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[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

I figured all the names probably mean something a bit interesting or fantastical lol.

I wonder what our next characters surname will be, or what everyone will refer to him/her as?

For what it is worth, Surana is a semi-common last name in India, particularly among people who follow the Jain religion which teaches pacificism and non-violence to all living things. 

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Has anybody else ever wondered why Cullen gets so flustered around women? I mean, he can't even talk about them to another man.

I wonder if a revered mother caught him fantasizing about a girl at an awkward moment and lectured him in a way that scarred him for life. "The Maker sees you when you do that. There's no place at his side for those who harbor such thoughts." etc.

Cullen's self-conscious fumbling is extreme even for modern audiences, but Thedas isn't earth. They don't have the hangups that we've got, and they don't seem to regard abstinence as being particularly virtuous. It's more that chantry sisters are the symbolic brides of the Maker, so they're already married. For Cullen to have developed such a profound case of the bashfuls, it must have really been something. Maybe there was some reason he shouldn't have been fantasizing about the person or something.

Actually, I don't think Cullen gets flustered around women in general, but we just get to see two instances where situations fluster him and people run with this as a defining trait (sort of like Alistair and Cheese).

Regarding the female mage in the mage origin story, she has two very interesting dialogue options right after Cullen says, "Oh, um, h-hello. I... uh, am glad to see your Harrowing went smoothly."  Her options are:

1.  I need to go.   
2.  Hello, Cullen.   
3.  Why are you stuttering?    
4.  What do you care?   

The 2nd implies that she already knows him by name and the 3rd implies that he normally does not stutter. Therefore, Cullen and the mage have at least had very brief conversations before her harrowing and stuttering/flustered behavior was not involved.  

This isn't to say that he wasn't awkward around her -- we just don't know -- but the stuttering seems to be a result of something else. And, yes, he stutters his way through the entire conversation with her so it is clearly something big. But what is it?

The *only* other times where we see Cullen stumble on his words are oncein the male mage origin where he says:   "I am Cullen. I was to strike the killing blow if you had… become an abomination.  I am glad you didn’t" and during the Wilmod's camp scene when Cullen has an equally small stutter when talking about the Blooming Rose.

We never see him stutter when talking to other women (Meredith, fem!Hawke, etc.) or when talking about other women (Meredith, Elthina, Aveline, his memories of fem!Amell!Warden).  Admitelly, Mereidth and Elthina might not be the sort of women we would expect to cause feelings that would make him flustered, but he speaks quite normally to fem!Hawke and when speaking to/about Aveline.

If the writers put thought into Cullen's stuttering -- specific rules for when he is likely to stutter and when not -- it seems that sex and death are the triggers. The broken circle quest clearly establishes that the fem mage was the "one thing he wanted that he could never have" -- that he was sexually attracted to her, and the ladies at the Rose are quite directly selling sex. As for the death part, the thought of the male mage becoming an abomination -- something no longer human -- and needing to be killed was enough to cause a small stutter. No doubt the mix of desires for sex and narrowly escaped death left Cullen a completely mess when speaking with the fem mage during the origin.

But these are the only points in the script where he becomes flustered. The rest of the time, speaking with or about women doesn't bother him.

You know, vieralynn, this is very interesting food for thought. I had pretty much swallowed the "cullen stutters around women" idea hook line and sinker, being far from an expert on the whole Amell interaction. From you interpretation above, the stuttering in male and female cases just after the Harrowing could almost just be chalked up to his disquiet with being the one to strike the killing blow. I mean... I suppose I'd feel pretty uncomfortable talking to someone who I might have been responsible for destroying... esp if it were to be my first time in that role. Probably even more so if that person had been my personal crush. Could just be as simple as that.

And the stuttering over the lovely ladies at the Rose could just be discomfort with finding a gentlemanly name for those...er ladies. Like RedZelda mentioned...  It's just an indicator that he's nervous. Full stop.

Heh, you always bring such a new perspective! I love it!

