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[Danny Boy 7]

motomotogirl wrote...

Also, if Cole is USING blood magic (as indicated by the use of the Litany and its effect on him), then how can he be a spirit? (Demon doesn't make sense as demons are evil creatures.) Can spirits use blood magic? I thought blood magic was used specifically by mages to commune with demons. Maybe I'm not too clear on what blood magic actually is though.

Could be that the demon was purified or something.  I'm more inclined to believe it's a demon since he called them dark feelings. Blood magic seems to augment mages in a similar way to lyrium, but it's not necessary to speak with a demon since they mainly come in dreams.

I think spirits frown on it but ultimately don't care one way or the other. 

[brushyourteeth]

Yeah, I definitely think Cole has a body, of sorts. Being an untrained but obviously talented mage, it seems like his abilities manifested themselves in unfamiliar ways (especially + blood magic). Since whatever's possessing him claims to have rescued him when he was forgotten in the dungeons, some sort of bond happened there that I agree probably included a physical body, but not a knowledge that possession even happened. Poor Cole doesn't even know how long he's been in the Spire. We just know that the murders only happened for... what, a few months to a year?

So... if he's definitely been using blood magic (Litany + compulsive murders) then... without any sort of training or access to (well, more like zero interest in) books of forbidden knowledge, Cole must have picked up blood magic from the thing possessing him, which must be a demon. I was kind of hoping it wouldn't be, but I can't think what else explains the blood magic.

And Cole doesn't really identify himself with mages, so except for his affection for Rhys, I can't imagine he'd be that interested in helping them in DA:I. But revenge on Templars? Oh yes.

[Danny Boy 7]

motomotogirl wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

Well, that's what Cole himself says at the end of the novel *strokes chin* But why does he have corporeal form? I was under the impression demons couldn't do this. Otherwise Justice would've slipped back into the Fade (if he didn't have Anders to hold on to, so to speak).

As I recall they can enter the world through tears in the veil so maybe the demon  slipped out somewhere else and found Cole in the dungeon.  It's a stretch but hey.

Oh no, the Veil is I'm sure super thin around the White Spire (that's what it's called, right?) and especially in the dungeons, so I imagine it would be no problem for a spirit to slip through.

But what I mean is, if Cole is just a spirit/demon, why does he have a body? Or I mean, how can he have a body?

Justice doesn't have a body; he needs one to stay in this world, so he latches on to the corpse first, then Anders. If Cole is just a demon/spirit... is he possessing the mage boy, Cole, or his corpse?? (eww) He would have to be. He can't JUST be a spirit.

I think that demons/spirits are semi corporeal in the Fade but they can exist outside of it given the proper "exit". To me possession is a convenient (and usually the only) way into our world for the denizens of the Fade, but if they are powerful enough and there is a tear they can just walk out otherwise a tear in the veil wouldn't be a big deal since there would need to be people around to possess. 

Justice was a special case because he was specifically implanted into Kristoff by that abomination the Baroness and by his own account he didn't know if he could leave the corpse to begin with but the epilogues and DA2 made it seem that by the time he possesses Anders he could return to the Fade when he wanted.

Sorry for the poor punctuation phone is irritating. 

PS. How is your dad brush?

[brushyourteeth]

I agree with you about demons getting in, Danny. It's supposed to be rare, but then we end up seeing it pretty often for gameplay reasons. Oh well!

To me, Cole seems more like Flemeth than anything else we've seen so far. Of course she's a lot more in control and self-aware than he is (though after the end of Asunder, who knows?)

It seems more like a partnership than most possessions. Cole still says mostly himself but has all this power. Other than the whole "why am I stabbing people?" and "Why does the Litany of Adralla make all my powers go away?" thing, you'd have no idea there was anything to do with a spirit in the first place. :/

And thanks for asking, Danny! Dad's home now. They couldn't figure out what was wrong, even after three days and two nights of tests. Seems neurological and may have had something to do with some medication he was taking. We'll just have to keep an eye on it.

