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[R2s Muse]

littlenikki wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Bwahaha! I love you for this one!

littlenikki wrote...

 Don't hit me, I bruise easily  Can't believe I never thought of doing this before. 

Oh-em-gee, this is amazing!  

You know, I can't stop laughing at this one. littlenikki, have you thought about posting it in the meme thread?? LOL

I took a glance at that thread right after I posted it here to see if anything like it had already been done, but I wasn't sure if that thread was even active enough anymore to bother. If anyone else wants to post it, feel free!

Edit: Another great picture Wiedzmin!

It goes through waves, but seems to have stamina.

[R2s Muse]

Wiedzmin182009 wrote...

My Grey Warden. What do you think?

Nice!

[Danny Boy 7]

Wiedzmin182009 wrote...

My Grey Warden. What do you think?

That looks AWESOME Wiedzmin. I might ask you to make me something one day  

[R2s Muse]

OK, not Culleny... except by a very very thin connection via Cullen's erm, experience with demons in the past. But check out this loverly male desire demon.

Desire demon by ~bluewickedbehemoth
http://www.deviantar...demon-384916698

[R2s Muse]

Aaaaand, some actual Cullen.

Cullen tarot: 12 by emanonix [You should also check out the rest of her Tarot of Dragon Age!]


What Counts - Early Morning by vieralynn [Slightly shameless, since it's from my fic, What Counts, but vieralynn's art turned out lovely!]


DAIII: Cullen by VelvetRue
[img]http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/321/c/7/c77d6e582b58295240e75b4e4c0eb351-d5l91vc.png[/url]

[CuriousArtemis]

So I finally read Asunder!  Stayed up really late last night finishing it, which was probably not a good idea, as I'm now more sick than ever, but oh well. 

These are my thoughts...

1. DG is very, very clever with point-of-view in the narrative and provides no solid evidence for the reader to accurately guess what Cole is. DG also seems quite fond of Cole. For this reason, I don't think it's the last we'll see of this guy. Personally, I don't think he's something as simple as an abomination (Wynne/Faith, Anders/Justice) or a straight up spirit or demon.

2. This book makes me hate templars. It also makes me hate Templar/Circle Mage relationships even more. The templars truly are jailors, slaveholders even, and hold great power over the mages, who are treated with extreme indignity, not as fellow citizens of equal status. 

3. For that reason, I'm not overfond of the romance in this novel. I find Evangeline's complete 180 in regards to mage freedom hard to believe, as she was so incredibly hard-lined at the beginning of the novel. Rhys falling for one of his captors makes me really uncomfortable, too. Of course, by the end of the novel Evangeline has lost all her political power while Rhys has gained INCREDIBLE power; he is head of the Aequitarians and casts the deciding vote. He's basically the head of the mage rebellion. So we switch back to a typical male/female relationship. That also made me uncomfortable o.O  That said, I don't hate this couple, and if they return to the game (as I think they will), I hope they will be a sort of Donnic and Aveline type couple... two of my favorite characters from DA2.

4. Lambert says all the Knight-Commanders fell in line. This makes me WORRIED for Cullen. I am worried that Cullen will be one of those Knight-Commanders. (Who else would be given the position after Meredith is killed?) Still, considering how insane Lambert is (and he is clearling running the show with the templars at the start of the novel, having removed Evangeline's superior with no effort), it's not hard to imagine that he would hold Cullen responsible for what happened at Kirkwall, and would remove him from his position... also possibly put him in jail (this seems less likely). (Lambert NEVER threatened to put Evangeline in jail, just demote her, and what she did was directly disobey him.) So I think it possible that Cullen has been demoted and possibly removed from the Order (can they do that?). I just recalled that a reason Lambert might not have been harsher to Evangeline is because she had the Divine's favor, which Cullen obviously does not. 

