89415 réponses à ce sujet

[meanieweenie]

R2s Muse wrote...

You know, thanks for mentioning this, meanie, because that always bugged me about Alistair as well. It was a bit too much of a plot device to give the player agency. I think they'll have the same problem with someone like Cullen (or as mentioned, Cassandra) in your party. Folks who are older -- i.e. much more experienced, much higher level -- following around a greenhorn. So, internal power struggles would be the perfect way to make it more natural.

I keep  wondering what would make him "follow." It could be something like PC and her group have goal X, and Cullen has his own goal Y, but doesn't want to go off on his own for whatever reason. So, he agrees to tag along with her and her group... then let the leadership struggles and back-seat driving ensue.

Also, like the idea of having a traitor in the group... as I think Lola you've brought up before...? I think it would be too hard if it were your LI, but could still be interesting... just too much possibility for frakking it up and pissing off the players, tho, IMO.

It will be interesting after Asunder to see which way Cullen goes. I don't want to spoiler-ize things for those who have not read it. This is what I'm thinking though. If Cullen follows the Divine, it could be totally different thatn Following the Templars. Which would be following the orginal idea of the Templars anyway. How do you explain this with out spoiling things? LOL

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

This brings me nicely onto a question:

What do you think Cullens initial reaction will be to

A) Having to essentially take orders from a mage (especially a pretty female mage)

There being mages in our party

What do you think his vocal reaction (and inner introspective reaction) will be.

Hi guys....

Let me just jump on in at that point and ask this:

What if Cullen isn't in the "take orders" position at all? What if part of the tension is a leadership struggle? For instance, our PC is simply part of a group and not necessarily assumed to be the leader? I say this in the nicest of ways, but the main bone of contention I had with Alistair is that he freely gave authority to a noob. He was the senior and out ranked them all yet let someone else lead without question. The plus is that it added to his character and story as a whole but I don't picture this being a seasoned Templar's temperment.

Anyway, I think it'd be fun to see some kind of scrambling for control of the group. Perhaps only to realize they're all fighting toward the same goal - or maybe not!

You know, thanks for mentioning this, meanie, because that always bugged me about Alistair as well. It was a bit too much of a plot device to give the player agency. I think they'll have the same problem with someone like Cullen (or as mentioned, Cassandra) in your party. Folks who are older -- i.e. much more experienced, much higher level -- following around a greenhorn. So, internal power struggles would be the perfect way to make it more natural.

I keep  wondering what would make him "follow." It could be something like PC and her group have goal X, and Cullen has his own goal Y, but doesn't want to go off on his own for whatever reason. So, he agrees to tag along with her and her group... then let the leadership struggles and back-seat driving ensue.

Also, like the idea of having a traitor in the group... as I think Lola you've brought up before...? I think it would be too hard if it were your LI, but could still be interesting... just too much possibility for frakking it up and pissing off the players, tho, IMO.

I think he'd follow the protagonist if the Divine or Cassandra who has power over the Templars for being a Seeker has specifically ordered him to. I don't think he'd be happy about it but we'd just have to remind him that he was a complete noob when he became the Knight-Captain of Kirkwall (and he knows how hard that was) so he'll just have to put up or shut up LOL!

Alternatively, perhaps if there was an order put out to kill him then he'd need a group of skilled fighters to protect him, so running with our protagonist would present the perfect opportunity for him to save his own arse, not realising what he's letting himself in for.

Oh yes. Both of these.

I can easily see Cullen allying with the Divine and being told to keep an eye on the protagonist. Initially, he's a spy, but as events unfold he may find himself in complete agreement with the PC or he may betray the PC (and no necessarily to the Divine because the political situation may have become far more complex). 

As for the second idea, I once read a short fanfic about Cullen being mob-attacked and run out of Kirkwall shortly after the uprising in the Gallows. The scenario was very believable and I can see something similar happening to him right before DA3. Maybe the templars in Kirkwall decide Cullen is a traitor (after all, he helped Hawke kill Meredith!) or maybe he goes on the run when Lord Seeker Lambert's brand of crazy comes to town. Either way, one man on his own isn't going to survive long so, upon meeting the PC (probably as the PC saves him during a fight), he joins up merely to live another day.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

Ooh, I like these ideas. I'd been thinking before the two traitor thing would be interesting if you suspected both, but one was only a red herring. But, allowing the player's actions to influence who does what would be very interesting. Probably in some cases too many differences for the devs to realistically devote the resources. Like in the latter example of your Hawke's choice determining Cullen's affiliation in DA3, he'd basically have to have completely different dialogue options for each path. BUT I could see Hawke's choice changing Cullen's backstory for what happened between DA2 & DA3. Like, if she was pro-mage he was court marshaled, but if she was pro-templar, he got promoted or something.

