats all, they've still got duties to attend... not to mention Hawke and the Warden are currently MIA, which apparently we will find out more about in DA3.

But that's precisely the point -- Hawke and Warden are off doing other things as are their partners in some cases, and they clearly are not joined at the hip. Yet many of the DAO/Awakening epilogues paint an unlikely romantic tale in which the LI never leaves the Warden's side.  

It is easy to see how such a rumor would be started by people in Thedas becasue it *is* romantic. 

Thus, I think the epilogues are far more interesting when we accept that they are hearsay and rumors rather than try to cherry pick which might be canon fact. When we look at them as hearsay and rumors, we can ask what sort of circumstances might have caused such rumors to come about. 

I took the "never leaving the Warden's side" as an they stay together for life in a partnership and is always there for her. For example, I could never leave my boyfriends side in terms of the relationship but we're not joint at the hip.

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

You actually have a good point there Todd, it's a possibility that he could go mental yet. I suppose it all depends in what capacity they bring him back (if at all) but I imagine they'd give us several possible outcomes (like they did with Alistair & Anders.) Like, maybe if you're a complete sh!t to him in DA3 then he eventually snaps or something, so that it doesn't end up completely discounting your DA:O choices.

Anyway, what would I do if he turned up mental? Probably put him out of his misery if I couldn't get him help... Though it would pain me to do it.

Yes, but as could anyone in the game. I think the fact that he's become so balanced and healthy over the course of DA2 suggests he's no longer on that path unless some other completely unknown catalyst intervenes. As with any character moving forward. We'll just have to see.

[R2s Muse]

My question is this: Does anyone have the actual text of those epilogues? I did a little snooping around and couldn't find them easily. The wiki only paraphrases, and I never got them because I never played a mage or did the free the mages boon or whatever.

edit: the only one I did find so far was:

"Once the tower was rebuilt, Knight-Commander Greagoir stepped down from his post and retired to a life of private contemplation as a brother in the Chantry. His health failed over time, and after refusing treatment, he perished in his sleep. Knight-Commander Cullen was said to be more strict and less trusting of the mages even than Greagoir was. He ruled the Circle with fear."

Modifié par R2s Muse, 15 juin 2012 - 06:50 .

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

Thus, I think the epilogues are far more interesting when we accept that they are hearsay and rumors rather than try to cherry pick which might be canon fact. When we look at them as hearsay and rumors, we can ask what sort of circumstances might have caused such rumors to come about. 

I like this way of thinking about it, and second the point that the epilogues are not canon. As per the word of DG, for example.  In Cullen's case in particular, the DA:O epilogues apppear to be null and void.

[edit for premature submit-pushing]
Now, do we know what happens to him after DA2. No, and it will no doubt be quite interesting to see. For example, we don't even know what happened between the end of Act 3 and Varric's interrogation, let along later. So, it seems all things are fair game.

I think the most interesting things that DG says in that thread are these to bits:

If you or anyone wish to treat the epilogues as something other than rumors and hearsay, as I said, that's your choice. If you treat them as hard and fast canon, however, never to be controverted, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment

and

We don't deliberately set out to contradict everything you read in the epilogues. Even rumor and hearsay has to have some truth to it. The fact that not all events didn't turn out like you'd heard doesn't suddenly render up down and black white.

Regarding Cullen, some play-throughs of DAO state that Cullen becomes the Knight-Commander of Ferelden's circle. Here are three possible ways that rumor could have come about:

1. People understood a passing statement of "Cullen was promoted to a high rank in the Circle" to incorrectly mean that Cullen took over Greagoir's position rather than the truth, Cullen was promoted to knight-captain in Kirkwall.

2. Cullen serves as knight-commander or interim knight-commander in Kirkwall after DA2s events, but people in Ferelden overhear something about "Ferelden knight-commander Cullen" and assume he is in Kinloch Hold.

