LolaLei wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
LolaLei wrote...
Here's another question:
If they confirm that Cullen is indeed a companion/LI in DA3, what things are you worried about that they could potentially do to him? For example, making him ugly, killing him off, giving him a new voice actor etc.
Yes.
LOL, anything else?
LolaLei wrote...
Here's another question:
If they confirm that Cullen is indeed a companion/LI in DA3, what things are you worried about that they could potentially do to him? For example, making him ugly, killing him off, giving him a new voice actor etc. What sort of things would you not want to see from him romance/storyline/backstory wise? For example, making him a womaniser.
vieralynn wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
You know, DG has an interesting comment about this ... somewhere. Probably the Thedas UK interview? He talks about how they made certain choices because western culture always tends to side with the underdog. So, it seems a really hard balance to strike, keeping both sides equally good/bad, while recognizing that your target audience will naturally side with one of them no matter what. Seems like you'd want to weight the other side then, but then how much do you weight it? Tough indeed.LolaLei wrote...
Y'know, I really disliked how there was only maybe 3 sympathetic Templar characters in DA2, 2 of which you only see briefly. I know they portrayed almost every mage in Kirkwall as mad or a blood Mage, but they always made a point of showing us that it was just retaliationdue to the Templars and Meredith treating them badly. DG said that neither the Mages or the Templars are supposed to be ultimately "bad" or "good" but I think they could have done a better job at showing us the plight that the Templars have to deal with on a day to day basis. It wouldn't have taken much for them to give us a few flash backs of Cullen's torture in Ferelden or had him go into a bit more detail about it, maybe even shown us a Templar suffering from severe lyrium withdrawl symptoms, or a Templar caught having a relationship with one of the Gallows Mages, to which Meredith reacts by making said Templar strike down his lover as punishment (thus showing us the Knight Commanders gradual descent into madness.)
You know, if I were on the dev team at this point I would yell, "Eureka!" and say, "why don't we also write companion short stories to flesh out some of the story we can't tell ingame??"
This is a place where I need to respectfully disagree with DG's comment and ask him to think a little deeper and broader. (which, I suspect, he already has ^^)
People around the world tend to side with the underdog.
The problem -- and it is a huge problem -- is that the story fails to show how dangerous mages are such that the player feels real fear.
The codex talks about abominations as a rare, cataclysmic event yet our Hawkes and Wardens see many abominations and take them down with ease. Likewise, the act of freeing someone from demon possession is an extremely rare event (noted in the codex and, if I remember correctly, in Asunder) yet our Warden, Hawke, and Rhys+Wynne all have opportunities to successfully perform this supposedly herculean act. Many common people supposedly fear mages, yet the only strong taste of it we feel first hand is during that very tense scene in a pub in Asunder. Many parents of mage children willing wish to get rid of these "sinful creatures," yet we see Isolde do everything she can to keep Conner (even though a disaster occurs). Finally, if we play a mage Warden or mage Hawke, we never feel any sense of fear that our own powers and emotions might betray us.
So, when DG talks about players not seeing mages as potentially dangerous despite the fact that there is ample evidence in the games and books that they are, the problem is that the player is never made to feel the danger or the associated fear. Even the (supposed) horrors of blood magic are glossed over.
Cullen's strongly worded concerns in Act 1 of DA2 come off as the rantings of a bigot, Jowan's and Merrill's blood magic can be easily overlooked, and the entire reason why mage children and their uncontrolled emotions/magic can cause problems is completely glossed over.
Don't get me wrong: I think the concept of magic in Thedas is completely brilliant. I love the fact that magic, the fade, and fade spirits and demons are directly to different emotional states and human experiences (rage, justice, etc.), but the concept isn't explored enough in the games or the books. It is far too easy to see the templars as entirely unnecessary (even though Wynne strongly disagrees!) and to see Anders' position on mage freedom as the *only* solution to the problem or a bloody revolution as the only possible response (it isn't but, from a writerly perspective, Anders needs to play the role he plays in order to push plot points forward and set up the war, thus he needs to do something that shatters trust between templars, mages, and the chantry. successful revolutionary tactics for ending oppression work to build trust, not shatter it, but this leads me into a huge academic meta that I've already posted to tumblr some time ago…).
So, my point is that Dragon Age does something really interesting and really risky: it shows us a very complex world through the eyes of characters who represent atypical viewpoints. We never get to directly feel the fears that other people have unless we work hard to empathize with them and carefully read all of the codices.
More short stories would help but I think the PCs need to directly experience the danger and fear.