[Danny Boy 7]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I agree with you about demons getting in, Danny. It's supposed to be rare, but then we end up seeing it pretty often for gameplay reasons. Oh well!

To me, Cole seems more like Flemeth than anything else we've seen so far. Of course she's a lot more in control and self-aware than he is (though after the end of Asunder, who knows?)

It seems more like a partnership than most possessions. Cole still says mostly himself but has all this power. Other than the whole "why am I stabbing people?" and "Why does the Litany of Adralla make all my powers go away?" thing, you'd have no idea there was anything to do with a spirit in the first place. :/

And thanks for asking, Danny! Dad's home now. They couldn't figure out what was wrong, even after three days and two nights of tests. Seems neurological and may have had something to do with some medication he was taking. We'll just have to keep an eye on it.

 Well I hope it was just gas

Cole could be something new. I am curious to learn whether he is a rogue or mage should he show up as a companion. 

[brushyourteeth]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Cole could be something new. I am curious to learn whether he is a rogue or mage should he show up as a companion. 

Yeah, me too. I mean, rogue seems the obvious choice since he prefers daggers and sneakiness, but the boy's still a mage. Interesting to think that "mage" doesn't have to mean cloth-wearing, staff-wielding, fireball-throwing. Could be kind of cool to see him do something different with his unique abilities.

[littlenikki]

Hello lads and lassies! Anyone still ghosting around here to chat to?

On the issue of Cole, that sounds pretty accurate on him existing as the physical form of a spirit that made its way through the weakened veil, rather than him possessing a corpse. I mean, demons are able to have their own physical forms w/out possession, it makes sense that spirits can too. I'm probably just repeating what has already been said, but I haven't finished Asunder yet (for shame!) and only have a vague understanding of who Cole actually is. I've been slowly making progress while getting my hair done, of all places that seems to be where I read the most lol

And I'm sorry that your dad is having some health issues Brush, though I'm glad to hear he's home. My best wishes and thoughts are with you and your family!

Modifié par littlenikki, 15 juillet 2013 - 02:49 .

[brushyourteeth]

littlenikki wrote...

Hello lads and lassies! Anyone still ghosting around here to chat to?

On the issue of Cole, that sounds pretty accurate on him existing as the physical form of a spirit that made its way through the weakened veil, rather than him possessing a corpse. I mean, demons are able to have their own physical forms w/out possession, it makes sense that spirits can too. I'm probably just repeating what has already been said, but I haven't finished Asunder yet (for shame!) and only have a vague understanding of who Cole actually is. I've been slowly making progress while getting my hair done, of all places that seems to be where I read the most lol

And I'm sorry that your dad is having some health issues Brush, though I'm glad to hear he's home. My best wishes and thoughts are with you and your family!

Just me! Thanks for the kind wishes.

I think Cole is or was or was definitely attached to a person at some point (that didn't make things less complicated, did it?) He definitely has memories of coming to the Spire because his magic was discovered and memories of his life before. So... yeah. He definitely seems to be unusual.  Of course it doesn't help that to get possessed you only have to have a moment of "please, anyone help me" or "I'd do anything to get out of here" -- and Cole definitely has one of those at the beginning.

[littlenikki]

brushyourteeth wrote...

littlenikki wrote...

Hello lads and lassies! Anyone still ghosting around here to chat to?

On the issue of Cole, that sounds pretty accurate on him existing as the physical form of a spirit that made its way through the weakened veil, rather than him possessing a corpse. I mean, demons are able to have their own physical forms w/out possession, it makes sense that spirits can too. I'm probably just repeating what has already been said, but I haven't finished Asunder yet (for shame!) and only have a vague understanding of who Cole actually is. I've been slowly making progress while getting my hair done, of all places that seems to be where I read the most lol

And I'm sorry that your dad is having some health issues Brush, though I'm glad to hear he's home. My best wishes and thoughts are with you and your family!

