89415 réponses à ce sujet

[meanieweenie]

LolaLei wrote...

"Cullen's words about mages generally can be interpreted according to the emphasis you put on them. So "mages aren't people like you or I" implies that he considers they are sub-human and not entitled to the same rights. But "mages aren't people like you or I" is pointing out that they are different in the powers they possess and so cannot be considered in the same was as a non mage."

This is a great quote because it highlights the context when the emphasis is on different words. Changes the meaning of the sentence completely! I suppose it's easy to misinterpret for some. Especially if you're automatically looking to demonize someone.... like a Templar.

Edited for ****** poor spelling. Have another drink, why dontcha?

Modifié par meanieweenie, 30 juin 2012 - 01:51 .

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I've found something David Gaider said about Cullen in an interview once:

"Basically Cullen trusted the mages he lived with, and came to have that trust broken. Like some people do when they live through horrific situations, I think he needed something to blame. Survivor guilt and all that aside, I think that Cullen is the exact kind of Templar that is needed. He doesn't abuse his power, he doesn't leap to conclusions, but he is always aware of the dangers that can occur, and takes action when necessary, even when it seems contrary to Templar belief."

I also found a good quote that you could add to your analysis:

"Cullen's words about mages generally can be interpreted according to the emphasis you put on them. So "mages aren't people like you or I" implies that he considers they are sub-human and not entitled to the same rights. But "mages aren't people like you or I" is pointing out that they are different in the powers they possess and so cannot be considered in the same was as a non mage."

Oh! That DG quote is a little different from the other quotes I've seen from him. The survivor guilt came through loud and clear in some of Cullen's lines in Broken Circle. 

I like that second quote because it restates something I've said elsewhere but in different words. I often feel like Cullen gets dogpiled by fandom when he states the obvious about mages but does so in a very blunt manner. That bluntness can be easily misinterpreted. 


One of things that I'm documenting in my analysis is how Cullen is often an emotional speaker who just blurts out his words without thinking. This is especially true in DAO and DA2's Act 1, but he starts growing out of it in Act 2, and is a much more measured speaker in Act 3. Also, in DA2 it his job to speak from the Templar Order's point of view. He has a few lines that sound really questionable and problematic until you stop and think about the words he actually said rather than the tone in which he said them (I don't have access to the script right now but one has to do with theTranquil Solution). He's a very subtle character at times. 

I can see how many people misunderstand him, especially those who are pro-mage to the extreme. People tend to forget that Bioware games never make the characters completely cut 'n' dry, there's always more to them when you scratch the surface.

I still don't know what made the DA team choose Cullen for Knight-Captain at the last minute (originally it was some old grey haired bloke, you get to see a cutscene of it in the Dawn of the Seeker bonus footage tour of the Bioware studio), it does make me wonder if it was fan popularity from DA:O, although Gaider claims that he was completely unaware that he even had such a following.

[LolaLei]

What annoys me, is a lot of the Cullen haters are Fenris fans... surely Cullen's feelings towards Mages is much the same as Fenris' since both of them were tortured by them. If anything Fenris is far more harsh and open about his hatred of Mages than Cullen ever was.

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

So, folks may or may not recall this conversation about Cullen's potential romantic past (oh gosh, already a week ago??), where I mentioned an idea I'd had about a sort of longtime mistress for Cullen. You guys actually sparked a full-fledged plot bunny, so I decided to flesh out my idea a little bit, see if it might work, while trying to answer the questions you raised (how he might have met this woman, and how would our PC possibly find out about it). For the latter, again I use Hawke instead of unnamed future PC since I know Hawke already. But just consider her more like my test particle... 

Anyway, it turned out kinda interesting, altho I don't know that it's my preferred headcanon... It's just a short one-shot over on ff.net:

A Love of His Own

Awwww.  That's cute.

The older mistress is actually believable (substitute mother figure?!). Not sure if the idea will ever take root in my headcanon but I definitely like the dynamic. 

Thanks! What's funny is I'd actually been thinking about such a woman in his past for a while, but it wasn't til I started writing it that the whole alienation from his peers we'd been talking about recently came into play so nicely. It's funny how ideas evolve like that.

[LolaLei]

Oh, here's another popular reason why people don't like Cullen:

"He took Bethany from her home and threw her in the Gallows, despite Hawke saving his life from a possessed templar" - To be fair, he does kinda give you a heads up by saying "I've been hearing disturbing things about your sister, I hope they aren't true" (sure, he says the same about Hawke if he/she is a Mage, but I take that as warning to keep the magic low key and stay out of trouble.) Beyond that he's just doing his job.