3. Years after DA2's events, Cullen is promoted up the ranks and returns to Ferelden to take over Greagoir's job.


Likewise, the rumor of Cullen going insane after Uldred's attempt to overthrow the circle, resulting in him slaying several mages before escaping the tower, and becoming a wandering madman, hunting mages wherever he can, can come about in all of the following aways:

1. While still in Kinloch Hold (during the Blight), Cullen has one or more severe PTSD-driven outbursts that either threatens or slays mages. Greagoir quietly transfers Cullen to Kirkwall without informing people about what happened (sweeps it all under the rug), and the rumor mill starts telling stories about an escaped madman.

2. There's another madman running around and killing mages, and people conflate that madman's story with the fact that a mentally unstable templar named Cullen was removed from Kinloch Hold.

Modifié par vieralynn, 15 juin 2012 - 06:59 .

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

You actually have a good point there Todd, it's a possibility that he could go mental yet. I suppose it all depends in what capacity they bring him back (if at all) but I imagine they'd give us several possible outcomes (like they did with Alistair & Anders.) Like, maybe if you're a complete sh!t to him in DA3 then he eventually snaps or something, so that it doesn't end up completely discounting your DA:O choices.

Anyway, what would I do if he turned up mental? Probably put him out of his misery if I couldn't get him help... Though it would pain me to do it.

Yes, but as could anyone in the game. I think the fact that he's become so balanced and healthy over the course of DA2 suggests he's no longer on that path unless some other completely unknown catalyst intervenes. As with any character moving forward. We'll just have to see.

Oh yeah, definitely. Like Anders could be a complete nut job in DA3 dependant on circumstance lol.

Cullen definitely appears to be more balanced in DA2 so he's likely be sane in DA3... then again it's a possibility that he could've had a total crisis of faith after the events of DA2 sank in, perhaps he lay awake one evening and thought "sh!t, I need to get out of here", upped 'n' left and turns up in DA3 as a lyrium withdrawn hobo. But that's the beauty of his character, he's got a well developed past but he's still enough of a blank slate to have his story potentially take many different paths.

Modifié par LolaLei, 15 juin 2012 - 06:58 .

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

You actually have a good point there Todd, it's a possibility that he could go mental yet. I suppose it all depends in what capacity they bring him back (if at all) but I imagine they'd give us several possible outcomes (like they did with Alistair & Anders.) Like, maybe if you're a complete sh!t to him in DA3 then he eventually snaps or something, so that it doesn't end up completely discounting your DA:O choices.

Anyway, what would I do if he turned up mental? Probably put him out of his misery if I couldn't get him help... Though it would pain me to do it.

Yes, but as could anyone in the game. I think the fact that he's become so balanced and healthy over the course of DA2 suggests he's no longer on that path unless some other completely unknown catalyst intervenes. As with any character moving forward. We'll just have to see.

Oh yeah, definitely. Like Anders could be a complete nut job in DA3 dependant on circumstance lol.

LOL yeah... esp if he's dead.

Cullen definitely appears to be more balanced in DA2 so hit's likely be sane in DA3... then again it's a possibility that he could've had a total crisis of faith after the events of DA2 sank in, perhaps he lay awake one evening and thought "sh!t, I need to get out of here", upped 'n' left and turns up in DA3 as a lyrium withdrawn hobo. But that's the beauty of his character, he's got a well developed past but he's still enough of a blank slate to have his story potentially take many different paths.

Exactly, we really don't even know if at the technical end of DA2, i.e. circa 9:40, he's still sane. Who knows what happened right after the Battle of Kirkwall? I think there are catalysts galore that could push him one of any number of directions. But, invoking Newton's First Law, if no outside forces act upon him, he's likely to continue moving in the same, sane, levelheaded direction.

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

You actually have a good point there Todd, it's a possibility that he could go mental yet. I suppose it all depends in what capacity they bring him back (if at all) but I imagine they'd give us several possible outcomes (like they did with Alistair & Anders.) Like, maybe if you're a complete sh!t to him in DA3 then he eventually snaps or something, so that it doesn't end up completely discounting your DA:O choices.

Anyway, what would I do if he turned up mental? Probably put him out of his misery if I couldn't get him help... Though it would pain me to do it.