Nervous or thinking about something that is deeply troubling. Abominations are troubling and, sweet blood of Andraste(!!), what if his crush turned into an abomination?!?!  :blink:

In the male mage conversation, half of the dialogue is devoted to Cullen wondering what abomination might be and how he would even know if someone turned into an abomination:

Cullen: As I said, I’ve never seen one. But when someone becomes an abomination, something… must happen. But what if it is not obvious? Could abominations be walking among us right now?

He shows signs of being flustered when speaking with the male mage and the male mage has dialogue options to call him out on this: a straight up "What kind of templar is so easily frightened?" or a snarky "You had best be on your guard, then." Either way, Cullen responds with "This is still new to me." He appears to be a true newbie templar during the origin story.

So, adding it all together -- fear of abominations, huge relief that the fem mage passed her harrowing with flying colors, his notable discomfort with the lethal aspects of templar duties, and one gigantic crush -- I'm impressed that Cullen was able to string together reasonably coherent sentences when speaking with the fem!mage. 

The fact that he was new to the Templar Order in DA:O must have made his job as the Knight-Captain even harder in DA2, sure he had the zeal (to start off with) but he was still inexperienced within his actual duties, add on top of that the extra responsibility given to him upon his promotion AND all the extra work he had to do when Meredith started going bat sh!t insane, the guy probably hasn't had time to relax and just be "Cullen" since before the Broken Circle quest.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I figured all the names probably mean something a bit interesting or fantastical lol.

I wonder what our next characters surname will be, or what everyone will refer to him/her as?

For what it is worth, Surana is a semi-common last name in India, particularly among people who follow the Jain religion which teaches pacificism and non-violence to all living things. 

Does Surana have any meaning? Like the name of an ancient god etc?

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I figured all the names probably mean something a bit interesting or fantastical lol.

I wonder what our next characters surname will be, or what everyone will refer to him/her as?

For what it is worth, Surana is a semi-common last name in India, particularly among people who follow the Jain religion which teaches pacificism and non-violence to all living things. 

Does Surana have any meaning? Like the name of an ancient god etc?

Unknown and google isn't terribly helpful either. 

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

The fact that he was new to the Templar Order in DA:O must have made his job as the Knight-Captain even harder in DA2, sure he had the zeal (to start off with) but he was still inexperienced within his actual duties, add on top of that the extra responsibility given to him upon his promotion AND all the extra work he had to do when Meredith started going bat sh!t insane, the guy probably hasn't had time to relax and just be "Cullen" since before the Broken Circle quest.

That's what I think.  

This also gets back to the discussion we had the other week about Kirkwall's older, experienced templars probably ignoring Cullen and looking at him as a rookie who didn't deserve the title of Knight-Captain. 

It makes me wonder if he defended Meredith almost to the bitter end because he disliked how the senior templars pretty much did whatever they wanted rather than following the chain of command.

[vieralynn]

 By the way, Cullen makes yet another appearance in dragon age confessions on tumblr.  

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

The fact that he was new to the Templar Order in DA:O must have made his job as the Knight-Captain even harder in DA2, sure he had the zeal (to start off with) but he was still inexperienced within his actual duties, add on top of that the extra responsibility given to him upon his promotion AND all the extra work he had to do when Meredith started going bat sh!t insane, the guy probably hasn't had time to relax and just be "Cullen" since before the Broken Circle quest.

That's what I think.  

This also gets back to the discussion we had the other week about Kirkwall's older, experienced templars probably ignoring Cullen and looking at him as a rookie who didn't deserve the title of Knight-Captain. 

It makes me wonder if he defended Meredith almost to the bitter end because he disliked how the senior templars pretty much did whatever they wanted rather than following the chain of command.

Hmm, interesting idea. Sort of like, that was all he had to hold on to at that point, since no one else was following proper protocol.

I still hadn't realized he was *that* new in DA:O. Indeed, it  makes him insultingly inexperienced as Knight-Captain, to be honest. Convinced now more than ever that his rank in Kirkwall would rankle with the other Kirkwall templars.

But then... this now reminds me of one of the epilogues that said he became Knight-Commander, which is even more of a promotion for such a n00b. Of course, who knows exactly *when" all those epilogues happened.