5. From all the chit-chat, I was expecting there to be a division between the Seekers and the Templars, but that wasn't in the book. So I wonder where people are getting this?? Also I seem to recall people suggesting that the Divine was killed, but she wasn't killed in the book. So I'm confused about that. Am I wrong in believing that some think the game will begin at the moment when the Libertarian mage attempts (but FAILS) to assassinate the Divine? I personally think the game will begin AFTER the events of Asunder.

6. Who was behind the assassination attempt? That's something that was never cleared up for me. 

7. This book makes me feel guilty for never using Shale. Apparently, she accompanied the Warden on EVERY SINGLE QUEST in DA:O (along with Wynne, but I always take Wynne). Also, Wynne referring to the Warden was kind of hilarious... like he doesn't have a name? Also, Alistair was a "Warden," too, but everyone seems to forget that. I also thought the way mages actually carry their staffs everywhere was funny lol I think staffs are silly... I've never read a fantasy book where mages actually carry staffs (other than Gandalf), but then I guess that makes it original. Mages also kept referring to something called "mana"; Wikipedia tells me this means "power" but also "defilement." Interesting!

Modifié par motomotogirl, 14 juillet 2013 - 07:09 .

[CuriousArtemis]

R2s Muse wrote...

OK, not Culleny... except by a very very thin connection via Cullen's erm, experience with demons in the past. But check out this loverly male desire demon.

Desire demon by ~bluewickedbehemoth
http://www.deviantar...demon-384916698

Ohh yeah, I'm tempted! 

[LolaLei]

In regards to your 4th question, this is something I'm concerned about too. I mean, on the one hand, I don't see Cullen siding with Lambert because his outlook on the mage situation is even worse than what Meredith's was. That being said, IF he is a Knight Commander then that means he must've sided with Lambert because the book states that ALL of the Knight Commanders agreed with him, even though he could tell some didn't want to.

That's where R2 and myself got those ideas of him either being demoted prior to Lambert's severing of the accord, or that perhaps Cullen is a sleeper agent for the Divine, thus him seemingly siding with Lambert just so that he can relay information back to her. 

It'll be interesting to find out what happened to him between the end of DA2 and DA:I. I wonder where his story has led him... hopefully not down a path that sees his progress go to waste.

Modifié par LolaLei, 14 juillet 2013 - 07:18 .

[LolaLei]

As for the Evangeline thing, I found it a bit odd that she went from an extreme hard lined stance to suddenly being extremely mage sympathetic. It almost felt like she done a complete 180 out of the blue, especially considering she was more than happy to chuck Rhys in the dungeons for days/weeks to begin with. Admittedly it felt weird that Rhys was even interested in her after that.

Still, if someone THAT hard lined can switch sides, then Cullen certainly could warm up a little too. I'd say Evangeline was much more zealotous than Cullen ever was and the poor boy had much more reason to be like that then she did.

[R2s Muse]

motomotogirl wrote...

So I finally read Asunder!  Stayed up really late last night finishing it, which was probably not a good idea, as I'm now more sick than ever, but oh well.

Yeah!  Finally!  [sorry you're more sick, tho ]

{With respectful clipping}

1. For this reason, I don't think it's the last we'll see of this guy. Personally, I don't think he's something as simple as an abomination (Wynne/Faith, Anders/Justice) or a straight up spirit or demon.

Yeah, I still haven't read it a second time to look for clues on what he is. Honestly, I'm still puzzled as to why the Litany of Adralla works on him, since it's about blood magic and mind control. I guess that means that, whatever Cole is, he was using mind control on Rhys? I had a hard time accepting/understanding what Rhys was really doing and whether he was the actual murderer.

2. The templars truly are jailors, slaveholders even, and hold great power over the mages, who are treated with extreme indignity, not as fellow citizens of equal status.

Urgh, agree. It was quite horrible. BUT my sense was that it had only gotten that bad as a result of what happened in Kirkwall. Of course, the spooky, forgotten dungeons in the basement belie this...

3. For that reason, I'm not overfond of the romance in this novel. I find Evangeline's complete 180 in regards to mage freedom hard to believe, as she was so incredibly hard-lined at the beginning of the novel.