Yes, but as could anyone in the game. I think the fact that he's become so balanced and healthy over the course of DA2 suggests he's no longer on that path unless some other completely unknown catalyst intervenes. As with any character moving forward. We'll just have to see.

Oh yeah, definitely. Like Anders could be a complete nut job in DA3 dependant on circumstance lol.

Cullen definitely appears to be more balanced in DA2 so he's likely be sane in DA3... then again it's a possibility that he could've had a total crisis of faith after the events of DA2 sank in, perhaps he lay awake one evening and thought "sh!t, I need to get out of here", upped 'n' left and turns up in DA3 as a lyrium withdrawn hobo. But that's the beauty of his character, he's got a well developed past but he's still enough of a blank slate to have his story potentially take many different paths.

Or Anders could be dead before DA3 starts.

There is definitely ample room for Cullen to become a pillar of sanity and stability, a lyrium withdrawn hobo, or complete mental case, or anything in between.

But, given the way that "goes crazy after Uldred's attack, kills three apprentices, and escapes the tower to become a wandering madman who slays mages" epilogue card was worded, that one is probably 90% rumor wrapped around a small seed of truth. That rumor has an immediacy to it -- the escaping the tower to become a wandering madman bit -- that sounds like something people were saying in Ferelden shortly after the blight. 

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

Regarding Cullen, some play-throughs of DAO state that Cullen becomes the Knight-Commander of Ferelden's circle. Here are three possible ways that rumor could have come about:

1. People understood a passing statement of "Cullen was promoted to a high rank in the Circle" to incorrectly mean that Cullen took over Greagoir's position rather than the truth, Cullen was promoted to knight-captain in Kirkwall.

2. Cullen serves as knight-commander or interim knight-commander in Kirkwall after DA2s events, but people in Ferelden overhear something about "Ferelden knight-commander Cullen" and assume he is in Kinloch Hold.

3. Years after DA2's events, Cullen is promoted up the ranks and returns to Ferelden to take over Greagoir's job.


Likewise, the rumor of Cullen going insane after Uldred's attempt to overthrow the circle, resulting in him slaying several mages before escaping the tower, and becoming a wandering madman, hunting mages wherever he can, can come about in all of the following aways:

1. While still in Kinloch Hold (during the Blight), Cullen has one or more severe PTSD-driven outbursts that either threatens or slays mages. Greagoir quietly transfers Cullen to Kirkwall without informing people about what happened (sweeps it all under the rug), and the rumor mill starts telling stories about an escaped madman.

2. There's another madman running around and killing mages, and people conflate that madman's story with the fact that a mentally unstable templar named Cullen was removed from Kinloch Hold.

Ooh, wild speculation time! I love it! <3

For the first, I kinda like #3. I could potentially see our dear Fereldan returning back to his roots. Of course, that path also predicates the existence of a Tower in which there is such a job.

For the second, I'll bet it's something like #2. I bet the "last survivor" story from the Circle was told quite a bit, then who knows what they said about him while he was recovering. Given that folks seemed to like gossiping about him quite a bit (ahem, yup, I'm lookin' at you, jealous Circle mage ladies!), I bet some extreme story got mistakenly ascribed to him.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

You actually have a good point there Todd, it's a possibility that he could go mental yet. I suppose it all depends in what capacity they bring him back (if at all) but I imagine they'd give us several possible outcomes (like they did with Alistair & Anders.) Like, maybe if you're a complete sh!t to him in DA3 then he eventually snaps or something, so that it doesn't end up completely discounting your DA:O choices.

Anyway, what would I do if he turned up mental? Probably put him out of his misery if I couldn't get him help... Though it would pain me to do it.

Yes, but as could anyone in the game. I think the fact that he's become so balanced and healthy over the course of DA2 suggests he's no longer on that path unless some other completely unknown catalyst intervenes. As with any character moving forward. We'll just have to see.

Oh yeah, definitely. Like Anders could be a complete nut job in DA3 dependant on circumstance lol.

LOL yeah... esp if he's dead.