Modifié par LolaLei, 30 juin 2012 - 02:04 .

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

Harsh, latest Cullen confession on the Dragon Age Confessions tumblr:



Fortunately, he left enough of an impression on us to to make up for it eh!

Seriously? This sounds like someone just trolling. I can't possibly imagine someone caring enough about DA to bother with dragonageconfessions but not knowing the guy who played such a large role in the DA2 ending...? I mean, did they even play the game? Pfft.:pinched:OK, on second thought... maybe they actually haven't played DA2...

[meanieweenie]

That's how I read it too. He knew there was a mage and was giving you ample opportunity to hide it. Duty is duty. Like a cop pulling you over for speading and letting you go with a warning.

[berelinde]

Actually, there was a DG/Sheryl Chee conversation in the DA:O section not too long after the first game came out. They were really surprised about how popular Cullen proved to be. When asked about the possibility of a full-on Cullen romance for DA:O, SC got all "Er... yeah. That wouldn't end well at all." When pressed, she said that Cullen was deliberately written to be obsessive and kinda creepy, and that developments in their "relationship" were likely to be of the stalker variety ala Spike and Buffy.

Don't take this as condemnation of Cullen's character. In DA:O, he really did not have the emotional maturity to handle an intense infatuation turning into a physical relationship. This isn't something many people are willing to admit, but a great many people have "stalkerish" relationships in their past where they pursued an otherwise casual GF/BF with entirely inappropriate zeal. Most of them go on to have perfectly healthy relationships later in their lives, although they may look back on those episodes with a great deal of embarrassment. Cullen has recovered from the incident and has gained enough maturity not to place the blame for his infatuation on the Warden. He looks back on her fondly, but he has let her go.

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...
Thanks! What's funny is I'd actually been thinking about such a woman in his past for a while, but it wasn't til I started writing it that the whole alienation from his peers we'd been talking about recently came into play so nicely. It's funny how ideas evolve like that.

My headcanon Cullen is painfully alone in Kirkwall and that sense of being alone (and a foreigner, and a knight-captain who is easily 20 years younger than some of the men he supposedly commands?!) strongly defines him and becomes his reason for even considering a rather lawless apostate like Hawke someone who could become a potential friend. (And that potential for friendship evolves into Cullen seeing Hawke as a confidant, and a few years of strange but fully solid friendship before matters become more *cough* complicated.)

Outside of my headcanon Cullen, I like the idea of Cullen having someone who is a confidant. Otherwise, I have a hard time understanding how he emotionally balances out when so cut off from any sense of social belonging. Even if it isn't an older Orlesian mistress (), there needs to be someone. A Chantry brother? A bartender? ???

[LolaLei]

berelinde wrote...

Actually, there was a DG/Sheryl Chee conversation in the DA:O section not too long after the first game came out. They were really surprised about how popular Cullen proved to be. When asked about the possibility of a full-on Cullen romance for DA:O, SC got all "Er... yeah. That wouldn't end well at all." When pressed, she said that Cullen was deliberately written to be obsessive and kinda creepy, and that developments in their "relationship" were likely to be of the stalker variety ala Spike and Buffy.

Don't take this as condemnation of Cullen's character. In DA:O, he really did not have the emotional maturity to handle an intense infatuation turning into a physical relationship. This isn't something many people are willing to admit, but a great many people have "stalkerish" relationships in their past where they pursued an otherwise casual GF/BF with entirely inappropriate zeal. Most of them go on to have perfectly healthy relationships later in their lives, although they may look back on those episodes with a great deal of embarrassment. Cullen has recovered from the incident and has gained enough maturity not to place the blame for his infatuation on the Warden. He looks back on her fondly, but he has let her go.

Didn't she later retract that statement and said it was just a joke that got out of hand, when people started kicking off about it? Either way, maybe that's why they added him to DA2 and made him grow up a bit, just incase they wanna use him as a companion/LI in future games *cough* DA3 *cough.*

[meanieweenie]

R2s Muse wrote...
 Seriously? This sounds like someone just trolling. I can't possibly imagine someone caring enough about DA to bother with dragonageconfessions but not knowing the guy who played such a large role in the DA2 ending...? I mean, did they even play the game? Pfft.:pinched:OK, on second thought... maybe they actually haven't played DA2...

