You wake up and find out ... it's 500 years later...Batteries wrote...
I'm getting this feeling that Morrigan/Flemeth simply found our protag frozen in a freezer, behind a nug roast.
:lol:
Modifié par R2s Muse, 14 juin 2013 - 03:17 .
Modifié par brushyourteeth, 14 juin 2013 - 03:13 .
Oh man, brush, I hadn't really thought about it like that before. Indeed, no one but a mage really understands the challenges and temptation they must experience every day, every time they sleep, every time they use magic. No one but a mage goes into the Fade conscious (*ahem* except of course those special snowflakes, like every PC and main character in any DA property... but I digress... ). But, the Veil rips, and everyone now sees the dangers of the Fade. That would be fascinating.brushyourteeth wrote...
So.... Cullen speculation. Y'all ready? I really want to hear your thoughts on this one. (differing opinions are welcome!!)
Our favorite Templar is pretty moderate (at least by the end of DAII) and sees mages lives as valuable for their own sake, even if he is struggling with thinking of them as equals (unconfirmed, and arguable either way after Act 3).
In DA:I, it sounds like the fight will change from Templar v. Mage into everybody v. demons and dragons. Do you guys think that Cullen, and other Templars, will blame mages/magic for the disruption? Or do you think he and the other Templars will begin to see demons as the real enemy and mages as fellow victims?
I'm sure they'll team up with mages to repair the damage if they have to, but do you think it will change their thinking as far as "I used to think mages were monsters waiting for their chance to strike. Now I think mages are the unfortunate prey of the real monsters, and they need our support."
I'll put my opinion out there -- I think it would be interesting if Cullen came to realize that he'd always said that mages needed protection, but he'd always sort of treated them as if they were the problem. As if they had a bad rash that could break out at any moment, rather than someone who was being pursued by a sleepless evil only he could keep at bay.
Modifié par R2s Muse, 14 juin 2013 - 03:34 .
R2s Muse wrote...
Oh man, brush, I hadn't really thought about it like that before. Indeed, no one but a mage really understands the challenges and temptation they must experience every day, every time they sleep, every time they use magic. No one but a mage goes into the Fade conscious (*ahem* except of course those special snowflakes, like every PC and main character in any DA property... bit I degress... ). But, the Veil rips, and everyone now sees the dangers of the Fade. That would be fascinating.brushyourteeth wrote...
So.... Cullen speculation. Y'all ready? I really want to hear your thoughts on this one. (differing opinions are welcome!!)
Our favorite Templar is pretty moderate (at least by the end of DAII) and sees mages lives as valuable for their own sake, even if he is struggling with thinking of them as equals (unconfirmed, and arguable either way after Act 3).
In DA:I, it sounds like the fight will change from Templar v. Mage into everybody v. demons and dragons. Do you guys think that Cullen, and other Templars, will blame mages/magic for the disruption? Or do you think he and the other Templars will begin to see demons as the real enemy and mages as fellow victims?
I'm sure they'll team up with mages to repair the damage if they have to, but do you think it will change their thinking as far as "I used to think mages were monsters waiting for their chance to strike. Now I think mages are the unfortunate prey of the real monsters, and they need our support."
I'll put my opinion out there -- I think it would be interesting if Cullen came to realize that he'd always said that mages needed protection, but he'd always sort of treated them as if they were the problem. As if they had a bad rash that could break out at any moment, rather than someone who was being pursued by a sleepless evil only he could keep at bay.
What would Cullen think? Since we've seen that he's a thinking man, granted with deep seated prejudices he's only beginning to recognize, I could imagine him having an epiphany about mages, acknowledging how strong they actually are to resist as well as they do. In an ideal world, I'd like to see all templars/Powers That Be start to trust the Harrowing and that once a mage has shown their resilience they have genuinely earned society's trust.
Modifié par brushyourteeth, 14 juin 2013 - 03:47 .
Ah, I could also see this. Scape goating, galore! But this also makes me think. How many years did the magisters in Kirkwall spend trying to break the Fade? What might it take for something of that magnitude.LolaLei wrote...
That's an interesting question.
I could imagine people initially thinking that maybe the mages were behind the veil ripping open, but the templars should logically know (given their training etc) that even with a vast quantity of mages/magic not even they could cause a veil tear of that epic proportion.
I think Thedas/Cullen is about to realise how important/useful mages are in this fight against the Fade breach.
'd by MMG)
Modifié par R2s Muse, 14 juin 2013 - 03:42 .
Agree. It was sorta annoying how much he seemed influenced by the PC in DA2. Of course... it's your (the PC's) game, so maybe some folks would prefer that. I dunno.LolaLei wrote...
I could see Cullen going either way, based on what your protagonist believes/encourages from him. Personally I'd prefer to see him go his own way, making up his own mind as he witnesses and experiences this new threat, even if that ends up conflicting with my protagonist's own views.
He's old enough and experienced enough to come to his own conclusions surrounding the mage/templar problem, it would seem kinda weird if the protagonist was able to influence him THAT much at his age.
motomotogirl wrote...