Cullen definitely appears to be more balanced in DA2 so hit's likely be sane in DA3... then again it's a possibility that he could've had a total crisis of faith after the events of DA2 sank in, perhaps he lay awake one evening and thought "sh!t, I need to get out of here", upped 'n' left and turns up in DA3 as a lyrium withdrawn hobo. But that's the beauty of his character, he's got a well developed past but he's still enough of a blank slate to have his story potentially take many different paths.

Exactly, we really don't even know if at the technical end of DA2, i.e. circa 9:40, he's still sane. Who knows what happened right after the Battle of Kirkwall? I think there are catalysts galore that could push him one of any number of directions. But, invoking Newton's First Law, if no outside forces act upon him, he's likely to continue moving in the same, sane, levelheaded direction.

My money's on him going straight to the Divine the minute the Mage/Templar war kicked off when the rebel Templars broke away from the Chantry.

I wonder if Cullen's Templars rebelled against him and left to join the rebels? You never know, maybe they screwed him over and left him for dead/locked him up when he tried to oppose them as they left? Oooo so much possible drama. I wouldn't mind coming across a badly wounded Cullen on our journeys, heal him up and let him join the party.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

Regarding Cullen, some play-throughs of DAO state that Cullen becomes the Knight-Commander of Ferelden's circle. Here are three possible ways that rumor could have come about:

1. People understood a passing statement of "Cullen was promoted to a high rank in the Circle" to incorrectly mean that Cullen took over Greagoir's position rather than the truth, Cullen was promoted to knight-captain in Kirkwall.

2. Cullen serves as knight-commander or interim knight-commander in Kirkwall after DA2s events, but people in Ferelden overhear something about "Ferelden knight-commander Cullen" and assume he is in Kinloch Hold.

3. Years after DA2's events, Cullen is promoted up the ranks and returns to Ferelden to take over Greagoir's job.


Likewise, the rumor of Cullen going insane after Uldred's attempt to overthrow the circle, resulting in him slaying several mages before escaping the tower, and becoming a wandering madman, hunting mages wherever he can, can come about in all of the following aways:

1. While still in Kinloch Hold (during the Blight), Cullen has one or more severe PTSD-driven outbursts that either threatens or slays mages. Greagoir quietly transfers Cullen to Kirkwall without informing people about what happened (sweeps it all under the rug), and the rumor mill starts telling stories about an escaped madman.

2. There's another madman running around and killing mages, and people conflate that madman's story with the fact that a mentally unstable templar named Cullen was removed from Kinloch Hold.

Ooh, wild speculation time! I love it! <3

For the first, I kinda like #3. I could potentially see our dear Fereldan returning back to his roots. Of course, that path also predicates the existence of a Tower in which there is such a job.

For the second, I'll bet it's something like #2. I bet the "last survivor" story from the Circle was told quite a bit, then who knows what they said about him while he was recovering. Given that folks seemed to like gossiping about him quite a bit (ahem, yup, I'm lookin' at you, jealous Circle mage ladies!), I bet some extreme story got mistakenly ascribed to him.

I bet they were behind the gossip as well. Did you ever try to set them alight as they stood there slagging him off in the Witch Hunt dlc?... I did!

You know what? I'd love to run into those two in Orlais with Cullen in our party, I'd love to see Cullen shoot them down!

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

Regarding Cullen, some play-throughs of DAO state that Cullen becomes the Knight-Commander of Ferelden's circle. Here are three possible ways that rumor could have come about:

1. People understood a passing statement of "Cullen was promoted to a high rank in the Circle" to incorrectly mean that Cullen took over Greagoir's position rather than the truth, Cullen was promoted to knight-captain in Kirkwall.

2. Cullen serves as knight-commander or interim knight-commander in Kirkwall after DA2s events, but people in Ferelden overhear something about "Ferelden knight-commander Cullen" and assume he is in Kinloch Hold.