Troll. Totally. (Now I can say that and know what it means - thanks to RedZelda. I'm such a tool. lol)

R2 - I liked your one shot! Wish I could write.

[LolaLei]

meanieweenie wrote...

That's how I read it too. He knew there was a mage and was giving you ample opportunity to hide it. Duty is duty. Like a cop pulling you over for speading and letting you go with a warning.

I expect he had to bend all sorts of rules, just to keep her from being made tranquil by Meredith for being an apostate for so many years.

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

Oh, here's another popular reason why people don't like Cullen:

"He took Bethany from her home and threw her in the Gallows, despite Hawke saving his life from a possessed templar" - To be fair, he does kinda give you a heads up by saying "I've been hearing disturbing things about your sister, I hope they aren't true" (sure, he says the same about Hawke if he/she is a Mage, but I take that as warning to keep the magic low key and stay out of trouble.) Beyond that he's just doing his job.

OH THAT ONE.  He's doing more than just doing his job. Bethany's situation was very complicated and she was putting her family at risk by allowing them to hide her. I've replied to that special one over here. 

If Hawke is a mage, Cullen will instead say, "I've been hearing disturbing rumors about you, I hope they aren't true."  Either way, he's warning Hawke (and Bethany, if she's alive) to get themselves someplace safe, or go on their Deep Roads expedition. That's quite a favor he does, given who he is.

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

R2 - just read your one-shot and quite enjoyed it. I wish I could write because I've had this story gnawing at me for some time now but I truly suck at it. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

edited for having my response somehow totally disappear!

Um, basically what I said was Thank you! :happy: Then, something about going for it anyway! If it's really gnawing at you, then I'd say get it out of your system... whether you let anyone else see it or not. You never know how it'll turn out!

Modifié par R2s Muse, 30 juin 2012 - 02:15 .

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
Thanks! What's funny is I'd actually been thinking about such a woman in his past for a while, but it wasn't til I started writing it that the whole alienation from his peers we'd been talking about recently came into play so nicely. It's funny how ideas evolve like that.

My headcanon Cullen is painfully alone in Kirkwall and that sense of being alone (and a foreigner, and a knight-captain who is easily 20 years younger than some of the men he supposedly commands?!) strongly defines him and becomes his reason for even considering a rather lawless apostate like Hawke someone who could become a potential friend. (And that potential for friendship evolves into Cullen seeing Hawke as a confidant, and a few years of strange but fully solid friendship before matters become more *cough* complicated.)

Outside of my headcanon Cullen, I like the idea of Cullen having someone who is a confidant. Otherwise, I have a hard time understanding how he emotionally balances out when so cut off from any sense of social belonging. Even if it isn't an older Orlesian mistress (), there needs to be someone. A Chantry brother? A bartender? ???

I really like the idea that he lead a pretty lonely existence (outside of Hawke's visits) which is why he confided in her/him more than he should have. Plus, it makes for more awkward social interactions and banter in DA3 LOL!

Also, did you see the posts R2 and myself put up earlier about Varric publishing his book "Swords & Shields" (the one about the Captain of the Guard and the Knight-Captain) and Cullen reads it, with hilarious results.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Oh, here's another popular reason why people don't like Cullen:

"He took Bethany from her home and threw her in the Gallows, despite Hawke saving his life from a possessed templar" - To be fair, he does kinda give you a heads up by saying "I've been hearing disturbing things about your sister, I hope they aren't true" (sure, he says the same about Hawke if he/she is a Mage, but I take that as warning to keep the magic low key and stay out of trouble.) Beyond that he's just doing his job.

OH THAT ONE.  He's doing more than just doing his job. Bethany's situation was very complicated and she was putting her family at risk by allowing them to hide her. I've replied to that special one over here. 

If Hawke is a mage, Cullen will instead say, "I've been hearing disturbing rumors about you, I hope they aren't true."  Either way, he's warning Hawke (and Bethany, if she's alive) to get themselves someplace safe, or go on their Deep Roads expedition. That's quite a favor he does, given who he is.

Agreed. He's giving us, as the player, a big hint to take Bethany with us (of course, in Hawke's case nothing happens, but it probably would have if Hawke hadn't suddenly come into a lot of money and wasn't of use to the Templars/Chantry in general.)

He would have had to bend a lot of rules just to keep Bethany from being made tranquil by Meredith, just for being an apostate for so many years.

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...