Incidentally, vieralynn, do you happen to have the text of the various Cullen epilogues? I can't seem to find them anywhere...

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

 By the way, Cullen makes yet another appearance in dragon age confessions on tumblr.  

LMAO Interesting one. I think I still prefer David Gaider's analogy of the Circle being like high school as opposed to prison. But then I suppose that makes Cullen one of, what, the teachers? hall monitors? public service officers? LOL On second thought, maybe the prison analogy makes more sense. 

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

 By the way, Cullen makes yet another appearance in dragon age confessions on tumblr.  

LMAO Interesting one. I think I still prefer David Gaider's analogy of the Circle being like high school as opposed to prison. But then I suppose that makes Cullen one of, what, the teachers? hall monitors? public service officers? LOL On second thought, maybe the prison analogy makes more sense. 

It certainly seemed more like a school in the Ferelden circle. Of course, bad stuff still happened there but I'd imagine bad stuff also happened in schools back then... If there are schools for ordinary folk in Thedas? :-S

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

 By the way, Cullen makes yet another appearance in dragon age confessions on tumblr.  

LMAO Interesting one. I think I still prefer David Gaider's analogy of the Circle being like high school as opposed to prison. But then I suppose that makes Cullen one of, what, the teachers? hall monitors? public service officers? LOL On second thought, maybe the prison analogy makes more sense. 

Actually, I think Ferelden's circle is far more like a high school / boarding school environment than an actual prison. I didn't get the sense of circle==prison until DA2, especially since mages in Ferelden were able to receive certain levels of privilege once they've proven themselves. 

Given that mages are potentially dangerous, demons are associated with negative emotions (rage, desire, etc.), and unharrowed or newly harrowed mages are young and have far less control over their emotions than full adults, it makes sense that unharrowed mages are kept in towers. Not that I am condoning or justifying it. But given how fearful common people are off mages and the kinds of damage uncontrolled mage children can do (either because they are terrified or having a moment of childish vendictiveness), I can easily see how the Circles and the Chantry would create a system that keeps unharrowed mages closely supervised while under lock and key. 

When you think of it, human brains aren't fully developed until after age 24. Children and teens have a very hard time understanding and imagining the consequences of their behavior and controlling emotions. This is for neurological reasons--their brains just aren't fully developed yet.

So, I'm not really sure what a good analogy is for the situation in Ferelden because they aren't running their circle like a true prison and the people inside of it do not act like inmates. 

I think this is yet another case of fandom latching on to one thing and running with it while discarding everything else.

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...


Nervous or thinking about something that is deeply troubling. Abominations are troubling and, sweet blood of Andraste(!!), what if his crush turned into an abomination?!?!  :blink:

In the male mage conversation, half of the dialogue is devoted to Cullen wondering what abomination might be and how he would even know if someone turned into an abomination:

Cullen: As I said, I’ve never seen one. But when someone becomes an abomination, something… must happen. But what if it is not obvious? Could abominations be walking among us right now?

He shows signs of being flustered when speaking with the male mage and the male mage has dialogue options to call him out on this: a straight up "What kind of templar is so easily frightened?" or a snarky "You had best be on your guard, then." Either way, Cullen responds with "This is still new to me." He appears to be a true newbie templar during the origin story.

So, adding it all together -- fear of abominations, huge relief that the fem mage passed her harrowing with flying colors, his notable discomfort with the lethal aspects of templar duties, and one gigantic crush -- I'm impressed that Cullen was able to string together reasonably coherent sentences when speaking with the fem!mage. 

Heh heh, indeed, quite enough to  make just about anyone nervous or anxious (my two preferred replacements for "scared" with my preschooler). Of course, full fledged fear of dealing with your first abomination would be quite natural. Nevertheless, I could imagine that if he were already scared, perhaps even taunted about this fear, and then hit with the events of Broken Circle, that he might in turn overcompensate. This could be a contributing factor to him going overboard with his "kill 'em all" bravado once all is said and done.

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

 By the way, Cullen makes yet another appearance in dragon age confessions on tumblr.  