3. Years after DA2's events, Cullen is promoted up the ranks and returns to Ferelden to take over Greagoir's job.


Likewise, the rumor of Cullen going insane after Uldred's attempt to overthrow the circle, resulting in him slaying several mages before escaping the tower, and becoming a wandering madman, hunting mages wherever he can, can come about in all of the following aways:

1. While still in Kinloch Hold (during the Blight), Cullen has one or more severe PTSD-driven outbursts that either threatens or slays mages. Greagoir quietly transfers Cullen to Kirkwall without informing people about what happened (sweeps it all under the rug), and the rumor mill starts telling stories about an escaped madman.

2. There's another madman running around and killing mages, and people conflate that madman's story with the fact that a mentally unstable templar named Cullen was removed from Kinloch Hold.

Ooh, wild speculation time! I love it! <3

For the first, I kinda like #3. I could potentially see our dear Fereldan returning back to his roots. Of course, that path also predicates the existence of a Tower in which there is such a job.

For the second, I'll bet it's something like #2. I bet the "last survivor" story from the Circle was told quite a bit, then who knows what they said about him while he was recovering. Given that folks seemed to like gossiping about him quite a bit (ahem, yup, I'm lookin' at you, jealous Circle mage ladies!), I bet some extreme story got mistakenly ascribed to him.

Yes, going back to Ferelden to serve as Knight-Commander assumes that the Circles of Magi actually exist after the mage-templar war finishes. If this rumor comes to pass, perhaps Cullen is swayed by Lambert's arguments, works to crush the mage rebellion, and then is rewarded with Commandership of Kinloch Hold where he implements a super-strict rule. This could be a potential outcome based on players choices.

On the otherh and, maybe Cullen thinks Lambert is a loon and he instead works to create a new system of Magi that someone like Thrask would approve of. In the end, Cullen returns to Kinloch Hold and his commandership is the exact opposite of strict.

(or, the other explanations for the rumor are closer to the truth, and Cullen never returns to Ferelden...)

As for the crazy Cullen epilogue, we know that Greagoir found Cullen a bit too much to handle after Uldred's attack. Cullen's DA2 codex says: "After Cullen returned to his duties, it became clear that he would go to any lengths to enforce the Chantry's rule. His zeal troubled Knight-Commander Greagoir, who feared it unwise to let Cullen watch over the men and women he deemed responsible for his torment."

That phrase "go to any lengths" makes me wonder what he did and just how overly zealous he was. I wouldn't be surprised if that helped spark the rumor.

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

I wonder if Cullen's Templars rebelled against him and left to join the rebels? You never know, maybe they screwed him over and left him for dead/locked him up when he tried to oppose them as they left? Oooo so much possible drama. I wouldn't mind coming across a badly wounded Cullen on our journeys, heal him up and let him join the party.

You know, this is a good question and something I've been thinking about. I keep imagining that the templars would abandon their posts left and right, at least at the Chantries, to join up with the war. I would think the Order would decide that dealing with the mage threat is their job alone now, so they'd keep control of the towers, but use them as prisons. After all, their best advantage is to still have access to mage skills, so why not also subjugate some mages instead of killing them all?

Since templars were sort of the military reserves when it came to defending a city or whatnot, as per Cullen's boasts about Kirkwall, I imagine the land becoming sort of lawless since the city guards and local militia will now be overwhelmed.

I'm still not sure what the templars  who decide not to split from the Chantry would do. Since Lambert was supported by all 15 Knight-Commanders, then the official position of every Circle of templars is to support the war effort. So, in a sense the "rebel" templars would be the ones who still support the Chantry, and these would likely be apostate templars, kicked out of the Order. Where do they go? What do they do? Guard the Chantries anyway? Start farming?

Anyway, that's the scenario I've had brewing in my head/new fic.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 15 juin 2012 - 07:28 .

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...
My money's on him going straight to the Divine the minute the Mage/Templar war kicked off when the rebel Templars broke away from the Chantry.

Assuming Cullen's decisions are not based on the new PC's choices, that is what I expect him to do.

His commitment to the templars seems to be based on his religious convictions rather than military zeal. If he has the option to speak with the Divine or with one of her personal protectors, such as Leliana, that seems like the most likely decision for him to make.

