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[meanieweenie]

berelinde wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

I've always kind of wondered... did no one ever get into trouble for harboring a fugitive apostate? Are there no consequences?

If you are mostly siding with the mages, you'll get a quest in Act 3 to protect a family from being slaughtered by templars because they offered a meal to an escaped Circle mage. And I've got vague memories of templar Carver telling Hawke that the penalty for harboring an apostate is death. But see above about my memory.

Well that's what I mean... why didn't the Hawke family get more of a lashing? Was that Cullen's doing? Or were they the exception to the rule? It's just always sat odd with me.

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

berelinde wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

I've always kind of wondered... did no one ever get into trouble for harboring a fugitive apostate? Are there no consequences?

If you are mostly siding with the mages, you'll get a quest in Act 3 to protect a family from being slaughtered by templars because they offered a meal to an escaped Circle mage. And I've got vague memories of templar Carver telling Hawke that the penalty for harboring an apostate is death. But see above about my memory.

Really? I never got that one and I usually play completely pro-mage.

Interesting! I don't think I have either... I wonder if that's an import flag thing...? I've only gotten the Nathaniel quest, like, once! *sob*

Modifié par R2s Muse, 30 juin 2012 - 02:48 .

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...


I'm going to start posting my epic analysis of Cullen's characterization in DAO and DA2 (finished making diagrams of all of his dialogue trees for DAO, still working on them for DA2).

Before I forget, I have dialogue trees written down for the Keran quest ending ("mages can't be treated like people..." ) and the dialogues just after (where he waxes eloquent about how templars are viewed) if that's all helpful. You probably already have those, but if not I can send you the word file. OH YEAH! I also posted them here, once upon a time.

Thanks! Yes, I have those. I still have to get all of Cullen's dialogue for Act 2 and 3.  I have everything from Act 1 though (plus all of his DA:O dialogue in the vanilla version of the game).

[meanieweenie]

Sorry I zoned out on Duran Duran for a second... Simon le Bon's voice makes my old girly side squeal.

Anywaaaay... I've gotten Nathaniel's deal a few times but it really does seem random sometimes. I have gotten the escaped Cicle mage thing once or twice as well.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

berelinde wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

I've always kind of wondered... did no one ever get into trouble for harboring a fugitive apostate? Are there no consequences?

If you are mostly siding with the mages, you'll get a quest in Act 3 to protect a family from being slaughtered by templars because they offered a meal to an escaped Circle mage. And I've got vague memories of templar Carver telling Hawke that the penalty for harboring an apostate is death. But see above about my memory.

Really? I never got that one and I usually play completely pro-mage.

Interesting! I don't think I have either... I wonder if that's an import flag thing...? I've only gotten the Nathaniel question, like, once! *sob*

I've got Nathaniel every time. I did get a mini quest once, where I went to Sundermount and a group of aggressive Templars were trying to take Feynriel back to the Gallows... so I helped the Elves kill them LOL! Never got it again though... which was odd.

[R2s Muse]

re: misconceptions about Cullen... argh, the complaints I think I hear the most often are (1) he took Bethany, rawr!, (2) he thinks mages aren't people, and (3) he flip flopped at the end, he's not heroic, he was going to arrest Hawke, but then SUDDENLY he changed his mind.

My responses:
(1) Bethany? Pfft. I sent her to the Circle just to get an extra convo with Cullen. (OH SNAP! Kidding. Sorta.)
 
(2) You guys have covered it. Ugh. He says they can't be "treated" like people, then goes on to explain himself, that mages are actually dangerous. Which is, you know, true.

(3) Ugh, this one bothers me the most, since it again discounts any motivation or character development that would bring him to that point. I see the "kill  Hawke" command as the straw that finally broke the camel's back for Cullen in his re-examination of what being a templar is about. It's not like a sudden mental break!

[vieralynn]

meanieweenie wrote...

berelinde wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

I've always kind of wondered... did no one ever get into trouble for harboring a fugitive apostate? Are there no consequences?

If you are mostly siding with the mages, you'll get a quest in Act 3 to protect a family from being slaughtered by templars because they offered a meal to an escaped Circle mage. And I've got vague memories of templar Carver telling Hawke that the penalty for harboring an apostate is death. But see above about my memory.

Well that's what I mean... why didn't the Hawke family get more of a lashing? Was that Cullen's doing? Or were they the exception to the rule? It's just always sat odd with me.

I've always assumed that Cullen was being extremely generous to the Hawke family.

As for why he's so generous, that requires a bit of fridge logic and guessing. Maybe it's because he is repaying a favor since Hawke saved his life during the Wilmod incident. Maybe Cullen still has terrible feelings about hunting mages (this comes up in his DAO dialogue) and he just wants all apostate incidents handled as humanely as possible. Maybe it is his canon sense of mercy kicking in. Maybe all of the above.