Well, what I was thinking could be possible for Cullen's alignment in DA3, would be that depending on who you sided with in DA2 would result in who's side he's on when you meet him, so he could either be found with the Divine OR in the rebel Templars base (we'd visit both but Cullen would only be found in one of them, dependant on who Hawke sided with.) Regardless of where you find him you'd still be able to recruit him but his introductory dialogue would be slightly different as would any subsquent conversations discussing who he allied with. After that things would play out as normal, but you have the option to influence him throughout the game to change sides depending on who you want to side with (or convince him that neither side is right and get him to take a neutral path.) Of course if my theory is correct, whoevers side he starts off on won't matter because the bigger threat will make itself known and blow the whole Mage/Templar thing out of the water lol.

[vieralynn]

meanieweenie wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

You know, thanks for mentioning this, meanie, because that always bugged me about Alistair as well. It was a bit too much of a plot device to give the player agency. I think they'll have the same problem with someone like Cullen (or as mentioned, Cassandra) in your party. Folks who are older -- i.e. much more experienced, much higher level -- following around a greenhorn. So, internal power struggles would be the perfect way to make it more natural.

I keep  wondering what would make him "follow." It could be something like PC and her group have goal X, and Cullen has his own goal Y, but doesn't want to go off on his own for whatever reason. So, he agrees to tag along with her and her group... then let the leadership struggles and back-seat driving ensue.

Also, like the idea of having a traitor in the group... as I think Lola you've brought up before...? I think it would be too hard if it were your LI, but could still be interesting... just too much possibility for frakking it up and pissing off the players, tho, IMO.

It will be interesting after Asunder to see which way Cullen goes. I don't want to spoiler-ize things for those who have not read it. This is what I'm thinking though. If Cullen follows the Divine, it could be totally different thatn Following the Templars. Which would be following the orginal idea of the Templars anyway. How do you explain this with out spoiling things? LOL

I'm willing to bet money that Cullen follows the Divine. I have a hard time reconciling who Cullen is during the end of DA2 with what Lambert turns the Templar order into a few years later, especially in the case where Hawke sides with the Templars and Cullen has his big moment of realizing what "being a templar is all about." But, either way, at the end of DA2, Cullen starts coming to his own personal conclusions about what the templar order should be and I think he'll have a lot of trouble with some of the other ideas that leaders are floating around.

(Hopefully that remains vague enough to not spoil things.)

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

You know, thanks for mentioning this, meanie, because that always bugged me about Alistair as well. It was a bit too much of a plot device to give the player agency. I think they'll have the same problem with someone like Cullen (or as mentioned, Cassandra) in your party. Folks who are older -- i.e. much more experienced, much higher level -- following around a greenhorn. So, internal power struggles would be the perfect way to make it more natural.

I keep  wondering what would make him "follow." It could be something like PC and her group have goal X, and Cullen has his own goal Y, but doesn't want to go off on his own for whatever reason. So, he agrees to tag along with her and her group... then let the leadership struggles and back-seat driving ensue.

Also, like the idea of having a traitor in the group... as I think Lola you've brought up before...? I think it would be too hard if it were your LI, but could still be interesting... just too much possibility for frakking it up and pissing off the players, tho, IMO.

