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The Official Knight-Captain Cullen Discussion thread 2.0.


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#6401
R2s Muse

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Xilizhra wrote...

Assuming the PC is a Seeker, they would still be affiliated with the Chantry, and the templars are just as much renegades from it as the mages. So Cullen would have to be willing to side against the templars to join the PC, and to be honest, I don't really see this happening. He had doubts about Meredith, but Meredith by the time of Act 3 was down to the "talking to herself and hearing her sword sing" level of insanity, and Cullen still defended her until she turned on her own subordinates. Including him. I've never really seen him doubt the very premise of the Templar Order, and that's something that I think would be necessary.


But Cullen already showed very clearly at the end of DA2 that he's prepared to follow what he thinks the Order stands for, not necessarily the powers that be. And, thus, he can defy Meredith not once, but twice if you let the mages surrender on a pro-templar run. So, it is perfectly conceivable that he would be one of the Templars who remain loyal to the Chantry and does not follow the official (Seeker-led) Order into their separation and subsequent war on the mages. We'll just have to wait and see where all the cards fall. Moreover, the Seekers themselves are technically no longer under the authority of the Chantry either. So, if the PC were a Seeker, there's also no telling which side he/she would be on, standing with the official Seekers of Truth or remaining loyal to the Chantry. 

#6402
Xilizhra

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See, that's one of the reasons that Cullen probably won't be a companion/LI, but that doesn't stop me from hoping that he is one lol. That being said, the Templar Order is now in complete disarray because not only have the Mages gone rogue but the Templars have rebelled too, however, I can't see Cullen siding with the rebel Mages because he's so regimented when it comes to following the Chantries rules, and since the Templars have broken away from the Chantry he'd probably go straight to the Divine to seek guidance. If that's the case then it opens up several possibilities as to how he could end up becoming a companion.

In DA, you tend to have much more freedom to pick your allegiances than you do in ME. I hope this continues to be the case, but I don't quite see Cullen following you down the path I would take.

During the course of DA2, over time he begins to voice his concerns about Meredith and the Order. There's no denying that in Act 1 he's a extremely anti-mage, but don't forget he's still suffering PTSD after his torture at the hands of the blood mages in DA:O; BUT over time he does start to mellow, to the extent that a pro-mage Hawke can influence his views, hell, if he hated mages that much then he wouldn't have spoken to Hawke about our female Amell Warden so wistfully. And let us not forget that he spared the 3 escaped mages at the end of Act 3 and defended them against Meredith (you only get to see it if you side with the Templars though.)

I find Cullen interesting. I sympathize with Cullen. But I don't like him in the slightest, and that templar ending scene does nothing to change this. He's slaughtered an uncounted number of mages who were only defending themselves. Finding a pitiful shadow of a conscience here does not make him likeable to me, not until he follows up on this far more.

But Cullen already showed very clearly at the end of DA2 that he's
prepared to follow what he thinks the Order stands for, not necessarily
the powers that be. And, thus, he can defy Meredith not once, but twice
if you let the mages surrender on a pro-templar run. So, it is perfectly
conceivable that he would be one of the Templars who remain loyal to
the Chantry and does not follow the official (Seeker-led) Order into
their separation and subsequent war on the mages. We'll just have to
wait and see where all the cards fall. Moreover, the Seekers themselves
are technically no longer under the authority of the Chantry either. So,
if the PC were a Seeker, there's also no telling which side he/she
would be on, standing with the official Seekers of Truth or remaining
loyal to the Chantry.

Since the Chantry is a "neutral" faction between mages and templars, it'd make far more sense if the PC started out there. As for the rest... he defies Meredith, but Meredith is so completely nuts that I doubt even Lambert would endorse her "accuse absolutely everyone of being a blood mage thrall and try to use an eldritch artifact to crush people with Tevinter statuary" policy. Defying, say, Greagoir, would have much more impact.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 17 juillet 2012 - 12:52 .


#6403
LolaLei

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Xilizhra wrote...

I find Cullen interesting. I sympathize with Cullen. But I don't like him in the slightest, and that templar ending scene does nothing to change this. He's slaughtered an uncounted number of mages who were only defending themselves. Finding a pitiful shadow of a conscience here does not make him likeable to me, not until he follows up on this far more.