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

berelinde wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

I've always kind of wondered... did no one ever get into trouble for harboring a fugitive apostate? Are there no consequences?

If you are mostly siding with the mages, you'll get a quest in Act 3 to protect a family from being slaughtered by templars because they offered a meal to an escaped Circle mage. And I've got vague memories of templar Carver telling Hawke that the penalty for harboring an apostate is death. But see above about my memory.

Well that's what I mean... why didn't the Hawke family get more of a lashing? Was that Cullen's doing? Or were they the exception to the rule? It's just always sat odd with me.

I've always assumed that Cullen was being extremely generous to the Hawke family.

As for why he's so generous, that requires a bit of fridge logic and guessing. Maybe it's because he is repaying a favor since Hawke saved his life during the Wilmod incident. Maybe Cullen still has terrible feelings about hunting mages (this comes up in his DAO dialogue) and he just wants all apostate incidents handled as humanely as possible. Maybe it is his canon sense of mercy kicking in. Maybe all of the above.

Doesn't he also say something about how cooperative Bethany has been as well? It could be a combination of things, but you would indeed expect some quite real consequences for nineteen years of subterfuge.

[meanieweenie]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

berelinde wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

I've always kind of wondered... did no one ever get into trouble for harboring a fugitive apostate? Are there no consequences?

If you are mostly siding with the mages, you'll get a quest in Act 3 to protect a family from being slaughtered by templars because they offered a meal to an escaped Circle mage. And I've got vague memories of templar Carver telling Hawke that the penalty for harboring an apostate is death. But see above about my memory.

Well that's what I mean... why didn't the Hawke family get more of a lashing? Was that Cullen's doing? Or were they the exception to the rule? It's just always sat odd with me.

I've always assumed that Cullen was being extremely generous to the Hawke family.

As for why he's so generous, that requires a bit of fridge logic and guessing. Maybe it's because he is repaying a favor since Hawke saved his life during the Wilmod incident. Maybe Cullen still has terrible feelings about hunting mages (this comes up in his DAO dialogue) and he just wants all apostate incidents handled as humanely as possible. Maybe it is his canon sense of mercy kicking in. Maybe all of the above.

Doesn't he also say something about how cooperative Bethany has been as well? It could be a combination of things, but you would indeed expect some quite real consequences for nineteen years of subterfuge.

I guess it all boils down to this: if Hawke got arrested, the game would be over. LOL

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

re: misconceptions about Cullen... argh, the complaints I think I hear the most often are (1) he took Bethany, rawr!, (2) he thinks mages aren't people, and (3) he flip flopped at the end, he's not heroic, he was going to arrest Hawke, but then SUDDENLY he changed his mind.

My responses:
(1) Bethany? Pfft. I sent her to the Circle just to get an extra convo with Cullen. (OH SNAP! Kidding. Sorta.)
 
(2) You guys have covered it. Ugh. He says they can't be "treated" like people, then goes on to explain himself, that mages are actually dangerous. Which is, you know, true.

(3) Ugh, this one bothers me the most, since it again discounts any motivation or character development that would bring him to that point. I see the "kill  Hawke" command as the straw that finally broke the camel's back for Cullen in his re-examination of what being a templar is about. It's not like a sudden mental break!

I thought the reason they were going to arrest Hawke was for letting Anders run around with her, knowing for well that he's a bit loopy and blew up the Chantry (more so if she actually let Anders survive). I admit, I was a bit like "WTF Cullen, I saved your arse more than once!" When I first heard him say that he thought they were just going to arrest him/her, but thinking about it, the whole Mage rebellion/fall of Kirkwall is down to Hawke helping Anders lol.

Modifié par LolaLei, 30 juin 2012 - 03:01 .

[R2s Muse]

For completeness: Chee recanting on creepy stalker ... I believe there's more from her both earlier and later in that same thread.

[meanieweenie]

Well guys, I'm going to go "creepy stalker" my pillow. I'm bushed! LOL Nighty nite!

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

re: misconceptions about Cullen... argh, the complaints I think I hear the most often are (1) he took Bethany, rawr!, (2) he thinks mages aren't people, and (3) he flip flopped at the end, he's not heroic, he was going to arrest Hawke, but then SUDDENLY he changed his mind.

My responses:
(1) Bethany? Pfft. I sent her to the Circle just to get an extra convo with Cullen. (OH SNAP! Kidding. Sorta.)
 
(2) You guys have covered it. Ugh. He says they can't be "treated" like people, then goes on to explain himself, that mages are actually dangerous. Which is, you know, true.

(3) Ugh, this one bothers me the most, since it again discounts any motivation or character development that would bring him to that point. I see the "kill  Hawke" command as the straw that finally broke the camel's back for Cullen in his re-examination of what being a templar is about. It's not like a sudden mental break!