It will be interesting after Asunder to see which way Cullen goes. I don't want to spoiler-ize things for those who have not read it. This is what I'm thinking though. If Cullen follows the Divine, it could be totally different thatn Following the Templars. Which would be following the orginal idea of the Templars anyway. How do you explain this with out spoiling things? LOL

Heh heh, I honestly don't think it's too spoilery. It's common knowledge, via DA2, that the templars no longer follow the Chantry, and that there are still some Chantry-aligned folks like Cassandra trying to fix things. I personally don't think that Cullen would be okay with going back to an Inquisition-like Templar Order, which is the direction I think the templars are now headed ... based on all the hints from DG et al. and the Strategy Guide epilogue. I can't see Cullen being a mage hunter. I think he believes mages can be dangerous, but not that his job is to hunt them down and destroy them. He's so pious, I could see him disagreeing that that was what Andraste intended. But then... his so duty-driven, I could also see that being a hard call for him to make, to no longer follow what the official "Order" is doing. But I also think that his comments in DA2 about what being a templar is about and what the Order stands may even have been intended to set him on this path, to follow his own conscience.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

This brings me nicely onto a question:

What do you think Cullens initial reaction will be to

A) Having to essentially take orders from a mage (especially a pretty female mage)

There being mages in our party

What do you think his vocal reaction (and inner introspective reaction) will be.

Hi guys....

Let me just jump on in at that point and ask this:

What if Cullen isn't in the "take orders" position at all? What if part of the tension is a leadership struggle? For instance, our PC is simply part of a group and not necessarily assumed to be the leader? I say this in the nicest of ways, but the main bone of contention I had with Alistair is that he freely gave authority to a noob. He was the senior and out ranked them all yet let someone else lead without question. The plus is that it added to his character and story as a whole but I don't picture this being a seasoned Templar's temperment.

Anyway, I think it'd be fun to see some kind of scrambling for control of the group. Perhaps only to realize they're all fighting toward the same goal - or maybe not!

You know, thanks for mentioning this, meanie, because that always bugged me about Alistair as well. It was a bit too much of a plot device to give the player agency. I think they'll have the same problem with someone like Cullen (or as mentioned, Cassandra) in your party. Folks who are older -- i.e. much more experienced, much higher level -- following around a greenhorn. So, internal power struggles would be the perfect way to make it more natural.

I keep  wondering what would make him "follow." It could be something like PC and her group have goal X, and Cullen has his own goal Y, but doesn't want to go off on his own for whatever reason. So, he agrees to tag along with her and her group... then let the leadership struggles and back-seat driving ensue.

Also, like the idea of having a traitor in the group... as I think Lola you've brought up before...? I think it would be too hard if it were your LI, but could still be interesting... just too much possibility for frakking it up and pissing off the players, tho, IMO.

I think he'd follow the protagonist if the Divine or Cassandra who has power over the Templars for being a Seeker has specifically ordered him to. I don't think he'd be happy about it but we'd just have to remind him that he was a complete noob when he became the Knight-Captain of Kirkwall (and he knows how hard that was) so he'll just have to put up or shut up LOL!

Alternatively, perhaps if there was an order put out to kill him then he'd need a group of skilled fighters to protect him, so running with our protagonist would present the perfect opportunity for him to save his own arse, not realising what he's letting himself in for.

Oh yes. Both of these.

I can easily see Cullen allying with the Divine and being told to keep an eye on the protagonist. Initially, he's a spy, but as events unfold he may find himself in complete agreement with the PC or he may betray the PC (and no necessarily to the Divine because the political situation may have become far more complex). 

As for the second idea, I once read a short fanfic about Cullen being mob-attacked and run out of Kirkwall shortly after the uprising in the Gallows. The scenario was very believable and I can see something similar happening to him right before DA3. Maybe the templars in Kirkwall decide Cullen is a traitor (after all, he helped Hawke kill Meredith!) or maybe he goes on the run when Lord Seeker Lambert's brand of crazy comes to town. Either way, one man on his own isn't going to survive long so, upon meeting the PC (probably as the PC saves him during a fight), he joins up merely to live another day.

Oooo, can you remember what the short story was called? I wouldn't mind reading that because I actually had an idea for something very similar not so long ago (I think I wrote about it in here actually lol.)

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Ooh, I like these ideas. I'd been thinking before the two traitor thing would be interesting if you suspected both, but one was only a red herring. But, allowing the player's actions to influence who does what would be very interesting. Probably in some cases too many differences for the devs to realistically devote the resources. Like in the latter example of your Hawke's choice determining Cullen's affiliation in DA3, he'd basically have to have completely different dialogue options for each path. BUT I could see Hawke's choice changing Cullen's backstory for what happened between DA2 & DA3. Like, if she was pro-mage he was court marshaled, but if she was pro-templar, he got promoted or something.