Just me! Thanks for the kind wishes.

I think Cole is or was or was definitely attached to a person at some point (that didn't make things less complicated, did it?) He definitely has memories of coming to the Spire because his magic was discovered and memories of his life before. So... yeah. He definitely seems to be unusual.  Of course it doesn't help that to get possessed you only have to have a moment of "please, anyone help me" or "I'd do anything to get out of here" -- and Cole definitely has one of those at the beginning.

True, his hopelessness was really a point of emphasis in his introduction. Where did all the murderous instincts come in though? Ugh, I just really have to finish reading that book already  Oh well, something to keep me occupied until 2014 maybe. 

I really wish I had something constructive to add here, or some other topic to bring up that hasn't already been dissected to the bone. Alas, I am at a loss  Not looking good for anything to be discussed during Comic Con this upcoming weekend?

[LolaLei]

See, we're presuming that the Litany worked on Cole, but who's to say that he didn't just purposely make himself disappear because he realised he was causing more problems/trouble for Rhys by being with the group? It's my feeling that he probably backed off of his own accord.

I don't think Cole was mind controlling Rhys, he seemed to genuinely care about him enough to not kill him when he had the chance, or harm him/use him in any way. Especially since Rhys was the only friend he ever had. Perhaps that's how we'll encounter him in DAI, he's essentially alone now, possibly still hanging around in White Spire until our protagonist attracts his attention and then secretly follow us instead... until we discover him lurking and recruit him.

Modifié par LolaLei, 15 juillet 2013 - 09:52 .

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

See, we're presuming that the Litany worked on Cole, but who's to say that he didn't just purposely make himself disappear because he realised he was causing more problems/trouble for Rhys by being with the group? It's my feeling that he probably backed off of his own accord.

I don't think Cole was mind controlling Rhys, he seemed to genuinely care about him enough to not kill him when he had the chance, or harm him/use him in any way. Especially since Rhys was the only friend he ever had. Perhaps that's how we'll encounter him in DAI, he's essentially alone now, possibly still hanging around in White Spire until our protagonist attracts his attention and then secretly follow us instead... until we discover him lurking and recruit him.

I agree that Cole wasn't mind controlling Rhys; at least, that was my gut reaction when I read the book. I got to that point and the big, blinking "WTF???" appeared over my head. It was one of those moments where I wondered if I really, really missed something... or if there was an unfortunate logic jump in the writing.  I also felt that Cole was very fond of Rhys and in the scenes where he was murdering... I dunno, he seemed very... present. I like MMG's idea that it was just an idea planted by Lambert, who at that point was convinced Cole was not a separate physical being in their world, but a demon in Rhys's head.

On the Litany of Adralla, I think I'll have to re-read that part. I dunno. I recall the feeling that Cole disappeared unwillingly, but I don't know if that's supported by the text. On the other hand, if it was 'believing' Cole to be real that allowed him to be seen, then perhaps he would disappear for anyone who stopped believing in him... including himself...?  Is that a stretch? LOL

More in a bit.

[LolaLei]

It didn't make him cease to be though, because he shows up right at the end to kill Lambert... unless whatever was left of Cole "died"/gave up when they used the Litany and now the demon/whatever it is has taken over?

Y'know, this will be the third time we get a character in the DA games that is possessed or co-inhabiting a body in some way.

[R2s Muse]

You know, when I read it, I figured what happened was what Danny described last night. That alone and forgotten mage Cole called out in despair and let in a spirit/demon, becoming an abomination in Cole's young human body. Seeing how Wynne's spirit maintained her body when she should have died, perhaps Cole's human body has been maintained now well past a normal human lifetime. Perhaps it's been so long now that  human Cole and his spirit host have truly forgotten where one begins and the other ends, like a really advanced version of Justice/Anders. Cole becomes frozen developmentally as that frightened youth, and the human and spirit have completely forgotten how they came to be. But, like Justice, it still sees Cole's memories, but confuses them for its own.