LMAO Interesting one. I think I still prefer David Gaider's analogy of the Circle being like high school as opposed to prison. But then I suppose that makes Cullen one of, what, the teachers? hall monitors? public service officers? LOL On second thought, maybe the prison analogy makes more sense. 

Actually, I think Ferelden's circle is far more like a high school / boarding school environment than an actual prison. I didn't get the sense of circle==prison until DA2, especially since mages in Ferelden were able to receive certain levels of privilege once they've proven themselves. 

Given that mages are potentially dangerous, demons are associated with negative emotions (rage, desire, etc.), and unharrowed or newly harrowed mages are young and have far less control over their emotions than full adults, it makes sense that unharrowed mages are kept in towers. Not that I am condoning or justifying it. But given how fearful common people are off mages and the kinds of damage uncontrolled mage children can do (either because they are terrified or having a moment of childish vendictiveness), I can easily see how the Circles and the Chantry would create a system that keeps unharrowed mages closely supervised while under lock and key. 

When you think of it, human brains aren't fully developed until after age 24. Children and teens have a very hard time understanding and imagining the consequences of their behavior and controlling emotions. This is for neurological reasons--their brains just aren't fully developed yet.

So, I'm not really sure what a good analogy is for the situation in Ferelden because they aren't running their circle like a true prison and the people inside of it do not act like inmates. 

I think this is yet another case of fandom latching on to one thing and running with it while discarding everything else.

Yeah, I do still agree with the school analogy... at least with Kinloch Hold. It's amazing how night and day it seems now compared to the Gallows and the White Spire. Especially Act3!Gallows and Asunder!White Spire, which honestly seemed to be run like prisons.  That was something that actually threw me out the story in Asunder several times, seeing how brutally the mages were treated and how regularly the dungeon was populated. I mean, seriously? :shudder:

So, I guess the Gallows and the White Spire are more like... reform school!

Of course... another thing with boarding school, eventually you graduate. Ideally, I'd love to see them come up with a system that once those 24-yr old brains are matured and they've passed their Harrowing, that they finally trust those mages to control themselves without being constantly policed. :shrug:

[LolaLei]

I was thinking that perhaps another reason why he followed Meredith's rules so sternly in the beginning was because maybe she was the only one that gave him the opportunity to better himself (as a Templar), whereas the other Templars (especially the older ones) had no respect for his position because not only was he young and naive but he was Ferelden. It makes me wonder if he saw Meredith as a type of mother figure in the sense that he looked up to her and felt a duty to stand by her even when her methods began to concern him.

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...


Nervous or thinking about something that is deeply troubling. Abominations are troubling and, sweet blood of Andraste(!!), what if his crush turned into an abomination?!?!  :blink:

In the male mage conversation, half of the dialogue is devoted to Cullen wondering what abomination might be and how he would even know if someone turned into an abomination:

Cullen: As I said, I’ve never seen one. But when someone becomes an abomination, something… must happen. But what if it is not obvious? Could abominations be walking among us right now?

He shows signs of being flustered when speaking with the male mage and the male mage has dialogue options to call him out on this: a straight up "What kind of templar is so easily frightened?" or a snarky "You had best be on your guard, then." Either way, Cullen responds with "This is still new to me." He appears to be a true newbie templar during the origin story.

So, adding it all together -- fear of abominations, huge relief that the fem mage passed her harrowing with flying colors, his notable discomfort with the lethal aspects of templar duties, and one gigantic crush -- I'm impressed that Cullen was able to string together reasonably coherent sentences when speaking with the fem!mage. 

Heh heh, indeed, quite enough to make just about anyone nervous or anxious (my two preferred replacements for "scared" with my preschooler). Of course, full fledged fear of dealing with your first abomination would be quite natural. Nevertheless, I could imagine that if he were already scared, perhaps even taunted about this fear, and then hit with the events of Broken Circle, that he might in turn overcompensate. This could be a contributing factor to him going overboard with his "kill 'em all" bravado once all is said and done.

Very nervous and anxious. 