LolaLei wrote...
I wonder if Cullen's Templars rebelled against him and left to join the rebels? You never know, maybe they screwed him over and left him for dead/locked him up when he tried to oppose them as they left? Oooo so much possible drama. I wouldn't mind coming across a badly wounded Cullen on our journeys, heal him up and let him join the party.

I also wonder if Hawke's end-game decisions play into this. If Hawke sides with the mages, Cullen's templars could easily start questioning Cullen's loyalty to the Order. If Hawke sides with the templars but pushes Cullen to disobey Meredith's command when mages start to surrender, the templars might see Cullen as a strong, fair, and effective leader.

Of course, either way, once other Circles start rebelling and Lambert calls upon the templars to break from the Chantry, anything is possible. No doubt some of the templars in Kirkwall will take Lambert's side and others will not.

The potential for massive drama is endless.  

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

As for the crazy Cullen epilogue, we know that Greagoir found Cullen a bit too much to handle after Uldred's attack. Cullen's DA2 codex says: "After Cullen returned to his duties, it became clear that he would go to any lengths to enforce the Chantry's rule. His zeal troubled Knight-Commander Greagoir, who feared it unwise to let Cullen watch over the men and women he deemed responsible for his torment."

That phrase "go to any lengths" makes me wonder what he did and just how overly zealous he was. I wouldn't be surprised if that helped spark the rumor.

Ah, good point. We were speculating a few pages back about what "lengths" he might have gone to.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

Regarding Cullen, some play-throughs of DAO state that Cullen becomes the Knight-Commander of Ferelden's circle. Here are three possible ways that rumor could have come about:

1. People understood a passing statement of "Cullen was promoted to a high rank in the Circle" to incorrectly mean that Cullen took over Greagoir's position rather than the truth, Cullen was promoted to knight-captain in Kirkwall.

2. Cullen serves as knight-commander or interim knight-commander in Kirkwall after DA2s events, but people in Ferelden overhear something about "Ferelden knight-commander Cullen" and assume he is in Kinloch Hold.

3. Years after DA2's events, Cullen is promoted up the ranks and returns to Ferelden to take over Greagoir's job.


Likewise, the rumor of Cullen going insane after Uldred's attempt to overthrow the circle, resulting in him slaying several mages before escaping the tower, and becoming a wandering madman, hunting mages wherever he can, can come about in all of the following aways:

1. While still in Kinloch Hold (during the Blight), Cullen has one or more severe PTSD-driven outbursts that either threatens or slays mages. Greagoir quietly transfers Cullen to Kirkwall without informing people about what happened (sweeps it all under the rug), and the rumor mill starts telling stories about an escaped madman.

2. There's another madman running around and killing mages, and people conflate that madman's story with the fact that a mentally unstable templar named Cullen was removed from Kinloch Hold.

Ooh, wild speculation time! I love it! <3

For the first, I kinda like #3. I could potentially see our dear Fereldan returning back to his roots. Of course, that path also predicates the existence of a Tower in which there is such a job.

For the second, I'll bet it's something like #2. I bet the "last survivor" story from the Circle was told quite a bit, then who knows what they said about him while he was recovering. Given that folks seemed to like gossiping about him quite a bit (ahem, yup, I'm lookin' at you, jealous Circle mage ladies!), I bet some extreme story got mistakenly ascribed to him.

Yes, going back to Ferelden to serve as Knight-Commander assumes that the Circles of Magi actually exist after the mage-templar war finishes. If this rumor comes to pass, perhaps Cullen is swayed by Lambert's arguments, works to crush the mage rebellion, and then is rewarded with Commandership of Kinloch Hold where he implements a super-strict rule. This could be a potential outcome based on players choices.

On the otherh and, maybe Cullen thinks Lambert is a loon and he instead works to create a new system of Magi that someone like Thrask would approve of. In the end, Cullen returns to Kinloch Hold and his commandership is the exact opposite of strict.