*snip*

Since the Chantry is a "neutral" faction between mages and templars, it'd make far more sense if the PC started out there. As for the rest... he defies Meredith, but Meredith is so completely nuts that I doubt even Lambert would endorse her "accuse absolutely everyone of being a blood mage thrall and try to use an eldritch artifact to crush people with Tevinter statuary" policy. Defying, say, Greagoir, would have much more impact.



Well, he'd probably tell the PC to go **** off if he/she went down a path he didn't like lol, which could be fun!

Don't get me wrong, I can see why people didn't like him, especially with his actions in DA2. A lot of people consider his actions at the end of Act 3 as cowardice, but I'd personally blame that on rushed writing on the DA teams part. For example, David Gaider said in an interview that Cullen was supposed to be the voice of reason within the Templars, but I don't think they done the best job of showing that side of him. Which is another reason why I'd like him to be a companion in DA3, I wanna give him the chance to speak up, tell us exactly what happened during his time in Kirkwall and within the Templar Order and see him redeem himself.

If they spend time making DA3 the best game it can be, then perhaps we'll be able to sympathise with all the companions and NPCs on a deeper level this time round.

Modifié par LolaLei, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:08 .


#6404
LolaLei

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As for having the PC as a neutral fraction, I'd personally prefer to them to be a nomad/traveler with no ties to any fraction at all.

#6405
Xilizhra

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For example, David Gaider said in an interview that Cullen was supposed to be the voice of reason within the Templars, but I don't think they done the best job of showing that side of him. Which is another reason why I'd like him to be a companion in DA3, I wanna give him the chance to speak up, tell us exactly what happened during his time in Kirkwall and within the Templar Order and see him redeem himself.

"Voice of reason" and "templars" just... don't add up to me. You can't have both, in my own opinion. Thrask and Keran were the closest things to that we got, and they both rebelled. And I don't consider Cullen a coward, I consider him a despicable mass murderer whom I'm not given the option of doing anything about at the end of the game.

#6406
Melca36

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Xilizhra wrote...

Assuming the PC is a Seeker, they would still be affiliated with the Chantry, and the templars are just as much renegades from it as the mages. So Cullen would have to be willing to side against the templars to join the PC, and to be honest, I don't really see this happening. He had doubts about Meredith, but Meredith by the time of Act 3 was down to the "talking to herself and hearing her sword sing" level of insanity, and Cullen still defended her until she turned on her own subordinates. Including him. I've never really seen him doubt the very premise of the Templar Order, and that's something that I think would be necessary.


The PC won't be a Seeker. They want the game to sell so they would NEVER do that.

#6407
LolaLei

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Xilizhra wrote...

For example, David Gaider said in an interview that Cullen was supposed to be the voice of reason within the Templars, but I don't think they done the best job of showing that side of him. Which is another reason why I'd like him to be a companion in DA3, I wanna give him the chance to speak up, tell us exactly what happened during his time in Kirkwall and within the Templar Order and see him redeem himself.

"Voice of reason" and "templars" just... don't add up to me. You can't have both, in my own opinion. Thrask and Keran were the closest things to that we got, and they both rebelled. And I don't consider Cullen a coward, I consider him a despicable mass murderer whom I'm not given the option of doing anything about at the end of the game.


I agree, "Voice of reason" and "Templars" don't go together, because the DA team haven't shown us enough sympathetic Templar characters. If they had given us a better glimpse into the Templar Order, during which we witness decent Templar folk making tough decisions, suffering lyrium addiction etc, then perhaps people would be more inclined to feel for them. Maybe that's something they'll go into more detail in with DA3.

Why bother to "do something" about him in DA2, when you may get the option to kill him off spectacularly in DA3? I'm all for given us as players the option to kill off all/any of our companions if we don't like them. I personally, won't be killing off Cullen as my Mage protagonist has every intention of shagging the guy rotten, given half the chance. But I never kill off any of my companions anyway, even if they do behave like douche bags lol.

Modifié par LolaLei, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:14 .