Hmm, really good point. That scene in the inn in Asunder was almost... jarring, since it was so contrary to how people normally treat you in the game when you're a mage. The hate and the scapegoating was really vicious. And yet, the "bad" mages you typically run into are all practically mustache twirling black hats, not really giving a true sense of the ubiquitous danger of magic. Even the cautionary tale of Tevinter is useless since we haven't really seen that first hand... minus a small window into one particular mage-slave relationship.vieralynn wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
You know, DG has an interesting comment about this ... somewhere. Probably the Thedas UK interview? He talks about how they made certain choices because western culture always tends to side with the underdog. So, it seems a really hard balance to strike, keeping both sides equally good/bad, while recognizing that your target audience will naturally side with one of them no matter what. Seems like you'd want to weight the other side then, but then how much do you weight it? Tough indeed.LolaLei wrote...
Y'know, I really disliked how there was only maybe 3 sympathetic Templar characters in DA2, 2 of which you only see briefly. I know they portrayed almost every mage in Kirkwall as mad or a blood Mage, but they always made a point of showing us that it was just retaliationdue to the Templars and Meredith treating them badly. DG said that neither the Mages or the Templars are supposed to be ultimately "bad" or "good" but I think they could have done a better job at showing us the plight that the Templars have to deal with on a day to day basis. It wouldn't have taken much for them to give us a few flash backs of Cullen's torture in Ferelden or had him go into a bit more detail about it, maybe even shown us a Templar suffering from severe lyrium withdrawl symptoms, or a Templar caught having a relationship with one of the Gallows Mages, to which Meredith reacts by making said Templar strike down his lover as punishment (thus showing us the Knight Commanders gradual descent into madness.)
You know, if I were on the dev team at this point I would yell, "Eureka!" and say, "why don't we also write companion short stories to flesh out some of the story we can't tell ingame??"
This is a place where I need to respectfully disagree with DG's comment and ask him to think a little deeper and broader. (which, I suspect, he already has ^^)
People around the world tend to side with the underdog.
The problem -- and it is a huge problem -- is that the story fails to show how dangerous mages are such that the player feels real fear.
The codex talks about abominations as a rare, cataclysmic event yet our Hawkes and Wardens see many abominations and take them down with ease. Likewise, the act of freeing someone from demon possession is an extremely rare event (noted in the codex and, if I remember correctly, in Asunder) yet our Warden, Hawke, and Rhys+Wynne all have opportunities to successfully perform this supposedly herculean act. Many common people supposedly fear mages, yet the only strong taste of it we feel first hand is during that very tense scene in a pub in Asunder. Many parents of mage children willing wish to get rid of these "sinful creatures," yet we see Isolde do everything she can to keep Conner (even though a disaster occurs). Finally, if we play a mage Warden or mage Hawke, we never feel any sense of fear that our own powers and emotions might betray us.
So, when DG talks about players not seeing mages as potentially dangerous despite the fact that there is ample evidence in the games and books that they are, the problem is that the player is never made to feel the danger or the associated fear. Even the (supposed) horrors of blood magic are glossed over.
Cullen's strongly worded concerns in Act 1 of DA2 come off as the rantings of a bigot, Jowan's and Merrill's blood magic can be easily overlooked, and the entire reason why mage children and their uncontrolled emotions/magic can cause problems is completely glossed over.
Don't get me wrong: I think the concept of magic in Thedas is completely brilliant. I love the fact that magic, the fade, and fade spirits and demons are directly to different emotional states and human experiences (rage, justice, etc.), but the concept isn't explored enough in the games or the books. It is far too easy to see the templars as entirely unnecessary (even though Wynne strongly disagrees!) and to see Anders' position on mage freedom as the *only* solution to the problem or a bloody revolution as the only possible response (it isn't but, from a writerly perspective, Anders needs to play the role he plays in order to push plot points forward and set up the war, thus he needs to do something that shatters trust between templars, mages, and the chantry. successful revolutionary tactics for ending oppression work to build trust, not shatter it, but this leads me into a huge academic meta that I've already posted to tumblr some time ago…).
So, my point is that Dragon Age does something really interesting and really risky: it shows us a very complex world through the eyes of characters who represent atypical viewpoints. We never get to directly feel the fears that other people have unless we work hard to empathize with them and carefully read all of the codices.
More short stories would help but I think the PCs need to directly experience the danger and fear.
Modifié par LolaLei, 25 juin 2012 - 02:17 .
adurnal wrote...
Hello there. Is this private or can anybody chime in?
MissRedZelda wrote...
LolaLei wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
LolaLei wrote...