Well, what I was thinking could be possible for Cullen's alignment in DA3, would be that depending on who you sided with in DA2 would result in who's side he's on when you meet him, so he could either be found with the Divine OR in the rebel Templars base (we'd visit both but Cullen would only be found in one of them, dependant on who Hawke sided with.) Regardless of where you find him you'd still be able to recruit him but his introductory dialogue would be slightly different as would any subsquent conversations discussing who he allied with. After that things would play out as normal, but you have the option to influence him throughout the game to change sides depending on who you want to side with (or convince him that neither side is right and get him to take a neutral path.) Of course if my theory is correct, whoevers side he starts off on won't matter because the bigger threat will make itself known and blow the whole Mage/Templar thing out of the water lol.

There was a discussion a few months ago on Tumblr about how the bigger thing --- the saving the world from itself --- may have to do with act of doing magic ripping the world apart. 

Here's the theory: any place in thedas that has seen a lot of magic suffers from a weakened veil and can be compared to environmentally toxic places in our world (like, any place with a bad chemical spill that has polluted the land/water). So, as the mage/templar war gets more and more out of control, some larger unknown element comes about that has to do with big, dangerous rips in the veil that make the world itself highly unsafe.

(...without being too completely spoilerific for Asunder, I'm not sure I can believe Cullen would ever join a rebel templar base...)

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

Vieralynn wrote...

Oh yes. Both of these.

I can easily see Cullen allying with the Divine and being told to keep an eye on the protagonist. Initially, he's a spy, but as events unfold he may find himself in complete agreement with the PC or he may betray the PC (and no necessarily to the Divine because the political situation may have become far more complex). 

As for the second idea, I once read a short fanfic about Cullen being mob-attacked and run out of Kirkwall shortly after the uprising in the Gallows. The scenario was very believable and I can see something similar happening to him right before DA3. Maybe the templars in Kirkwall decide Cullen is a traitor (after all, he helped Hawke kill Meredith!) or maybe he goes on the run when Lord Seeker Lambert's brand of crazy comes to town. Either way, one man on his own isn't going to survive long so, upon meeting the PC (probably as the PC saves him during a fight), he joins up merely to live another day.

Oooo, can you remember what the short story was called? I wouldn't mind reading that because I actually had an idea for something very similar not so long ago (I think I wrote about it in here actually lol.)

Don't remember and cannot remember the author either. Unfortunately, it was on AO3 and their search-by-tag function and sort by length function are temporarily disabled, but when I eventually find it, I'll let you know. It was *very* short. Under 1000 words, I think. 

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I think Cullen's initial reaction to joining a mage protagonist would probably be fine to start off with (because he'd be oblivious to the fact that he/she is a mage), until we use our powers for the first time and he'll be like "wtf, you're a mage?! Get back in the Circle!"

OMG. When I first read this, all I could hear in my head was, "You're a woman? Get back in the kitchen!" Jeesh, have I been reading too many feminist manifestos this week or what??

Of course, back to Cullen... this would be even more interesting since... there are no Circles anymore. Heh.Talk about a struggle for our former templar.

Hillarious! This is totally off topic but...  you should've seen the FB pic one of my knuckle draggin' cousins posted recently on FB! The fusillade of insults from my female family members that followed were a site to behold. I told his wife not to give him too hard a time because she'd make his vagina hurt. LOL

Oh dear... now I can only imagine... Yeah, there's been a bit of that going around. Like did you guys hear about this whole twitter debacle over Felicia Day (see! sorta DA related!)? Egad.

Bloody hell, well that's just uncalled for. I mean, I may not be keen on Talis but I've nothing against Felicia Day herself. I don't get why he randomly started attacking her for no reason at all? Was it bitterness and jealousy? Or is he trying to be controversial for attention? Either way the guys a complete ******.

[meanieweenie]

vieralynn wrote...

(...without being too completely spoilerific for Asunder, I'm not sure I can believe Cullen would ever join a rebel templar base...)

Agreed. I imagine he'd remain faithful to the original ideals of the Chantry. Given Lambert's ride on the crazy train, I'd expect some interesting developements to follow with Cullen's sense of right and wrong. Some will color it "siding with the mages" and some will call it being "fair and just". None of it will be apparent when looking from the outside.