#6408
Xilizhra

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I agree, "Voice of reason" and "Templars" don't go together, because the DA team haven't shown us enough sympathetic Templar characters. If they had given us a better glimpse into the Templar Order, during which we witness decent Templar folk making tough decisions, suffering lyrium addiction etc, then perhaps people would be more inclined to feel for them. Maybe that's something they'll go into more detail in with DA3.

Really... the codex entry says outright that the Chantry looks for amoral religious zealots to recruit. I just don't think there are very many decent templars at all, and they're not in any statistically significant numbers.

Why bother to "do something" about him in DA2, when you may get the option to kill him off spectacularly in DA3? I'm all for given us as players the option to kill off all/any of our companions if we don't like them. I personally, won't be killing off Cullen as my Mage protagonist has every intention of shagging the guy rotten, given half the chance. But I never kill off any of my companions anyway, even if they do behave like douche bags lol.

I don't kill companions either, which is why; if he's a companion, I'm never going to be the sort of person who'd kill my own people unless it's inevitable, like in ME1.

#6409
LolaLei

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Xilizhra wrote...

I agree, "Voice of reason" and "Templars" don't go together, because the DA team haven't shown us enough sympathetic Templar characters. If they had given us a better glimpse into the Templar Order, during which we witness decent Templar folk making tough decisions, suffering lyrium addiction etc, then perhaps people would be more inclined to feel for them. Maybe that's something they'll go into more detail in with DA3.

Really... the codex entry says outright that the Chantry looks for amoral religious zealots to recruit. I just don't think there are very many decent templars at all, and they're not in any statistically significant numbers.

Why bother to "do something" about him in DA2, when you may get the option to kill him off spectacularly in DA3? I'm all for given us as players the option to kill off all/any of our companions if we don't like them. I personally, won't be killing off Cullen as my Mage protagonist has every intention of shagging the guy rotten, given half the chance. But I never kill off any of my companions anyway, even if they do behave like douche bags lol.

I don't kill companions either, which is why; if he's a companion, I'm never going to be the sort of person who'd kill my own people unless it's inevitable, like in ME1.


Yeah I saw it, I guess David Gaider either contradicted himself or retconned it again. Who knows what goes on in DG's head lol. But the fact that there seems to be so few decent Templars, should be even more reason to show us them. I'll be honest, most of the Templars in DA2 were total tossers and I killed as many as possible for that reason. But I don't consider Cullen to be anywhere near as bad as the other Templars, he's just very messed up at the moment, which we know to be true because he was very reasonable and sympathetic towards the mage Wardens in the DA:O origin prologues. I honestly believe that he'll redeem himself fully.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say he's a mass murderer? Is that due to his DA:O epilogues, or did I miss something in DA2?

Modifié par LolaLei, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:25 .


#6410
Xilizhra

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Yeah I saw it, I guess David Gaider either contradicted himself or retconned it again. Who knows what goes on in DG's head lol. But the fact that there seems to be so few decent Templars, should be even more reason to show us them. I'll be honest, most of the Templars in DA2 were total tossers and I killed as many as possible for that reason. But I don't consider Cullen to be anywhere near as bad as the other Templars, he's just very messed up at the moment, which we know to be true because he was very reasonable and sympathetic towards the mage Wardens in the DA:O origin prologues. I honestly believe that he'll redeem himself fully.

Cullen's traumatized, yes, though when I compare his reaction to Keran's... eh. I think Gaider wanted to try to even things out some in DA2, but with luck, he's realized that it's futile. Maybe the choice will be between the mages and the Chantry in DA3, with the templars as straight-up villains. That might be nice.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say he's a mass murderer? Is that due to his DA:O epilogues, or did I miss something in DA2?

He participated and commanded troops in the Annulment.

#6411
LolaLei

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah I saw it, I guess David Gaider either contradicted himself or retconned it again. Who knows what goes on in DG's head lol. But the fact that there seems to be so few decent Templars, should be even more reason to show us them. I'll be honest, most of the Templars in DA2 were total tossers and I killed as many as possible for that reason. But I don't consider Cullen to be anywhere near as bad as the other Templars, he's just very messed up at the moment, which we know to be true because he was very reasonable and sympathetic towards the mage Wardens in the DA:O origin prologues. I honestly believe that he'll redeem himself fully.