Also, Cullen must have been told why Circles exist inside of tower fortresses: to lock everyone "safely" inside if the circle becomes corrupted with abominations. That thought must be absolutely petrifying. The codex says that "abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history" so, as a new templar who isn't driven by zealotry, he has good reason to be very nervous and very anxious after observing a harrowing.

I think there is more than one way to view Cullen's "kill them all" statements during the Broken Circle quest. Obviously, he's under extreme duress when the Warden+party find him. People say extreme things in such situations. That's just natural human behavior. 

But then there's something else -- I think I've posted this before here.

With the mage wardens, the following dialogue is possible:

Cullen: Why have you returned to the tower? How did you survive?
F!Mage:  Is it so surprising that I've returned? This was my home. 
Cullen: As it was mine. And look what they've done to it. They deserve to die! Uldred most of all. Kill Uldred. Kill them all for what they've done. They caged us like animals... looked for ways to break us. I'm the only one left... They turned some into... monsters. And... there was nothing I could do.

To me, this sounds far more like someone who is trying to convince the mage warden that revenge is necessary because "these animals" destroyed their mutual home.

Modifié par vieralynn, 24 juin 2012 - 07:02 .

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

Yeah, I do still agree with the school analogy... at least with Kinloch Hold. It's amazing how night and day it seems now compared to the Gallows and the White Spire. Especially Act3!Gallows and Asunder!White Spire, which honestly seemed to be run like prisons.  That was something that actually threw me out the story in Asunder several times, seeing how brutally the mages were treated and how regularly the dungeon was populated. I mean, seriously? :shudder:

How was White Spire described in the Asunder novels? With a name like "White Spire" you'd expect it to be pretty on the outside at least lol. Whereas "The Gallows" sounds intimidating and it was.

Modifié par LolaLei, 24 juin 2012 - 07:05 .

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse: The White Spire also seemed to be brutally strict in response to the mage uprising in Kirkwall and unrest in other circles. I wonder if the White Spire has always been that bad or if it was a recent development.

The unexplained inconsistencies across the circles is, imho, one of the biggest weaknesses of the entire mage-templar-chantry story plot. It could be a product of the writers changing their minds over time once they decided to flesh out the mage-templar-chantry situation, or it could just be a matter of ideas never being fully realized in DA2 (victim of time pressure) or Asunder (for reasons unknown).

LolaLei: Oh, yes! I can see Meredith playing a bit of a mother figure. There are small hints of Cullen almost viewing Greagoir as a father figure. Meredith gave Cullen a lot of opportunity right at a moment when Cullen could have been sent to a remote post and written off as too mentally unstable to serve. I can definitely see him defending her purely because she gave him a chance and she understood what he had been through.

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Yeah, I do still agree with the school analogy... at least with Kinloch Hold. It's amazing how night and day it seems now compared to the Gallows and the White Spire. Especially Act3!Gallows and Asunder!White Spire, which honestly seemed to be run like prisons.  That was something that actually threw me out the story in Asunder several times, seeing how brutally the mages were treated and how regularly the dungeon was populated. I mean, seriously? :shudder:

How was White Spire described in the Asunder novels? With a name like "White Spire" you'd expect it to be pretty on the outside at least lol. Whereas "The Gallows" sounds intimidating and it was.

I never got a strong feel for how the White Spire was during normal times.

Part of the novel takes place in the White Spire's dungeons and forgotten passages at the bottom of the tower, which is where a weird spirit lives. A large section of the novel takes place outside the Spire.

The parts of the novel that take place in the main living quarters of Spire are during a state of emergency. The original Knight-Commander (we never meet him) has been dismissed although he sounds like he was generally reasonable based on Knight-Captain Evangeline's memories of serving beneath him. Enchanter Rhys is in trouble almost from the beginning of the novel, so when we see the Spire through Rhys' eyes, we're only getting to see what happens when a senior mage is accused of a committing a heinous crime.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei: Oh, yes! I can see Meredith playing a bit of a mother figure. There are small hints of Cullen almost viewing Greagoir as a father figure. Meredith gave Cullen a lot of opportunity right at a moment when Cullen could have been sent to a remote post and written off as too mentally unstable to serve. I can definitely see him defending her purely because she gave him a chance and she understood what he had been through.