I'm going to start posting my epic analysis of Cullen's characterization in DAO and DA2 (finished making diagrams of all of his dialogue trees for DAO, still working on them for DA2).

Before I forget, I have dialogue trees written down for the Keran quest ending ("mages can't be treated like people..." ) and the dialogues just after (where he waxes eloquent about how templars are viewed) if that's all helpful. You probably already have those, but if not I can send you the word file. OH YEAH! I also posted them here, once upon a time.

[meanieweenie]

I've always kind of wondered... did no one ever get into trouble for harboring a fugitive apostate? Are there no consequences?

[vieralynn]

berelinde wrote...

Actually, there was a DG/Sheryl Chee conversation in the DA:O section not too long after the first game came out. They were really surprised about how popular Cullen proved to be. When asked about the possibility of a full-on Cullen romance for DA:O, SC got all "Er... yeah. That wouldn't end well at all." When pressed, she said that Cullen was deliberately written to be obsessive and kinda creepy, and that developments in their "relationship" were likely to be of the stalker variety ala Spike and Buffy.

I completely agree that Cullen lacked the emotional maturity to handle a relationship during DA:O. That was very clear.

The stalker thing -- and I know the quote from Chee -- is really weird because as a writer she completely failed to convey the stalkerish nature that true creepy stalker types have. I'm not the only person to comment on this and others have done so more eloquently on tumblr.

So, during writers meetings, he might have been thought of as a creepy stalker type, but as soon as they decided to make it into a Spike/Buffy knockoff (if that was really who they were thinking of), they romanticized what a stalker is and de-creeped any of the potential creepiness.

Later, Chee went back on her comment and just called Cullen "a hormonally driven young man" which is far more fitting for what we see.

Don't take this as condemnation of Cullen's character. In DA:O, he really did not have the emotional maturity to handle an intense infatuation turning into a physical relationship. This isn't something many people are willing to admit, but a great many people have "stalkerish" relationships in their past where they pursued an otherwise casual GF/BF with entirely inappropriate zeal. Most of them go on to have perfectly healthy relationships later in their lives, although they may look back on those episodes with a great deal of embarrassment. Cullen has recovered from the incident and has gained enough maturity not to place the blame for his infatuation on the Warden. He looks back on her fondly, but he has let her go.

I agree. He's a very different and far more mature person 3-4 years later when DA2's Act 2 happens.

He struck me as a very immature person in DAO. Not dangerous, not creepy, not an actual stalker. Just shy and immature. I think the two get confused a lot and I would bet the writers confused it too.

[berelinde]

LolaLei wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Actually, there was a DG/Sheryl Chee conversation in the DA:O section not too long after the first game came out. They were really surprised about how popular Cullen proved to be. When asked about the possibility of a full-on Cullen romance for DA:O, SC got all "Er... yeah. That wouldn't end well at all." When pressed, she said that Cullen was deliberately written to be obsessive and kinda creepy, and that developments in their "relationship" were likely to be of the stalker variety ala Spike and Buffy.

Don't take this as condemnation of Cullen's character. In DA:O, he really did not have the emotional maturity to handle an intense infatuation turning into a physical relationship. This isn't something many people are willing to admit, but a great many people have "stalkerish" relationships in their past where they pursued an otherwise casual GF/BF with entirely inappropriate zeal. Most of them go on to have perfectly healthy relationships later in their lives, although they may look back on those episodes with a great deal of embarrassment. Cullen has recovered from the incident and has gained enough maturity not to place the blame for his infatuation on the Warden. He looks back on her fondly, but he has let her go.

Didn't she later retract that statement and said it was just a joke that got out of hand, when people started kicking off about it? Either way, maybe that's why they added him to DA2 and made him grow up a bit, just incase they wanna use him as a companion/LI in future games *cough* DA3 *cough.*

Dang it, I don't remember. That's the problem with my memory. I remember bits and pieces, but rarely the whole thing.

Even if she was competely serious, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It happens. For a lot of people, it's part of growing up. People do grow up, they do learn to build healthier relationships, and life goes on. If there's anyone on this planet who has reached the age of 40 without ever doing something they regret, I'd be surprised.

Maybe that is why they chronicled his emotional growth in DA2, to lessen that sense of "Ew, stalker," but I'd be disappointed if that was the only reason. Memories of past humiliation and regret make for an interesting character, in my book.