Going back to our discussion about the differences between spirit and demon. The Chant of Light and Justice suggest that demons are different because they develop desires for things. "In blackest envy were the demons born" (Erudition 2:1) and Justice says "[Demons] have been perverted by their desires." What if Cole were originally inhabited by a (good) spirit that sought to help him and the spirit lost itself after being joined for so long. But, eventually it began to tire of its half existence, began to *desire* things, and to be real, be seen, and so turned into a demon? Perhaps these desires twisted it into doing whatever it took to be seen (i.e. start murdering people) and changed its essential nature, that the rising darkness was the demony evil tainting him. This could also explain why it only started happening recently.

Along those lines, maybe the invisibility thing was just some natural reflex the spirit did to avoid detection, but happens to technically be mind control because it forces people not to notice him. Maybe Rhys could see him because of his affinity for spirits and so the magic just didn't work as well on him. Perhaps the Litany of Adralla not only disrupted the mind control but somehow banished the spirit or woke it up to realize what it was doing. So the Cole we see at the end is now fully aware of his spirit/demonhood.

tl; dr :: Anyhoo, those are some of my thoughts. Maybe Cole adds to what we've seen of the abomination, spirit/demon situation because he  houses a spirit who unwittingly has become a demon.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 15 juillet 2013 - 02:46 .

[LolaLei]

That's definitely a possibility. It could even be that the demon forgot what it was, especially if it wasn't a particularly strong demon to begin with. I mean, I guess it's possible that a demon could become "good" (ish) just like a spirit can turn bad over time with corruption.

[Adela]

sorry for interrupting the discussion with a random note but i was looking around for a templar armor and i came across this pic and i thought hmm i think Cullen  would look pretty sexy in this (pic is made by Delta2094 at devant art)




lol now on a more serious note i would love  if he would wear something like  this  if he were to be in Orlais



pic by Namecchan

Modifié par ag99, 15 juillet 2013 - 03:03 .

[Adela]

lol thought this pic was pretty funny


pic by artastrophe

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

That's definitely a possibility. It could even be that the demon forgot what it was, especially if it wasn't a particularly strong demon to begin with. I mean, I guess it's possible that a demon could become "good" (ish) just like a spirit can turn bad over time with corruption.

I think it would be fascinating if they could sorta switch back and forth, and that spirits and demons are really kinda the same thing. Like Jedi vs. Sith. LOL

I was reading over all of Justice's dialogues from Awakenings. Lots o' good info there. Also, tons and tons of foreshadowing about DA2. In retrospect, it was like bright flashing neon sign obvious what they would do with Justice. LOL

[Danny Boy 7]

R2s Muse wrote...

You know, when I read it, I figured what happened was what Danny described last night. That alone and forgotten mage Cole called out in despair and let in a spirit/demon, becoming an abomination in Cole's young human body. Seeing how Wynne's spirit maintained her body when she should have died, perhaps Cole's human body has been maintained now well past a normal human lifetime. Perhaps it's been so long now that  human Cole and his spirit host have truly forgotten where one begins and the other ends, like a really advanced version of Justice/Anders. Cole becomes frozen developmentally as that frightened youth, and the human and spirit have completely forgotten how they came to be. But, like Justice, it still sees Cole's memories, but confuses them for its own.

Going back to our discussion about the differences between spirit and demon. The Chant of Light and Justice suggest that demons are different because they develop desires for things. "In blackest envy were the demons born" (Erudition 2:1) and Justice says "[Demons] have been perverted by their desires." What if Cole were originally inhabited by a (good) spirit that sought to help him and the spirit lost itself after being joined for so long. But, eventually it began to tire of its half existence, began to *desire* things, and to be real, be seen, and so turned into a demon? Perhaps these desires twisted it into doing whatever it took to be seen (i.e. start murdering people) and changed its essential nature, that the rising darkness was the demony evil tainting him. This could also explain why it only started happening recently.