I think the stepping stones are there for Cullen's character to evolve in such a way. And it makes sense that his biggest fans would want this for him (and it also makes sense that he could begin to understand and see mages in this way.)
However, it's my fear that the writers will take the easy path with him and just have him represent TEMPLARS and Cassandra represent SEEKERS and not have Cullen evolve much from where we left him in DA2 (or even to have him devolve as just a mage hater).
Otherwise they wouldn't seem so worried about disappointing us, you know?
Modifié par brushyourteeth, 14 juin 2013 - 03:45 .
brushyourteeth wrote...
There were companions in both games that I felt were very surprising and three-dimensional, and then there were others that I felt only had one note and played it till I was ready to break their instrument.
EDIT: Also, at the end of Alone, Fenris finally lets his guard down and says maybe he's been going about life all the wrong way (paraphrasing) and that he'd rather just be wherever Hawke is.
Modifié par motomotogirl, 14 juin 2013 - 05:57 .
brushyourteeth wrote...
But I think the potential is there for Cullen or other characters to have a moment where they go, "Oh, sh!t, you guys are being HUNTED!!!" Or, if all the demons break out of the Fade and hunt everyone else equally, "Oh, sh!t, this is what you guys have been contending with all this time?!?!"
It's like, "I knew, but I never knew..."
Modifié par Commander Kurt, 14 juin 2013 - 08:08 .
You know, I'd hope it would be a little of both. I agree that that distance necessarily has to be there.Cullen even says it himself in DA2, that "mages cannot be our friends," and I'm sure part of that is what Commander Kurt is saying, that you can't get that close to your charges because you may need to kill them someday. Same reason fraternizing is against the rules; it compromises everyone's judgement.Commander Kurt wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
But I think the potential is there for Cullen or other characters to have a moment where they go, "Oh, sh!t, you guys are being HUNTED!!!" Or, if all the demons break out of the Fade and hunt everyone else equally, "Oh, sh!t, this is what you guys have been contending with all this time?!?!"
It's like, "I knew, but I never knew..."
I'm actually looking at it from a whole different perspective. I think the distance placed between mages and templars by the latter is amazing and surprisingly deep, but in my mind it has nothing to do with not walking in the other's shoes. It has to do with a templars most important duty being ending a mages life without a flicker of hesitation. This is what Cullen learned from Uldred, that being a good templar is really all about NOT seeing mages as people/friends/loved ones.
I do not hope for the templars to go "if we had only truly known...!", I prefer the dark lesson that sometimes you do know and it hurts as all hell but you can't change because reality is what it is. If Cullen could express this, I would slay a goat in bioware's honor.
Commander Kurt wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
But I think the potential is there for Cullen or other characters to have a moment where they go, "Oh, sh!t, you guys are being HUNTED!!!" Or, if all the demons break out of the Fade and hunt everyone else equally, "Oh, sh!t, this is what you guys have been contending with all this time?!?!"
It's like, "I knew, but I never knew..."
I'm actually looking at it from a whole different perspective. I think the distance placed between mages and templars by the latter is amazing and surprisingly deep, but in my mind it has nothing to do with not walking in the other's shoes. It has to do with a templars most important duty being ending a mages life without a flicker of hesitation. This is what Cullen learned from Uldred, that being a good templar is really all about NOT seeing mages as people/friends/loved ones.
I do not hope for the templars to go "if we had only truly known...!", I prefer the dark lesson that sometimes you do know and it hurts as all hell but you can't change because reality is what it is. If Cullen could express this, I would slay a goat in bioware's honor.
R2s Muse wrote...
You know, I'd hope it would be a little of both. I agree that that distance necessarily has to be there.Cullen even says it himself in DA2, that "mages cannot be our friends," and I'm sure part of that is what Commander Kurt is saying, that you can't get that close to your charges because you may need to kill them someday. Same reason fraternizing is against the rules; it compromises everyone's judgement.
That being said, though, I still think it would benefit the templars to walk a mile in the mages' shoes and see what strength it takes to resist the temptations they must encounter. I know I'm a broken record, but I really think that if you're going to create a test like the Harrowing to see if a mage can resist corruption, then stand by the results of the test. I see this kind of Fade breach, "oh *that's* what you've been dealing with!" opportunity to still be a valuable one for a guy like Cullen. Basically allowing the templars to *really* see the kind of test they put a mage through and therefore understand better the results of said test.
Commander Kurt wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
You know, I'd hope it would be a little of both. I agree that that distance necessarily has to be there.Cullen even says it himself in DA2, that "mages cannot be our friends," and I'm sure part of that is what Commander Kurt is saying, that you can't get that close to your charges because you may need to kill them someday. Same reason fraternizing is against the rules; it compromises everyone's judgement.
That being said, though, I still think it would benefit the templars to walk a mile in the mages' shoes and see what strength it takes to resist the temptations they must encounter. I know I'm a broken record, but I really think that if you're going to create a test like the Harrowing to see if a mage can resist corruption, then stand by the results of the test. I see this kind of Fade breach, "oh *that's* what you've been dealing with!" opportunity to still be a valuable one for a guy like Cullen. Basically allowing the templars to *really* see the kind of test they put a mage through and therefore understand better the results of said test.