There's a banter between Isabela and Anders...
Anders: Do you ever have any regrets?
Isabela: About what?
Anders: Anything? Everything? I can't figure you out.
Isabela: The past's past. I learned that young. If it can't bring you gold or giggles, what's the point in dwelling on it?
Anders: Maybe the chance to fix a mistake? Make things right again?
Isabela: Eh. Our mistakes make us who we are.
Anders: That was almost profound.[/list]

Modifié par berelinde, 30 juin 2012 - 02:26 .

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

As for the Creepy Cullen bit in origins, some of the best defenses I've seen have been over on tumblr. Basically, it comes down to explaining what truly creepy guys do and how Cullen does not fit that image. He never acts entitled, he never acts like he should own or have the fem mage, he never makes sexual innuendo or sexual suggestions, he actively does not want to harm the fem mage (or the male mage), he's concerned about the mage's (male and female) well being.

I find the whole creep-shaming a bit odd because clearly some fans are seeing *something* as very threatening to their warden's safety, and people keep bringing it up again and again and again...

The only thing I can think of is this:
a. They are confusing awkwardness and shyness with creepiness, and other people have addressed this before.

b. They are confusing the creepiness of the situation with the person. It is creepy that templars need to watch to see if a mage turns into an abomination during his/her harrowing and, if so, the end result is death-by-templar. Creepy. But does that necessarily make the templar creepy? Cullen appeared very upset about this role he had to play during both the male and female the origin story. In DA2, Cullen is pretty consistent about always favoring merciful solutions. He definitely does not get off on death. If anything, he avoids it and, oddly (!), he's one of the only templars we see who never engages in battle with other mages throughout either of the two games. The only two people we see him fight against are both templars: Wilmod and Meredith.

I also thought that alot of the creepy rumors came from those comments from David Gaider about how if he wrote a Cullen romance it would have to be creepy.

[meanieweenie]

vieralynn wrote...


I agree. He's a very different and far more mature person 3-4 years later when DA2's Act 2 happens.

He struck me as a very immature person in DAO. Not dangerous, not creepy, not an actual stalker. Just shy and immature. I think the two get confused a lot and I would bet the writers confused it too.

I'll bet ya dollar for donuts that they desided to elaborate on Cullen due to either feedback or they realized they had a gold mine for character development.

[berelinde]

meanieweenie wrote...

I've always kind of wondered... did no one ever get into trouble for harboring a fugitive apostate? Are there no consequences?

If you are mostly siding with the mages, you'll get a quest in Act 3 to protect a family from being slaughtered by templars because they offered a meal to an escaped Circle mage. And I've got vague memories of templar Carver telling Hawke that the penalty for harboring an apostate is death. But see above about my memory.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

So, during writers meetings, he might have been thought of as a creepy stalker type, but as soon as they decided to make it into a Spike/Buffy knockoff (if that was really who they were thinking of), they romanticized what a stalker is and de-creeped any of the potential creepiness.

Well, he certainly fits the Spike pattern (not personality wise, but event/circumstance wise.) I can't remember if you saw my post a few pages back about the parallels between Cullen and Spike, but it makes me think, perhaps the feelings he had for our Warden in DA:O was supposed to mirror Spikes feelings for Drusilla (the vampire that sired him) because it was obsessive and immature? Going by that theory, perhaps if he is a companion in DA3 the romance between him and the protagonist would be like the one between Spike and Buffy (minus the constant physical fighting) where he feels pain for falling for the protagonist (especially if he/she's a Mage) and there's a lot of conflict etc before giving into temptation.

I also think Greg Ellis' VA for Cullen made him seem more like a hormonal young man, than a creepy stalker.

Modifié par LolaLei, 30 juin 2012 - 02:36 .

[LolaLei]

berelinde wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

I've always kind of wondered... did no one ever get into trouble for harboring a fugitive apostate? Are there no consequences?

If you are mostly siding with the mages, you'll get a quest in Act 3 to protect a family from being slaughtered by templars because they offered a meal to an escaped Circle mage. And I've got vague memories of templar Carver telling Hawke that the penalty for harboring an apostate is death. But see above about my memory.

Really? I never got that one and I usually play completely pro-mage. Cullen must have been pulling strings to stop Hawke's family being sentenced to Death. Infact, if you're a Mage and Carver becomes a Templar, Meredith is completely unaware that he's her brother, until towards the end of Act 3. Now, Cullen knows for a fact that they are related, so he clearly kept quiet about it, in order to let Carver join and not get the Hawke family in trouble.

Modifié par LolaLei, 30 juin 2012 - 02:35 .