Along those lines, maybe the invisibility thing was just some natural reflex the spirit did to avoid detection, but happens to technically be mind control because it forces people not to notice him. Maybe Rhys could see him because of his affinity for spirits and so the magic just didn't work as well on him. Perhaps the Litany of Adralla not only disrupted the mind control but somehow banished the spirit or woke it up to realize what it was doing. So the Cole we see at the end is now fully aware of his spirit/demonhood.

tl; dr :: Anyhoo, those are some of my thoughts. Maybe Cole adds to what we've seen of the abomination, spirit/demon situation because he  houses a spirit who unwittingly has become a demon.

You see I agree with most if not all of this except I don't think there was a physical possession. I think Cole (the demon) came to Cole (the boy) either in his dreams or physically in the dungeon reached into his mind as demons seem to do and absorbed his memories. Then when Cole died and the templars cleaned it up the demon became Cole in order to keep mages from the same fate, while unknowingly satisfying his demonic impulses.

What the Litany did was to banish the demon and remind it of it's true nature.  I don't think it would have worked had he been possessing a corpse.

[Danny Boy 7]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

That's definitely a possibility. It could even be that the demon forgot what it was, especially if it wasn't a particularly strong demon to begin with. I mean, I guess it's possible that a demon could become "good" (ish) just like a spirit can turn bad over time with corruption.

I think it would be fascinating if they could sorta switch back and forth, and that spirits and demons are really kinda the same thing. Like Jedi vs. Sith. LOL

I was reading over all of Justice's dialogues from Awakenings. Lots o' good info there. Also, tons and tons of foreshadowing about DA2. In retrospect, it was like bright flashing neon sign obvious what they would do with Justice. LOL

You know before release when Anders was spotted I guessed what they were going to do with his story arc except for blowing up the Chantry. I knew when they said he was possessed that it was Justice and that it was willing, but something went wrong and occasionally Justice would pop out to say something. 

It was predictable,  but I enjoyed it nevertheless. 

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

That's definitely a possibility. It could even be that the demon forgot what it was, especially if it wasn't a particularly strong demon to begin with. I mean, I guess it's possible that a demon could become "good" (ish) just like a spirit can turn bad over time with corruption.

I think it would be fascinating if they could sorta switch back and forth, and that spirits and demons are really kinda the same thing. Like Jedi vs. Sith. LOL

I was reading over all of Justice's dialogues from Awakenings. Lots o' good info there. Also, tons and tons of foreshadowing about DA2. In retrospect, it was like bright flashing neon sign obvious what they would do with Justice. LOL

To be honest I mainly dragged Anders, Oghren and Nathaniel everywhere with my Warden because they were hilarious together so I never really heard much from Justice. I'll have to check out some of his dialogue.

[R2s Muse]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

You know, when I read it, I figured what happened was what Danny described last night. That alone and forgotten mage Cole called out in despair and let in a spirit/demon, becoming an abomination in Cole's young human body. Seeing how Wynne's spirit maintained her body when she should have died, perhaps Cole's human body has been maintained now well past a normal human lifetime. Perhaps it's been so long now that  human Cole and his spirit host have truly forgotten where one begins and the other ends, like a really advanced version of Justice/Anders. Cole becomes frozen developmentally as that frightened youth, and the human and spirit have completely forgotten how they came to be. But, like Justice, it still sees Cole's memories, but confuses them for its own.

Going back to our discussion about the differences between spirit and demon. The Chant of Light and Justice suggest that demons are different because they develop desires for things. "In blackest envy were the demons born" (Erudition 2:1) and Justice says "[Demons] have been perverted by their desires." What if Cole were originally inhabited by a (good) spirit that sought to help him and the spirit lost itself after being joined for so long. But, eventually it began to tire of its half existence, began to *desire* things, and to be real, be seen, and so turned into a demon? Perhaps these desires twisted it into doing whatever it took to be seen (i.e. start murdering people) and changed its essential nature, that the rising darkness was the demony evil tainting him. This could also explain why it only started happening recently.