Totally agree!!  I do like Evangeline, but I didn't find the  book very compelling in how her thinking evolved. The actual romance I also thought was a little... thin.

4. Lambert says all the Knight-Commanders fell in line. This makes me WORRIED for Cullen. I am worried that Cullen will be one of those Knight-Commanders. (

Agree. What Lola said. There's still a pretty good chance he's not Commander of Kirkwall, tho. We'll just have to wait and see what happened to him post-Meredith. It must be of some... substance, tho, since it was already worked out in advance by the writers.

5. From all the chit-chat, I was expecting there to be a division between the Seekers and the Templars, but that wasn't in the book. So I wonder where people are getting this?? Also I seem to recall people suggesting that the Divine was killed, but she wasn't killed in the book. So I'm confused about that. Am I wrong in believing that some think the game will begin at the moment when the Libertarian mage attempts (but FAILS) to assassinate the Divine? I personally think the game will begin AFTER the events of Asunder.

Hmm... Not sure I completely understand every point here. By division, do you mean a split  of allegiance between the Seekers and Templars?  I don't believe I've ever heard that, but maybe I'm misunderstanding.

The talk about the Divine being killed is all in the context of the survey leak, which suggests a massive explosion at a  peace gathering. Her death was just our speculation.

On the start of the game, one of the devs, I think MLaidlaw, said specifically that DA:I will start after Asunder.

6. Who was behind the assassination attempt? That's something that was never cleared up for me.

No idea. I'd even have to re-read that part to remember the details.

7.  Mages also kept referring to something called "mana"; Wikipedia tells me this means "power" but also "defilement." Interesting!

Heh heh, I guess I thought that was "common" RPG lingo, but the blue bar of your 'reservoir' of mage power is sometimes called mana. Is it not in the DA games...? edit: wiki on Mana Dunno where the word comes from, tho.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 14 juillet 2013 - 07:42 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Yes, the devs themselves definitely see Cullen as more of a moderate, and so if Evangeline can make that switch, then so can he. Although I don't see him being 100% in favor of mage freedom; that would seem mightily OOC of him, but I think he is gradually recovering from his PTSD and his fear-induced belief that mages are not simply human beings with magic and have to be treated differently. What I'm saying is, though Cullen can likely never feel comfortable with the thought of mages having no checks on their power and their abilities, he may eventually start to understand/accept that a mage is simply a person who was dealt an unfortunate hand in life... and should be treated with dignity and respect as any other human being.

Evangeline was downright cruel to Rhys, so yeah, their romance feels odd to me, but it was probably a romance DG was fond of and wanted to make happen, yet at the same time, he had to show what life was truly like in a Circle.

Cullen as a sleeper cell is way more interesting (to me) than sad and demoted Cullen. I feel like he's been through enough!!

[CuriousArtemis]

R2s Muse wrote...

Yeah!  Finally!  [sorry you're more sick, tho ]

I've got my humidifier going and loaded my body down with meds, yet still I can't get through a single one of these posts without my nose exploding >.< URGHGHGHG!

R2s Muse wrote...

Yeah, I still haven't read it a second time to look for clues on what he is. Honestly, I'm still puzzled as to why the Litany of Adralla works on him, since it's about blood magic and mind control. I guess that means that, whatever Cole is, he was using mind control on Rhys? I had a hard time accepting/understanding what Rhys was really doing and whether he was the actual murderer.

I think it's apparent in the final scene that Rhys was not responsible for the murders since Cole murders (presumably) Lambert on his own. 

As for why the Litany works, yes, I think it's possible/probable that Cole unconsciously uses blood magic. Recall that every time (towards the final events of the novel) he tries to consciously make himself or someone else disappear, a dark feeling rises up inside him, and he tries to desperately fend this off. I think here he is unconsciously summoning a demon, poor baby. But remarkably, he's able to fend the demon/dark feeling off. He's an impressive guy, but I worry that eventually the demon will win (or his demon nature will win, if you believe he is an abomination or spirit/demon).