Cullen's traumatized, yes, though when I compare his reaction to Keran's... eh. I think Gaider wanted to try to even things out some in DA2, but with luck, he's realized that it's futile. Maybe the choice will be between the mages and the Chantry in DA3, with the templars as straight-up villains. That might be nice.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say he's a mass murderer? Is that due to his DA:O epilogues, or did I miss something in DA2?

He participated and commanded troops in the Annulment.


I wouldn't say it's futile, but they'll need to put a lot of thought into things to make it work. LOL now that would be an interesting idea having them as straight-up villians, but I doubt it would happen, Bioware like to have their villians left morally grey just to make things difficult.

You're talking about the Annulment in DA2 right? It was Meredith that wanted the Annulment put in place, Cullen steps in and says that he doesn't believe it's needed in Kirkwall because the situation isn't out of control (I don't recall if you get to see that if you side with the mages though.) As for the Annulment in DA:O, of course he'd support it back then, he'd been tortured solidly for weeks/months and wasn't thinking straight. Wouldn't you want revenge if someone had killed all your friends infront of you then tortured you for weeks on end? I know I would.

#6412
Xilizhra

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I wouldn't say it's futile, but they'll need to put a lot of thought into things to make it work. LOL now that would be an interesting idea having them as straight-up villians, but I doubt it would happen, Bioware like to have their villians left morally grey just to make things difficult.

Except for Cerberus.

You're talking about the Annulment in DA2 right? It was Meredith that wanted the Annulment put in place, Cullen steps in and says that he doesn't believe it's needed in Kirkwall because the situation isn't out of control (I don't recall if you get to see that if you side with the mages though.) As for the Annulment in DA:O, of course he'd support it back then, he'd been tortured solidly for weeks/months and wasn't thinking straight. Wouldn't you want revenge if someone had killed all your friends infront of you then tortured you for weeks on end? I know I would.

Cullen didn't put his actions where his mouth was. Even if he spoke against the Annulment, he still participated in it. This is bad enough.

#6413
LolaLei

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Xilizhra wrote...

I wouldn't say it's futile, but they'll need to put a lot of thought into things to make it work. LOL now that would be an interesting idea having them as straight-up villians, but I doubt it would happen, Bioware like to have their villians left morally grey just to make things difficult.

Except for Cerberus.

You're talking about the Annulment in DA2 right? It was Meredith that wanted the Annulment put in place, Cullen steps in and says that he doesn't believe it's needed in Kirkwall because the situation isn't out of control (I don't recall if you get to see that if you side with the mages though.) As for the Annulment in DA:O, of course he'd support it back then, he'd been tortured solidly for weeks/months and wasn't thinking straight. Wouldn't you want revenge if someone had killed all your friends infront of you then tortured you for weeks on end? I know I would.

Cullen didn't put his actions where his mouth was. Even if he spoke against the Annulment, he still participated in it. This is bad enough.


Cerberus weren't all bad, not in the beginning. TiM was indoctrinated, which made his actions worse.

The Annulment wasn't put into place in DA2 until Meredith announced it out of the blue at the end of Act 3, prior to that there were no plans to use it at all and was not even a consideration, therefore he didn't knowingly participate in it. Nor do we see or hear about him killing any mages in DA2 (his DA:O epilogues were retconned and no longer count.)

#6414
Xilizhra

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Cerberus weren't all bad, not in the beginning. TiM was indoctrinated, which made his actions worse.

True, I meant in ME3.

The Annulment wasn't put into place in DA2 until Meredith announced it out of the blue at the end of Act 3, prior to that there were no plans to use it at all and was not even a consideration, therefore he didn't knowingly participate in it. Nor do we see or hear about him killing any mages in DA2 (his DA:O epilogues were retconned and no longer count.)

He did, however, follow Meredith through the Annulment, which you can see if you side with her. Assuming he wasn't just twiddling his thumbs the whole time, he did participate in said mass murder.

#6415
LolaLei

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Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus weren't all bad, not in the beginning. TiM was indoctrinated, which made his actions worse.

True, I meant in ME3.

The Annulment wasn't put into place in DA2 until Meredith announced it out of the blue at the end of Act 3, prior to that there were no plans to use it at all and was not even a consideration, therefore he didn't knowingly participate in it. Nor do we see or hear about him killing any mages in DA2 (his DA:O epilogues were retconned and no longer count.)