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...
 Heh heh, I honestly don't think it's too spoilery. It's common knowledge, via DA2, that the templars no longer follow the Chantry, and that there are still some Chantry-aligned folks like Cassandra trying to fix things. I personally don't think that Cullen would be okay with going back to an Inquisition-like Templar Order, which is the direction I think the templars are now headed ... based on all the hints from DG et al. and the Strategy Guide epilogue. I can't see Cullen being a mage hunter. I think he believes mages can be dangerous, but not that his job is to hunt them down and destroy them. He's so pious, I could see him disagreeing that that was what Andraste intended. But then... his so duty-driven, I could also see that being a hard call for him to make, to no longer follow what the official "Order" is doing. But I also think that his comments in DA2 about what being a templar is about and what the Order stands may even have been intended to set him on this path, to follow his own conscience.

All of this.

I see Cullen as painfully lost until he meets with one of the Divine's personal helpers. Cullen is enough of a nobody (no offense, my dear Knight-Captain) that he might not know anything about the Divine's plans and may only have vague ideas about her sympathies.  

By the time DA2's events come to a close, Cullen has grown a lot of spine and it is hard to see him giving up his hard earned understandings about the world just because the Order says so.

I can imagine him wanting to learn more about the original Andraste and what she believed during her time. This could provide an interesting twist...

[meanieweenie]

LolaLei wrote...

Bloody hell, well that's just uncalled for. I mean, I may not be keen on Talis but I've nothing against Felicia Day herself. I don't get why he randomly started attacking her for no reason at all? Was it bitterness and jealousy? Or is he trying to be controversial for attention? Either way the guys a complete ******.

He was just mad because he couldn't touch her boobies. LOL

[vieralynn]

meanieweenie wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

(...without being too completely spoilerific for Asunder, I'm not sure I can believe Cullen would ever join a rebel templar base...)

Agreed. I imagine he'd remain faithful to the original ideals of the Chantry. Given Lambert's ride on the crazy train, I'd expect some interesting developements to follow with Cullen's sense of right and wrong. Some will color it "siding with the mages" and some will call it being "fair and just". None of it will be apparent when looking from the outside.

Cullen will call it his search for truth. 

I will call it Cullen's dark night of the soul.

[meanieweenie]

vieralynn wrote...

Cullen will call it his search for truth. 

I will call it Cullen's dark night of the soul.

So eloquent vieralynn! Much classier than I would've put it. This is why I don't write fanfic! LOL

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Ooh, I like these ideas. I'd been thinking before the two traitor thing would be interesting if you suspected both, but one was only a red herring. But, allowing the player's actions to influence who does what would be very interesting. Probably in some cases too many differences for the devs to realistically devote the resources. Like in the latter example of your Hawke's choice determining Cullen's affiliation in DA3, he'd basically have to have completely different dialogue options for each path. BUT I could see Hawke's choice changing Cullen's backstory for what happened between DA2 & DA3. Like, if she was pro-mage he was court marshaled, but if she was pro-templar, he got promoted or something.

Well, what I was thinking could be possible for Cullen's alignment in DA3, would be that depending on who you sided with in DA2 would result in who's side he's on when you meet him, so he could either be found with the Divine OR in the rebel Templars base (we'd visit both but Cullen would only be found in one of them, dependant on who Hawke sided with.) Regardless of where you find him you'd still be able to recruit him but his introductory dialogue would be slightly different as would any subsquent conversations discussing who he allied with. After that things would play out as normal, but you have the option to influence him throughout the game to change sides depending on who you want to side with (or convince him that neither side is right and get him to take a neutral path.) Of course if my theory is correct, whoevers side he starts off on won't matter because the bigger threat will make itself known and blow the whole Mage/Templar thing out of the water lol.

There was a discussion a few months ago on Tumblr about how the bigger thing --- the saving the world from itself --- may have to do with act of doing magic ripping the world apart. 

Here's the theory: any place in thedas that has seen a lot of magic suffers from a weakened veil and can be compared to environmentally toxic places in our world (like, any place with a bad chemical spill that has polluted the land/water). So, as the mage/templar war gets more and more out of control, some larger unknown element comes about that has to do with big, dangerous rips in the veil that make the world itself highly unsafe.

(...without being too completely spoilerific for Asunder, I'm not sure I can believe Cullen would ever join a rebel templar base...)

Yeah it's unlikely that he'd side with the rebel Templars, but it would have been a fun idea, maybe they could use it with one of the other companions or something.