Here's another question:
If they confirm that Cullen is indeed a companion/LI in DA3, what things are you worried about that they could potentially do to him? For example, making him ugly, killing him off, giving him a new voice actor etc.
Yes.
LOL, anything else?
Greg Ellis stays. End of story.
adurnal wrote...
Hello there. Is this private or can anybody chime in?
LOL I'm worried they will:LolaLei wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
LolaLei wrote...
Here's another question:
If they confirm that Cullen is indeed a companion/LI in DA3, what things are you worried about that they could potentially do to him? For example, making him ugly, killing him off, giving him a new voice actor etc.
Yes.
LOL, anything else?
LolaLei wrote...
Agreed. Like for example, maybe seeing your LI succumb to blood mage influence or actually become a blood mage secretly, yet slowly you see their personality change for the worse as they being to fall prey to demons, then you would either have to kill them or go into the fade to save them... but it shouldn't be easy, and it should be poignant and dangerous.
MissRedZelda wrote...
Greg Ellis stays. End of story.
Welcome, and please do!adurnal wrote...
Hello there. Is this private or can anybody chime in?
adurnal wrote...
I have to say, i hope they make Cullen a LI/Companion in DA3.
*ahem* You mean, like what should have happened to Merrill...?LolaLei wrote...
Agreed. Like for example, maybe seeing your LI succumb to blood mage influence or actually become a blood mage secretly, yet slowly you see their personality change for the worse as they being to fall prey to demons, then you would either have to kill them or go into the fade to save them... but it shouldn't be easy, and it should be poignant and dangerous.
Indeed, something like that would have driven the point home much more effectively than, "I'm a blood mage, I can handle it!" and then she... you know, does just that.
meanieweenie wrote...
MissRedZelda wrote...
Greg Ellis stays. End of story.
I think I may have to agree with this as well. I have a thing for a guy's voice. Fenris and Alistair did it for me too.
LOL QFTLolaLei wrote...
adurnal wrote...
I have to say, i hope they make Cullen a LI/Companion in DA3.
Lol, you're gonna fit in here perfectly!
R2s Muse wrote...
Hmm, really good point. That scene in the inn in Asunder was almost... jarring, since it was so contrary to how people normally treat you in the game when you're a mage. The hate and the scapegoating was really vicious. And yet, the "bad" mages you typically run into are all practically mustache twirling black hats, not really giving a true sense of the ubiquitous danger of magic. Even the cautionary tale of Tevinter is useless since we haven't really seen that first hand... minus a small window into one particular mage-slave relationship.
Honestly, I don't care if he looks as if he ate every pie in Orlais, as long as he shows up. There was something about that tension-diffusing humor and patient empathy that I found entirely endearing. Cassandra was nothing but rotten to him, but he was still able to treat her with compassion and respect. Based on how well-liked he was by the other Circle mages, I would be surprised to learn that his kindness was based on attraction alone. And Byron liked and trusted him. He struck me as an excellent judge of character.R2s Muse wrote...
@Berelinde, I would also love Galyan to show up. But I just thought of something... are you at all worried that they'd ruin his model for the new game?? I mean, Cass was pretty close to her DA2 incarnation, but then... there's Alistair.
MissRedZelda wrote...
meanieweenie wrote...
MissRedZelda wrote...
Greg Ellis stays. End of story.
I think I may have to agree with this as well. I have a thing for a guy's voice. Fenris and Alistair did it for me too.
A good script helped as well. In Alistair's case espcially.
Ohg, and Steve Valentine was in a Disney live action series for a couple of years. "I'm In the Band", is was called. I've watched a few episodes, and it's . . . kiddish, honestly. But Mr. Valentine and his voice makes it for me
R2s Muse wrote...
LOL I'm worried they will:LolaLei wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
LolaLei wrote...
Here's another question:
If they confirm that Cullen is indeed a companion/LI in DA3, what things are you worried about that they could potentially do to him? For example, making him ugly, killing him off, giving him a new voice actor etc.
Yes.
LOL, anything else?
make him ugly
kill him off before the game
kill him off as some tragic plot point in game
give him a new voice actor
ignore the character evolution during DA2, and reset him at "mages can't be treated like people"
make him lyrium addled (which frankly I have no real interest in seeing first hand... I want Cullen to be Cullen; he
can have issues, but I don't want his fundamental personality to change and that could be a possibility)
make him unlikeable (once you really get to know him, you find out he's actually just a d!ck)
have him run off with Amell/Surana (sorry 'shippers!)
switch him back to twohander (ok... not really)
lose the skirt (Maker, nooooooo!)
Welcome!adurnal wrote...
Hello there. Is this private or can anybody chime in?
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