I thought the reason they were going to arrest Hawke was for letting Anders run around with her, knowing for well that he's a big loopy and blew up the Chantry (more so if she actually let Anders survive). I admit, I was a bit like "WTF Cullen, I saved your arse more than once!" When I first heard him say that he thought they were just going to arrest him/her, but thinking about it, the whole Mage rebellion/fall of Kirkwall is down to Hawke helping Anders lol.

I really think this is the big one... and there are unfortunately several interpretation, to my mind. Here's mine.

Why was he going to arrest her in the first place? Well, since he says it in both pro-mage and pro-templar, presumably it's because of what Meredith says, that she wonders if Hawke masterminded the whole mage uprising and presumably Chantry blow up. Given the paranoid things Meredith says, I figured she'd been looking for a way to get rid of Hawke for a while now, so this is her nice and tidy chance. I always imagine Meredith discussing this to some extent with  Cullen before, how it's all Hawke's fault, and he convinced her to just arrest Hawke instead of kill her out of hand. Then, of course, crazy!Meredith goes off script.

Why does he switch from arresting Hawke to siding with her? I think this is the straw. He tried to talk Meredith down to a non-lethal solution, but when that fails then he needs to finally step in. An arrested Hawke could be arraigned or released, a dead Hawke, not so much (altho it IS Kirkwall...). He sees  no other way to reason with Meredith any longer, meaning she's unfit for her command. Mutiny time.

EDIT: But why does he care about Hawke, anyway? In at least the pro-mage version, she just spent quite a bit of time killing lots o' templars out of hand. Why not punish her?  In my personal, romantic head canon, it's cuz he has a thing for Hawke. But, realistically, I don't think it's really about Hawke at all. I think it's about Meredith and her behavior. "This is not what the Order stands for."

Modifié par R2s Muse, 30 juin 2012 - 03:14 .

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

Well guys, I'm going to go "creepy stalker" my pillow. I'm bushed! LOL Nighty nite!

Nighty nite, you creepy stalker, you!

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

re: misconceptions about Cullen... argh, the complaints I think I hear the most often are (1) he took Bethany, rawr!, (2) he thinks mages aren't people, and (3) he flip flopped at the end, he's not heroic, he was going to arrest Hawke, but then SUDDENLY he changed his mind.

My responses:
(1) Bethany? Pfft. I sent her to the Circle just to get an extra convo with Cullen. (OH SNAP! Kidding. Sorta.)
 
(2) You guys have covered it. Ugh. He says they can't be "treated" like people, then goes on to explain himself, that mages are actually dangerous. Which is, you know, true.

(3) Ugh, this one bothers me the most, since it again discounts any motivation or character development that would bring him to that point. I see the "kill  Hawke" command as the straw that finally broke the camel's back for Cullen in his re-examination of what being a templar is about. It's not like a sudden mental break!

I thought the reason they were going to arrest Hawke was for letting Anders run around with her, knowing for well that he's a big loopy and blew up the Chantry (more so if she actually let Anders survive). I admit, I was a bit like "WTF Cullen, I saved your arse more than once!" When I first heard him say that he thought they were just going to arrest him/her, but thinking about it, the whole Mage rebellion/fall of Kirkwall is down to Hawke helping Anders lol.

I really think this is the big one... and there are unfortunately several interpretation, to my mind. Here's mine.

Why was he going to arrest her in the first place? Well, since he says it in both pro-mage and pro-templar, presumably it's because of what Meredith says, that she wonders if Hawke masterminded the whole mage uprising and presumably Chantry blow up. Given the paranoid things Meredith says, I figured she'd been looking for a way to get rid of Hawke for a while now, so this is her nice and tidy chance. I always imagine Meredith discussing this to some extent with  Cullen before, how it's all Hawke's fault, and he convinced her to just arrest Hawke instead of kill her out of hand. Then, of course, crazy!Meredith goes off script.

Why does he switch from arresting Hawke to siding with her? I think this is the straw. He tried to talk Meredith down to a non-lethal solution, but when that fails then he needs to finally step in. An arrested Hawke could be arraigned or released, a dead Hawke, not so much (altho it IS Kirkwall...). He sees  no other way to reason with Meredith any longer, meaning she's unfit for her command. Mutiny time.

It seems Cullen's taken on the role of pacifer, he talks people down from extreme ideas and tries to make them think rationally, how's that for a turn around eh!

But it wouldn't surprise me if Meredith was trying to convince him that Hawke had been "betraying" his trust, using his past against him to try and get him to do her bidding. Or perhaps she knew that Cullen respected Hawke, so she lied and told him they were just going to arrest him/her when the all along was to kill Hawke 'n' co.

[LolaLei]

Also, in DA2 Cullen says that he wouldn't have liked Meredith when he was younger, because he felt like Mages should be treated with a softer touch, but that Meredith isn't fooled by a pretty face. - Do you suppose he's subtley refering to the Warden and his own weakness?

Modifié par LolaLei, 30 juin 2012 - 03:15 .

[LolaLei]

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[LolaLei]