I kinda feel like despite his 8+ years in Kirkwall and all the growing up he's done, he's still very naive and innocent when it comes to social norms. It's like he grows an attachment to the first person that shows him any kindness (first off Gregoir and our Warden mages) and later with Meredith and Hawke... he places too much trust and hope in people and puts them on a pedestal only to get screwed over at a later date. Hell, he even let Hawke go if he/she supported the Mages and killed half of his recruits/Templars over the course of a decade, just because Hawke helped him out once or twice and pops into the Gallows for a chat every now and then.

It makes me wonder if he'll have some real trust issues if he's a companion/LI due to the amount of times he's been hurt in the past.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Yeah, I do still agree with the school analogy... at least with Kinloch Hold. It's amazing how night and day it seems now compared to the Gallows and the White Spire. Especially Act3!Gallows and Asunder!White Spire, which honestly seemed to be run like prisons.  That was something that actually threw me out the story in Asunder several times, seeing how brutally the mages were treated and how regularly the dungeon was populated. I mean, seriously? :shudder:

How was White Spire described in the Asunder novels? With a name like "White Spire" you'd expect it to be pretty on the outside at least lol. Whereas "The Gallows" sounds intimidating and it was.

I never got a strong feel for how the White Spire was during normal times.

Part of the novel takes place in the White Spire's dungeons and forgotten passages at the bottom of the tower, which is where a weird spirit lives. A large section of the novel takes place outside the Spire.

The parts of the novel that take place in the main living quarters of Spire are during a state of emergency. The original Knight-Commander (we never meet him) has been dismissed although he sounds like he was generally reasonable based on Knight-Captain Evangeline's memories of serving beneath him. Enchanter Rhys is in trouble almost from the beginning of the novel, so when we see the Spire through Rhys' eyes, we're only getting to see what happens when a senior mage is accused of a committing a heinous crime.

DG doesn't give a description of what it physically looks like?

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse: The White Spire also seemed to be brutally strict in response to the mage uprising in Kirkwall and unrest in other circles. I wonder if the White Spire has always been that bad or if it was a recent development.

The unexplained inconsistencies across the circles is, imho, one of the biggest weaknesses of the entire mage-templar-chantry story plot. It could be a product of the writers changing their minds over time once they decided to flesh out the mage-templar-chantry situation, or it could just be a matter of ideas never being fully realized in DA2 (victim of time pressure) or Asunder (for reasons unknown).

Right, hence my Asunder!White Spire ref, which rather parallels Act3!Gallows, since both seem to be strict (over)reactions to other stimuli... the Chantry blow-up in the case of the White Spire and Meredith paranoia in DA2: Act 3.

I am also very curious about what the White Spire is "normally" like. According to Dawn of the Seeker, the mages are all Chantry loving and happy go lucky (har har har), and sometimes let out of the tower to do "things."  However, I think the aspect of Asunder that was hard to swallow for me was the casualness with which Evangeline (the "rational" character) talked about throwing mages in the dungeon, which to be honest, didn't sound like a new development to me. So, this could either be an indicator that the White Spire has always been more strict than the Fereldan Tower, or like you say, just another example of inconsistent writing.  Honestly, I'd put my money on BOTH.

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei: Oh, yes! I can see Meredith playing a bit of a mother figure. There are small hints of Cullen almost viewing Greagoir as a father figure. Meredith gave Cullen a lot of opportunity right at a moment when Cullen could have been sent to a remote post and written off as too mentally unstable to serve. I can definitely see him defending her purely because she gave him a chance and she understood what he had been through.

I kinda feel like despite his 8+ years in Kirkwall and all the growing up he's done, he's still very naive and innocent when it comes to social norms. It's like he grows an attachment to the first person that shows him any kindness (first off Gregoir and our Warden mages) and later with Meredith and Hawke... he places too much trust and hope in people and puts them on a pedestal only to get screwed over at a later date. Hell, he even let Hawke go if he/she supported the Mages and killed half of his recruits/Templars over the course of a decade, just because Hawke helped him out once or twice and pops into the Gallows for a chat every now and then.