I think the bigger threat will be something to do with the veil tearing open too and what with Corypheus still alive perhaps he'd have something to do with it too, by either putting Hawke and the Warden in a position where they aren't around to help sort things out (because they're off trying to fight him/kidnapped) or by some how harnessing the power to summon other ancient magisters by investigating into the whole talking Darkspawn phenomenon or something equally as dangerous, which he'd have access to because he's possessed a Warden's body (either Larius or Janeka AND he can control/talk to Wardens because of their taint, like he did to Anders) so he'd be able to influence the Wardens around him into doing his bidding.

So I think whatever happens it'll be bigger than just a mage/templar war or and it'll be something our new protagonist will either have to do on his/her own OR with the help of Hawke and the Warden (although we probably won't ever see them.)

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

(...without being too completely spoilerific for Asunder, I'm not sure I can believe Cullen would ever join a rebel templar base...)

Agreed. I imagine he'd remain faithful to the original ideals of the Chantry. Given Lambert's ride on the crazy train, I'd expect some interesting developements to follow with Cullen's sense of right and wrong. Some will color it "siding with the mages" and some will call it being "fair and just". None of it will be apparent when looking from the outside.

Cullen will call it his search for truth. 

I will call it Cullen's dark night of the soul.

There ya go! Maybe that could be why he joins our protagonist 'n' co, to do a bit of soul searching and discover the truth lol.

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
 Heh heh, I honestly don't think it's too spoilery. It's common knowledge, via DA2, that the templars no longer follow the Chantry, and that there are still some Chantry-aligned folks like Cassandra trying to fix things. I personally don't think that Cullen would be okay with going back to an Inquisition-like Templar Order, which is the direction I think the templars are now headed ... based on all the hints from DG et al. and the Strategy Guide epilogue. I can't see Cullen being a mage hunter. I think he believes mages can be dangerous, but not that his job is to hunt them down and destroy them. He's so pious, I could see him disagreeing that that was what Andraste intended. But then... his so duty-driven, I could also see that being a hard call for him to make, to no longer follow what the official "Order" is doing. But I also think that his comments in DA2 about what being a templar is about and what the Order stands may even have been intended to set him on this path, to follow his own conscience.

All of this.

I see Cullen as painfully lost until he meets with one of the Divine's personal helpers. Cullen is enough of a nobody (no offense, my dear Knight-Captain) that he might not know anything about the Divine's plans and may only have vague ideas about her sympathies.  

By the time DA2's events come to a close, Cullen has grown a lot of spine and it is hard to see him giving up his hard earned understandings about the world just because the Order says so.

I can imagine him wanting to learn more about the original Andraste and what she believed during her time. This could provide an interesting twist...

Gah, I would love this! I secretly want them to discover in DA3 that Andraste was a mage! But regardless, I really like the idea of him being the driver of a movement to go back to the original source and ask WWAD? (What Would Andraste Do?) To kind of turn the whole preceived religious fundamentalism of the Chantry on its head and find out that at its heart, Andraste had the right idea, and it's the organizational structures surrounding the church that over time lost their way.

I also like your idea that it takes Cullen meeting one of the Divine's helpers to finally give his some peace with this new path and to legitimize his concerns. That he can still follow his own beliefs about how to protect mage at the same time as following the Divine.

[meanieweenie]

R2s Muse wrote...

 But regardless, I really like the idea of him being the driver of a movement to go back to the original source and ask WWAD? (What Would Andraste Do?)

Oh snap! Someone needs to write Bioware RIGHT NOW and give them this marketing scheme! I envision a buttload of WWAD rubber braclets being shipped with every game. And if you act now, you'll also get a free WWAD t shirts and collector's edition lyrium etched hand cuffs. (uses may vary)

Modifié par meanieweenie, 07 juillet 2012 - 01:51 .

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

 But regardless, I really like the idea of him being the driver of a movement to go back to the original source and ask WWAD? (What Would Andraste Do?)

Oh snap! Someone needs to write Bioware RIGHT NOW and give them this marketing scheme! I envision a buttload of WWAD rubber braclets being shipped with every game. And if you act now, you'll also get a free WWAD t shirts and collector's edition lyrium etched hand cuffs. (uses may vary)

This made me literally LOL. "uses may vary" bwaahaahaa! :lol:

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

 But regardless, I really like the idea of him being the driver of a movement to go back to the original source and ask WWAD? (What Would Andraste Do?)