The problem with blood magic is that it's a catch-all situation. Anything that is inexplicable is explained through blood magic. It also makes narrators unreliable. Rhys "can't recall" murdering anyone, so he must have been under the influence of blood magic! Even in Cole's own point-of-view chapters, he is the one doing the murders, but perhaps he is remembering them wrong because, boom, blood magic! LOL So, like I said, it's really impossible for us to determine what he is. 

But for my part, I don't believe Rhys was involved in the murders, and I don't believe Cole is simply a demon or spirit. 

R2s Muse wrote...

Heh heh, I guess I thought that was "common" RPG lingo, but the blue bar of your 'reservoir' of mage power is sometimes called mana. Is it not in the DA games...? edit: wiki on Mana Dunno where the word comes from, tho.

ROFL I never noticed this  Okay, it's kind of funny how he tried to include aspects of the game in the novel. Like when Adrian made that comment about no one grabbing healing potions, I laughed out loud. Come on, we don't need healing potions in the story, that is just game stuff, so that you don't die in the big boss fight LOL

Modifié par motomotogirl, 14 juillet 2013 - 07:57 .

[R2s Muse]

MMG: Will be back later to discuss more!

[LolaLei]

Perhaps Cole is co-inhabiting his body with a demon? In the same way that Anders and Justice share one body?

[CuriousArtemis]

All righty!! 

[CuriousArtemis]

LolaLei wrote...

Perhaps Cole is co-inhabiting his body with a demon? In the same way that Anders and Justice share one body?

I think strictly speaking, Justice is/was a spirit?? And also Wynne/Faith qualify for this same scenario. I think this is what the Chantry calls an abomination. Right??

Anyway, it seems like all the pieces fit for this to be Cole, but doesn't it seem unlikely that DG would write about yet another abomination character? 

[Danny Boy 7]

motomotogirl wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Perhaps Cole is co-inhabiting his body with a demon? In the same way that Anders and Justice share one body?

I think strictly speaking, Justice is/was a spirit?? And also Wynne/Faith qualify for this same scenario. I think this is what the Chantry calls an abomination. Right??

Anyway, it seems like all the pieces fit for this to be Cole, but doesn't it seem unlikely that DG would write about yet another abomination character? 

Potentially (and this is my own little theory) he is either a spirit or demon that came upon the real Cole saw him die and the feelings traumatized him into believing he was the boy he'd spent time with. 

I think the invisibility and dark feelings he got were the natural abilities that come with being a demon or spirit.

[CuriousArtemis]

Well, that's what Cole himself says at the end of the novel *strokes chin* But why does he have corporeal form? I was under the impression demons couldn't do this. Otherwise Justice would've slipped back into the Fade (if he didn't have Anders to hold on to, so to speak).

[CuriousArtemis]

Also, if Cole is USING blood magic (as indicated by the use of the Litany and its effect on him), then how can he be a spirit? (Demon doesn't make sense as demons are evil creatures.) Can spirits use blood magic? I thought blood magic was used specifically by mages to commune with demons. Maybe I'm not too clear on what blood magic actually is though.

[brushyourteeth]

I thought the book was pretty clear on the point that Cole used mind control to make Rhys commit the murders (a la Ginny in the Harry Potter books. ;P The realization by both Cole and Rhys that that's what happened is when Cole disappears, and the next time you see him he's aware of what he is. Then at the end of the book I think Evangeline and Rhys have a moment where they talk about how he feels about being used by Cole, but it's been so long now I'm not positive about that one.

I almost wonder if Cole is an example of what can happen when a mage goes into the Fade (for their Harrowing or even just in their dreams) and encounters a demon and forms some sort of relationship with it. He didn't seem to understand what he was and has these very ethereal abilities... but then the demon says to Lambert that he answered Cole's cries in the dungeon, so... yeah, I just don't know.