You both have a good point (because I think this is what brush is saying as well) and I certainly wouldn't hate it if they went this way. I guess I'd just prefer it if Cullen went "you know what, I KNOW what the mages go through. I took on this duty thinking that I could do some real good in the world, keeping everyone safe and happy, but I can't. No one can. It sucks, and I hate it, but that's the way it is." After all, the man must be the most seasoned templar in Thedas by now and he's certainly been introduced to the bad part of the fade. I can't see the guy who was tortured to the point of loosing his mind by demons as going "wow, is this what you deal with?"
I can see him evolving though, maybe learning that although the distance is necessary, so is the mutual respect and understanding. Yes, it makes it harder, but it's the only way for both the mages AND the templars to retain their humanity. In so doing, he would also redeem Gregoir (someone he may have lost respect for and blamed for the tragedy of the Ferelden circle).
I'm seeing the Kirkwall circle as an exception, by the way. In Ferelden I felt that the harrowing was being respected as a true test. Wynne was allowed to leave, for instance.
brushyourteeth wrote...
BUT... I think that in the event that the Veil rips open and demons no longer need mages to find a way into this world, a lot of that thinking loses its previous value. And it will be interesting to see how the Templars (on an individual level, no so much with policy) respond when mages are suddenly not the problem, and maybe have to admit to themselves that they really never were.
LolaLei wrote...
I think it would also depend on if you romanced him with a mage protagonist, that would turn things on its head slightly because then he really would be dealing with it "from the heart".
Commander Kurt wrote...
LolaLei wrote...
I think it would also depend on if you romanced him with a mage protagonist, that would turn things on its head slightly because then he really would be dealing with it "from the heart".
Now I've got a scene in my head where the mage PC (who has been trying to romance him to no avail) finally confronts him and he explodes saying something like "because I can't protect you! I know what you're going through and it's killing me..."
Well, something like that...
Commander Kurt wrote...
But will they want to? I mean, they don't need a mortal vessel anymore... I dunno...
Haha, yeah. Or the PC can whip his ass proving that the need for protection is slightly exaggerated in this case.
Ah, I see your point. Yes, totally agree. In some sense it might cheapen his experience if he were written as really not having any notion of what mages really go through. He probably knows better than some mages how bad it can be.Commander Kurt wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
You know, I'd hope it would be a little of both. I agree that that distance necessarily has to be there.Cullen even says it himself in DA2, that "mages cannot be our friends," and I'm sure part of that is what Commander Kurt is saying, that you can't get that close to your charges because you may need to kill them someday. Same reason fraternizing is against the rules; it compromises everyone's judgement.
That being said, though, I still think it would benefit the templars to walk a mile in the mages' shoes and see what strength it takes to resist the temptations they must encounter. I know I'm a broken record, but I really think that if you're going to create a test like the Harrowing to see if a mage can resist corruption, then stand by the results of the test. I see this kind of Fade breach, "oh *that's* what you've been dealing with!" opportunity to still be a valuable one for a guy like Cullen. Basically allowing the templars to *really* see the kind of test they put a mage through and therefore understand better the results of said test.
You both have a good point (because I think this is what brush is saying as well) and I certainly wouldn't hate it if they went this way. I guess I'd just prefer it if Cullen went "you know what, I KNOW what the mages go through. I took on this duty thinking that I could do some real good in the world, keeping everyone safe and happy, but I can't. No one can. It sucks, and I hate it, but that's the way it is." After all, the man must be the most seasoned templar in Thedas by now and he's certainly been introduced to the bad part of the fade. I can't see the guy who was tortured to the point of loosing his mind by demons as going "wow, is this what you deal with?"
I can see him evolving though, maybe learning that although the distance is necessary, so is the mutual respect and understanding. Yes, it makes it harder, but it's the only way for both the mages AND the templars to retain their humanity. In so doing, he would also redeem Gregoir (someone he may have lost respect for and blamed for the tragedy of the Ferelden circle).
I'm seeing the Kirkwall circle as an exception, by the way. In Ferelden I felt that the harrowing was being respected as a true test. Wynne was allowed to leave, for instance.
Modifié par R2s Muse, 14 juin 2013 - 11:34 .
Ah, this! How fascinating. I always sorta headcanon templars as being the mortal enemies of demons, not mages, so this would please me.Commander Kurt wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
BUT... I think that in the event that the Veil rips open and demons no longer need mages to find a way into this world, a lot of that thinking loses its previous value. And it will be interesting to see how the Templars (on an individual level, no so much with policy) respond when mages are suddenly not the problem, and maybe have to admit to themselves that they really never were.
Oh, I didn't consider this at all. I agree, the situation has been turned on its head, and it will be very interesting to see how the templars react. Now I'm even more excited (though mostly for the fanfic possibilities, this might be too complex to really be covered in the game)!
Modifié par R2s Muse, 14 juin 2013 - 11:34 .
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