Oh snap! Someone needs to write Bioware RIGHT NOW and give them this marketing scheme! I envision a buttload of WWAD rubber braclets being shipped with every game. And if you act now, you'll also get a free WWAD t shirts and collector's edition lyrium etched hand cuffs. (uses may vary)

This made me literally LOL. "uses may vary" bwaahaahaa! :lol:

I'll take 20!

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

All of this.

I see Cullen as painfully lost until he meets with one of the Divine's personal helpers. Cullen is enough of a nobody (no offense, my dear Knight-Captain) that he might not know anything about the Divine's plans and may only have vague ideas about her sympathies.  

By the time DA2's events come to a close, Cullen has grown a lot of spine and it is hard to see him giving up his hard earned understandings about the world just because the Order says so.

I can imagine him wanting to learn more about the original Andraste and what she believed during her time. This could provide an interesting twist...

Gah, I would love this! I secretly want them to discover in DA3 that Andraste was a mage! But regardless, I really like the idea of him being the driver of a movement to go back to the original source and ask WWAD? (What Would Andraste Do?) To kind of turn the whole preceived religious fundamentalism of the Chantry on its head and find out that at its heart, Andraste had the right idea, and it's the organizational structures surrounding the church that over time lost their way.

I also like your idea that it takes Cullen meeting one of the Divine's helpers to finally give his some peace with this new path and to legitimize his concerns. That he can still follow his own beliefs about how to protect mage at the same time as following the Divine.

I second meanieweenie:  bioware needs to make WWAD braclets and tee-shirts!  

I sort of think that Cullen is quietly starting his WWAD quest during DA2's Act 3. He knows that the Order is heading in the wrong direction under Meredith's rule, and he is starting to see how the Order's morally unjust abuses go against any sort of teachings about what is good and right. 

Even before he starts questioning the Order, he always speaks about some of the more problematic things that the Templars do (tranquility, harrowings) as acts of mercy. It seems like he has been clutching at straws for years, trying to find a moral compass that the simple goodness and compassion that religion supposedly teaches with the realities he is faced with as a Templar. It seems like until DA2's Act 3 he is able to sweep those inconsistencies under the rug. He can't once Meredith believes that the ends justifies any means, no matter how horrific. So, it seems to me that Andrastrian faith is the only thing Cullen is left with when the credits roll at the end of DA2.

I really feel for the guy because there is something so painfully idealistic about his piousness (assuming I'm right in saying that Andrastrian faith is all he has left). I mean, religion is such a human construct. Religious norms change over time to suit human needs, which are often political needs and completely divorsed from the kind of goodness and compassion that the original founder may (or may not!) have intended in their teachings. 

So, if a religious reckoning ends up being Cullen's story arc in DA3, I really feel for him because, at least to me, it is an impossible journey no matter how noble his intent may be. 

[meanieweenie]

I'm totally going to look into rubber WWAD braclets - because I'm bored and gratuitous. If I end up ordering a few then you're entitled to freebies because R2 lit the flame of ingenuity and Lola was there to fan the flames.  Vieralynn - you're an accomplice too so you're in. LOL

On that note, I bid you adieu!!

Modifié par meanieweenie, 07 juillet 2012 - 02:13 .

[meanieweenie]

vieralynn wrote...

I really feel for the guy because there is something so painfully idealistic about his piousness (assuming I'm right in saying that Andrastrian faith is all he has left). I mean, religion is such a human construct. Religious norms change over time to suit human needs, which are often political needs and completely divorsed from the kind of goodness and compassion that the original founder may (or may not!) have intended in their teachings. 

So, if a religious reckoning ends up being Cullen's story arc in DA3, I really feel for him because, at least to me, it is an impossible journey no matter how noble his intent may be. 

I love you for this and agree completely. Respectfully, I reserve any further comment simply for the fact that I don't feel like potentially ruffling feathers tonight. I'm really signing off now....  

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

All of this.

I see Cullen as painfully lost until he meets with one of the Divine's personal helpers. Cullen is enough of a nobody (no offense, my dear Knight-Captain) that he might not know anything about the Divine's plans and may only have vague ideas about her sympathies.  

By the time DA2's events come to a close, Cullen has grown a lot of spine and it is hard to see him giving up his hard earned understandings about the world just because the Order says so.