Along those lines, maybe the invisibility thing was just some natural reflex the spirit did to avoid detection, but happens to technically be mind control because it forces people not to notice him. Maybe Rhys could see him because of his affinity for spirits and so the magic just didn't work as well on him. Perhaps the Litany of Adralla not only disrupted the mind control but somehow banished the spirit or woke it up to realize what it was doing. So the Cole we see at the end is now fully aware of his spirit/demonhood.

tl; dr :: Anyhoo, those are some of my thoughts. Maybe Cole adds to what we've seen of the abomination, spirit/demon situation because he  houses a spirit who unwittingly has become a demon.

You see I agree with most if not all of this except I don't think there was a physical possession. I think Cole (the demon) came to Cole (the boy) either in his dreams or physically in the dungeon reached into his mind as demons seem to do and absorbed his memories. Then when Cole died and the templars cleaned it up the demon became Cole in order to keep mages from the same fate, while unknowingly satisfying his demonic impulses.

What the Litany did was to banish the demon and remind it of it's true nature.  I don't think it would have worked had he been possessing a corpse.

I was thinking about this some more. While I wasn't suggesting he was possessing a corpse but a living human... I think I forgot that the book said something about Cole the boy actually dying...? Is that right? In that case, I could go with Cole the spirit/demon pretending to be Cole as a result of being, I dunno, traumatized by Cole's suffering and death. Cole being an actual demon  instead of a human hosting a demon would make more sense with him disappearing at the end.

[LolaLei]

Well, if he is a demon then I guess it stands to reason that it completely lost touch of who/what it was. I mean, chances are said demon had never been out of the Fade before and the first thing it experiences is the trauma of Cole (the boy) going through hell locked in his dungeon.

I don't think Cole was dead, but I think he was probably very close to death.

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

That's definitely a possibility. It could even be that the demon forgot what it was, especially if it wasn't a particularly strong demon to begin with. I mean, I guess it's possible that a demon could become "good" (ish) just like a spirit can turn bad over time with corruption.

I think it would be fascinating if they could sorta switch back and forth, and that spirits and demons are really kinda the same thing. Like Jedi vs. Sith. LOL

I was reading over all of Justice's dialogues from Awakenings. Lots o' good info there. Also, tons and tons of foreshadowing about DA2. In retrospect, it was like bright flashing neon sign obvious what they would do with Justice. LOL

To be honest I mainly dragged Anders, Oghren and Nathaniel everywhere with my Warden because they were hilarious together so I never really heard much from Justice. I'll have to check out some of his dialogue.

LOL Ironically, I took Justice with me just about everywhere, but maybe not commonly with Anders?  Anyhoo, I never guess any of it like Danny did.

Sadly, I never took Nate anywhere which is why he (DIDN'T) die back at the (reinforced) Keep in my DA2 import.
I'm itching now to do a new playthrough, perhaps with an Orlesian Warden, Nate and Justice. Plus Velanna much earlier since I always get her last, and so never really get to know her.

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

Well, if he is a demon then I guess it stands to reason that it completely lost touch of who/what it was. I mean, chances are said demon had never been out of the Fade before and the first thing it experiences is the trauma of Cole (the boy) going through hell locked in his dungeon.

I don't think Cole was dead, but I think he was probably very close to death.

Probably not dead when the demon met him. But doesn't the book say that after Cole died the templars covered it all up? Suggesting that he dies shortly therafter...? I'll have to look again.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 15 juillet 2013 - 04:06 .

[R2s Muse]

Aha!

"There was a Cole," he whispered. "You forgot him in that cell, and I heard his cries when no one else would. I went to him, and held his hand in the darkness until it was over. When the templars found him, they erased everything to hide their shame... and I was helpless to act." Sorrow, and perhaps even regret, crossed the young man's face, but only for a moment. "I'm not helpless any longer."