It makes me wonder if he'll have some real trust issues if he's a companion/LI due to the amount of times he's been hurt in the past.

Most of the time, Cullen make me think of a lost child who is unsure of what he is supposed to do.

If he's a companion/LI, I think he should have trust issues. Maybe he will be afraid to trust anyone or, perversely, maybe he will be overly trusting of the PC (just like how he is with Hawke and Meredith) until some major crisis point occurs and Cullen no longer knows if he can trust the PC any longer. At that point, maybe Cullen leaves the party and only returns under certain conditions? 

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Yeah, I do still agree with the school analogy... at least with Kinloch Hold. It's amazing how night and day it seems now compared to the Gallows and the White Spire. Especially Act3!Gallows and Asunder!White Spire, which honestly seemed to be run like prisons.  That was something that actually threw me out the story in Asunder several times, seeing how brutally the mages were treated and how regularly the dungeon was populated. I mean, seriously? :shudder:

How was White Spire described in the Asunder novels? With a name like "White Spire" you'd expect it to be pretty on the outside at least lol. Whereas "The Gallows" sounds intimidating and it was.

I never got a strong feel for how the White Spire was during normal times.

Part of the novel takes place in the White Spire's dungeons and forgotten passages at the bottom of the tower, which is where a weird spirit lives. A large section of the novel takes place outside the Spire.

The parts of the novel that take place in the main living quarters of Spire are during a state of emergency. The original Knight-Commander (we never meet him) has been dismissed although he sounds like he was generally reasonable based on Knight-Captain Evangeline's memories of serving beneath him. Enchanter Rhys is in trouble almost from the beginning of the novel, so when we see the Spire through Rhys' eyes, we're only getting to see what happens when a senior mage is accused of a committing a heinous crime.

DG doesn't give a description of what it physically looks like?

The physical description is what you'd imagine, quite lovely, architecture wise. I'd have to go get my kindle for an actual description, but the outside is soaring and white and the great hall is supposed to be magnificent. But, as vieralynn said, the tower also sits on I think much darker history represented in a twisting series of abandoned dungeons and torture chambers called "the Pit." These dungeons sound, in a word, horrible, and they seem to throw the mages down there for any passing transgression.

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei: Oh, yes! I can see Meredith playing a bit of a mother figure. There are small hints of Cullen almost viewing Greagoir as a father figure. Meredith gave Cullen a lot of opportunity right at a moment when Cullen could have been sent to a remote post and written off as too mentally unstable to serve. I can definitely see him defending her purely because she gave him a chance and she understood what he had been through.

I kinda feel like despite his 8+ years in Kirkwall and all the growing up he's done, he's still very naive and innocent when it comes to social norms. It's like he grows an attachment to the first person that shows him any kindness (first off Gregoir and our Warden mages) and later with Meredith and Hawke... he places too much trust and hope in people and puts them on a pedestal only to get screwed over at a later date. Hell, he even let Hawke go if he/she supported the Mages and killed half of his recruits/Templars over the course of a decade, just because Hawke helped him out once or twice and pops into the Gallows for a chat every now and then.

It makes me wonder if he'll have some real trust issues if he's a companion/LI due to the amount of times he's been hurt in the past.

Most of the time, Cullen make me think of a lost child who is unsure of what he is supposed to do.

If he's a companion/LI, I think he should have trust issues. Maybe he will be afraid to trust anyone or, perversely, maybe he will be overly trusting of the PC (just like how he is with Hawke and Meredith) until some major crisis point occurs and Cullen no longer knows if he can trust the PC any longer. At that point, maybe Cullen leaves the party and only returns under certain conditions? 

^This. Trust issues would be a great arc for his character in the future... esp given his misplaced trust in the past. Love it.

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse: The White Spire also seemed to be brutally strict in response to the mage uprising in Kirkwall and unrest in other circles. I wonder if the White Spire has always been that bad or if it was a recent development.