(or, the other explanations for the rumor are closer to the truth, and Cullen never returns to Ferelden...)

As for the crazy Cullen epilogue, we know that Greagoir found Cullen a bit too much to handle after Uldred's attack. Cullen's DA2 codex says: "After Cullen returned to his duties, it became clear that he would go to any lengths to enforce the Chantry's rule. His zeal troubled Knight-Commander Greagoir, who feared it unwise to let Cullen watch over the men and women he deemed responsible for his torment."

That phrase "go to any lengths" makes me wonder what he did and just how overly zealous he was. I wouldn't be surprised if that helped spark the rumor.

Yeah, perhaps he was boarding on the edge of resorting to violence when Greagoir decided it best to send him off, or maybe he had a complete mental breakdown infront of the apprentices whilst trying to get them to do as they were told... The apprentices may have been purposely goading him into freaking out, knowing he was on the brink of a colapse?

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

I'm still not sure what the templars  who decide not to split from the Chantry would do. Since Lambert was supported by all 15 Knight-Commanders, then the official position of every Circle of templars is to support the war effort. So, in a sense the "rebel" templars would be the ones who still support the Chantry, and these would likely be apostate templars, kicked out of the Order. Where do they go? What do they do? Guard the Chantries anyway? Start farming?

Are you sure about that?  I need to grab my copy of Asunder but I remember it ending with Lambert calling the 15 K-Comms together and secretly stating that those who appear to have doubts will be replaced. So, he isn't supported by the existing 15 K-Comms. Instead, Lambert is orchestrating a situation where he will have 15 K-Comms in place who will split from the Chantry and enforce a military crackdown on mages. Minor nitpick...

Good question where the rebel templars go, especially if they need lyrium.  

My guess is that many will go guard Chantries (and get lyrium that way).

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

Ah, good point. We were speculating a few pages back about what "lengths" he might have gone to.

LolaLei wrote...

Yeah, perhaps he was boarding on the edge of resorting to violence when Greagoir decided it best to send him off, or maybe he had a complete mental breakdown infront of the apprentices whilst trying to get them to do as they were told... The apprentices may have been purposely goading him into freaking out, knowing he was on the brink of a colapse?

What ever the actual truth was, I suspect it was an ugly incident that Cullen would like to forget. 

So much potential for tasty fanfic. 

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

I'm still not sure what the templars  who decide not to split from the Chantry would do. Since Lambert was supported by all 15 Knight-Commanders, then the official position of every Circle of templars is to support the war effort. So, in a sense the "rebel" templars would be the ones who still support the Chantry, and these would likely be apostate templars, kicked out of the Order. Where do they go? What do they do? Guard the Chantries anyway? Start farming?

Are you sure about that?  I need to grab my copy of Asunder but I remember it ending with Lambert calling the 15 K-Comms together and secretly stating that those who appear to have doubts will be replaced. So, he isn't supported by the existing 15 K-Comms. Instead, Lambert is orchestrating a situation where he will have 15 K-Comms in place who will split from the Chantry and enforce a military crackdown on mages. Minor nitpick...

Good question where the rebel templars go, especially if they need lyrium.  

My guess is that many will go guard Chantries (and get lyrium that way).

The rebel "bad" Templars will probably form a bunch of bases all over Thedas and get their lyrium through the smuggling trade.I imagine the circles getting burnt down probably by extremist rebel mages to prove a point and follow in Anders foot steps. All the good Templars will probably go to the Divine for sanctuary/guidance.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Ah, good point. We were speculating a few pages back about what "lengths" he might have gone to.

LolaLei wrote...

Yeah, perhaps he was boarding on the edge of resorting to violence when Greagoir decided it best to send him off, or maybe he had a complete mental breakdown infront of the apprentices whilst trying to get them to do as they were told... The apprentices may have been purposely goading him into freaking out, knowing he was on the brink of a colapse?

What ever the actual truth was, I suspect it was an ugly incident that Cullen would like to forget. 

So much potential for tasty fanfic. 

Maybe he'll tell us in DA3? *Fingers crossed*