It does make me wonder if we see Cole in DA:I, whether he'll be cast more as a rogue or more as a mage. He could go both ways, especially now that he's self-aware. He could also be a not-so good guy, now that he's self-aware. :/

[Danny Boy 7]

motomotogirl wrote...

Well, that's what Cole himself says at the end of the novel *strokes chin* But why does he have corporeal form? I was under the impression demons couldn't do this. Otherwise Justice would've slipped back into the Fade (if he didn't have Anders to hold on to, so to speak).

As I recall they can enter the world through tears in the veil so maybe the demon  slipped out somewhere else and found Cole in the dungeon.  It's a stretch but hey.

[brushyourteeth]

motomotogirl wrote...

Also, if Cole is USING blood magic (as indicated by the use of the Litany and its effect on him), then how can he be a spirit? (Demon doesn't make sense as demons are evil creatures.) Can spirits use blood magic? I thought blood magic was used specifically by mages to commune with demons. Maybe I'm not too clear on what blood magic actually is though.

It IS confusing! To the best of my understanding, demons originally taught mages blood magic and can still teach it to them today, but mages can also learn blood magic from tomes or other blood mages.

Blood mages can become possessed and still use blood magic (like Flemeth and Harvester!Orsino). It makes normal mages more attractive to demons and more susceptible to possession too, so all blood mages are looked at with suspicion because they're tasty possession morsels and may have already been talking to demons so far.

If Cole was using blood magic (and I guess he was) his compulsion to kill people in order to feel connected to the world kind of explains that.

[CuriousArtemis]

Hmm well the whole "Cole is just controlling you, Rhys" notion came from Lambert; the idea was planted into Rhys' head. I don't know why Cole would need Rhys to kill these people. If it's because Cole is noncorporeal... well, that's just not possible, because Cole is clearly corporeal, as he is touched and held by various characters. So I'm not sure why Cole would NEED Rhys to kill these mages... unless he were evil and purposefully manipulating Rhys (which he clearly is not). Lambert only planted that idea in Rhys' head because HE believes 100% that Cole is a demon. Lambert believes Rhys is a blood mage who is now under the control of Cole, the demon.

For some reason, Rhys believed him (he was under a lot of physical pain and emotional duress at the time, understandable), and I feel like as soon as he doubted Cole's existence as a real person, that made him unable to see Cole. Not that Cole literally disappeared... Rhys just stopped seeing him.

That's the tricky/confusing part. Why is Rhys able to see Cole? Others sometimes see him... Lambert is able to sense him (why?)... Cole is drawn into the Fade while his body remains on the second floor of that castle towards the latter end of the novel. Cole obviously has a body for him to leave behind (because when they return from the Fade, Cole is not with them; he's still on the second floor). Being in the Fade allows the others to see and remember Cole... for a time.

Sort of similar to how Justice's appearance allowed Karl to become un-Tranquil for a few minutes... for a time. Gahh I can't help but think the two situations are related (seeing as how Pharamond was researching reversing Tranquility).

[CuriousArtemis]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

Well, that's what Cole himself says at the end of the novel *strokes chin* But why does he have corporeal form? I was under the impression demons couldn't do this. Otherwise Justice would've slipped back into the Fade (if he didn't have Anders to hold on to, so to speak).

As I recall they can enter the world through tears in the veil so maybe the demon  slipped out somewhere else and found Cole in the dungeon.  It's a stretch but hey.

Oh no, the Veil is I'm sure super thin around the White Spire (that's what it's called, right?) and especially in the dungeons, so I imagine it would be no problem for a spirit to slip through.

But what I mean is, if Cole is just a spirit/demon, why does he have a body? Or I mean, how can he have a body?

Justice doesn't have a body; he needs one to stay in this world, so he latches on to the corpse first, then Anders. If Cole is just a demon/spirit... is he possessing the mage boy, Cole, or his corpse?? (eww) He would have to be. He can't JUST be a spirit.