The unexplained inconsistencies across the circles is, imho, one of the biggest weaknesses of the entire mage-templar-chantry story plot. It could be a product of the writers changing their minds over time once they decided to flesh out the mage-templar-chantry situation, or it could just be a matter of ideas never being fully realized in DA2 (victim of time pressure) or Asunder (for reasons unknown).

Right, hence my Asunder!White Spire ref, which rather parallels Act3!Gallows, since both seem to be strict (over)reactions to other stimuli... the Chantry blow-up in the case of the White Spire and Meredith paranoia in DA2: Act 3.

I am also very curious about what the White Spire is "normally" like. According to Dawn of the Seeker, the mages are all Chantry loving and happy go lucky (har har har), and sometimes let out of the tower to do "things."  However, I think the aspect of Asunder that was hard to swallow for me was the casualness with which Evangeline (the "rational" character) talked about throwing mages in the dungeon, which to be honest, didn't sound like a new development to me. So, this could either be an indicator that the White Spire has always been more strict than the Fereldan Tower, or like you say, just another example of inconsistent writing.  Honestly, I'd put my money on BOTH.

I still haven't had a chance to watch Dawn of the Seeker. (Need to tell amazon to take more of my money:P)

It may also be that we just didn't get a chance to see what happens to "bad" mages in DA:O. Anders was in the Ferelden circle and he spent time in solitary confinement. Comparing it to the high school analogy, if most students are well behaved and do what their teachers expect, they don't know what it is like for the ones who get sent to detention. Maybe most mages in the Ferelden circle did what they were told to do and punishment was rare purely because they did nothing to warrant it. Yet, for the templars, the situation is different. They're the ones who must keep an eye out for suspicious behavior and deal out punishment when a mage is caught doing something dangerous or wrong. Once a templar works their way up the ranks like Evangeline did, she's probably seen it all and she might even wonder why mages bother to start trouble when they know it will result in punishment. That attitute would account for her casualness about tossing mages into the dungeon, perhaps?

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei: Oh, yes! I can see Meredith playing a bit of a mother figure. There are small hints of Cullen almost viewing Greagoir as a father figure. Meredith gave Cullen a lot of opportunity right at a moment when Cullen could have been sent to a remote post and written off as too mentally unstable to serve. I can definitely see him defending her purely because she gave him a chance and she understood what he had been through.

I kinda feel like despite his 8+ years in Kirkwall and all the growing up he's done, he's still very naive and innocent when it comes to social norms. It's like he grows an attachment to the first person that shows him any kindness (first off Gregoir and our Warden mages) and later with Meredith and Hawke... he places too much trust and hope in people and puts them on a pedestal only to get screwed over at a later date. Hell, he even let Hawke go if he/she supported the Mages and killed half of his recruits/Templars over the course of a decade, just because Hawke helped him out once or twice and pops into the Gallows for a chat every now and then.

It makes me wonder if he'll have some real trust issues if he's a companion/LI due to the amount of times he's been hurt in the past.

Most of the time, Cullen make me think of a lost child who is unsure of what he is supposed to do.

If he's a companion/LI, I think he should have trust issues. Maybe he will be afraid to trust anyone or, perversely, maybe he will be overly trusting of the PC (just like how he is with Hawke and Meredith) until some major crisis point occurs and Cullen no longer knows if he can trust the PC any longer. At that point, maybe Cullen leaves the party and only returns under certain conditions? 

That last part sounds like the Shepard/Kaidan Shepard/Ashley thing in ME2 & ME3 lol.

But you're right, Cullen does have a lost child feel to his personality. Tbh, I don't think he done the best job of being Knight-Captain, sure he can fight and lead Templars into battle... but aside from that he seemed to fail epically at his job (but that could just be down to bad writing.) Either way, he was far too young to be put into a position like that... which makes me think that Meredith already had a few mental issues prior to getting her hands on the lyrium idol.

I'm half expecting to find him on a downer at some point during DA3 and go into a rant about how he's a rubbish Templar etc.