I can imagine him wanting to learn more about the original Andraste and what she believed during her time. This could provide an interesting twist...

Gah, I would love this! I secretly want them to discover in DA3 that Andraste was a mage! But regardless, I really like the idea of him being the driver of a movement to go back to the original source and ask WWAD? (What Would Andraste Do?) To kind of turn the whole preceived religious fundamentalism of the Chantry on its head and find out that at its heart, Andraste had the right idea, and it's the organizational structures surrounding the church that over time lost their way.

I also like your idea that it takes Cullen meeting one of the Divine's helpers to finally give his some peace with this new path and to legitimize his concerns. That he can still follow his own beliefs about how to protect mage at the same time as following the Divine.

I second meanieweenie:  bioware needs to make WWAD braclets and tee-shirts!  

I sort of think that Cullen is quietly starting his WWAD quest during DA2's Act 3. He knows that the Order is heading in the wrong direction under Meredith's rule, and he is starting to see how the Order's morally unjust abuses go against any sort of teachings about what is good and right. 

Even before he starts questioning the Order, he always speaks about some of the more problematic things that the Templars do (tranquility, harrowings) as acts of mercy. It seems like he has been clutching at straws for years, trying to find a moral compass that the simple goodness and compassion that religion supposedly teaches with the realities he is faced with as a Templar. It seems like until DA2's Act 3 he is able to sweep those inconsistencies under the rug. He can't once Meredith believes that the ends justifies any means, no matter how horrific. So, it seems to me that Andrastrian faith is the only thing Cullen is left with when the credits roll at the end of DA2.

I really feel for the guy because there is something so painfully idealistic about his piousness (assuming I'm right in saying that Andrastrian faith is all he has left). I mean, religion is such a human construct. Religious norms change over time to suit human needs, which are often political needs and completely divorsed from the kind of goodness and compassion that the original founder may (or may not!) have intended in their teachings. 

So, if a religious reckoning ends up being Cullen's story arc in DA3, I really feel for him because, at least to me, it is an impossible journey no matter how noble his intent may be. 

I actually wonder if the reason he clung so desperately to the Templar Order was more to do with his own need for something to define him/believe in and to feel part of something, rather than being religious to an extreme like he appears to the untrained eye. I kinda feel like he uses his religion and job as a means to punish himself and perhaps convinces himself that he believes in every aspect of the Chantry rules because he just wants to do something right and "belong" somewhere... until the end of DA2 when he finally starts to question things (which has no doubt stirred up some difficult emotions within him.)

If that's the case then this could potentially make for a very interesting story arc for his character. Maybe the reason he allows his emotions get so intense towards certain things (like our Warden and the Templar Order) could be due to his childhood, especially if he was orphaned or abandoned... or maybe he was responsible for the death of his family, perhaps he believes that he put his family in danger and as a result caused their untimely demise, so he punishes himself through his work and doesn't allow himself to find peace of mind or happiness.

Modifié par LolaLei, 07 juillet 2012 - 02:25 .

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

I actually wonder if the reason he clung so desperately to the Templar Order was more to do with his own need for something to define him/believe in and to feel part of something, rather than being religious to an extreme like he appears to the untrained eye. I kinda feel like he uses his religion and job as a means to punish himself and perhaps convinces himself that he believes in every aspect of the Chantry rules because he just wants to do something right and "belong" somewhere... until the end of DA2 when he finally starts to question things (which has no doubt stirred up some difficult emotions within him.)

If that's the case then this could potentially make for a very interesting story arc for his character. Maybe the reason he allows his emotions get so intense towards certain things (like our Warden and the Templar Order) could be due to his childhood, especially if he was orphaned or abandoned... or maybe he was responsible for the death of his family, perhaps he believes that he put his family in danger and as a result caused their untimely demise, so he punishes himself through his work and doesn't allow himself to find peace of mind or happiness.

All of this is giving me huge Cullen feels. I can see a mix of this plus him actually believing or trying to believe in Andrastrian teachings because is what he is supposed to do. DG's comment about Cullen having a lot of angst in his future makes so much sense in light of all the things we've mentioned today.

(now I just want to give the poor lost templar a hug.)  :innocent:


I need to sign off for a few hours. Must find food else I'll pass out on my computer.