He did, however, follow Meredith through the Annulment, which you can see if you side with her. Assuming he wasn't just twiddling his thumbs the whole time, he did participate in said mass murder.


Oh yeah, in ME3 he was mental as hell lol. But I still felt sorry for him, he tried to out smart the reapers and failed... plus Martin Sheen done an amazing job voicing his character, so it's possible for me to hate him lol.

How could he have followed Meredith through the Annulment when he didn't know about it until she announced it? The minute she announces it he stops and tells her he'll take the blame if it turns out that the escaped mages are demons/blood mages, we then go straight into a fight with Orsino. After that Meredith finally loses the plot completely, to which she threatens Hawke 'n' co's life and Cullen once again steps in against Meredith and tells to step down, she then accuses him of being under the influence of a blood mage and he sides with Hawke which triggers the final boss fight with her. THEN he either bows to Hawke 'n' her companions (if you sided with the Templars) OR he lets them escape.

I assume he killed anyone that attacked him during the push to the final battle, just like Hawke did with anyone that attack him/her.

#6416
Xilizhra

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How could he have followed Meredith through the Annulment when he didn't know about it until she announced it? The minute she announces it he stops and tells her he'll take the blame if it turns out that the escaped mages are demons/blood mages, we then go straight into a fight with Orsino. After that Meredith finally loses the plot completely, to which she threatens Hawke 'n' co's life and Cullen once again steps in against Meredith and tells to step down, she then accuses him of being under the influence of a blood mage and he sides with Hawke which triggers the final boss fight with her. THEN he either bows to Hawke 'n' her companions (if you sided with the Templars) OR he lets them escape.

Wait... what? So that whole period between Meredith's declaration of the Annulment and the fight over to the Gallows didn't happen? I admit that I've never even seen the templar ending, but from the mage side, the Annulment is definitely happening; you see a scene when a bunch of templars wind up creating an abomination. How did Cullen do nothing at all? Was he just hanging around in the Gallows as the fighting spilled around?

#6417
LolaLei

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Xilizhra wrote...

How could he have followed Meredith through the Annulment when he didn't know about it until she announced it? The minute she announces it he stops and tells her he'll take the blame if it turns out that the escaped mages are demons/blood mages, we then go straight into a fight with Orsino. After that Meredith finally loses the plot completely, to which she threatens Hawke 'n' co's life and Cullen once again steps in against Meredith and tells to step down, she then accuses him of being under the influence of a blood mage and he sides with Hawke which triggers the final boss fight with her. THEN he either bows to Hawke 'n' her companions (if you sided with the Templars) OR he lets them escape.

Wait... what? So that whole period between Meredith's declaration of the Annulment and the fight over to the Gallows didn't happen? I admit that I've never even seen the templar ending, but from the mage side, the Annulment is definitely happening; you see a scene when a bunch of templars wind up creating an abomination. How did Cullen do nothing at all? Was he just hanging around in the Gallows as the fighting spilled around?


Ok, now I'm confused. I'm gonna need to watch videos of the fight up to the Gallows from both sides, because I don't recall seeing the Templars creating an abomination... does this happen in a cutscene or is it just a random fight encounter?

#6418
Xilizhra

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Ok, now I'm confused. I'm gonna need to watch videos of the fight up to the Gallows from both sides, because I don't recall seeing the Templars creating an abomination... does this happen in a cutscene or is it just a random fight encounter?

A bunch of templars surround a mage with intent to kill, she tells them to go away, they don't, she transforms and attacks, then Hawke kills them both.

#6419
LolaLei

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Xilizhra wrote...

Ok, now I'm confused. I'm gonna need to watch videos of the fight up to the Gallows from both sides, because I don't recall seeing the Templars creating an abomination... does this happen in a cutscene or is it just a random fight encounter?

A bunch of templars surround a mage with intent to kill, she tells them to go away, they don't, she transforms and attacks, then Hawke kills them both.


Can't find a vid of that, but I stand corrected, Meredith does indeed announce the Rite of Annulment if you side with the Mages, I was getting confused with the Rite of Tranquility LOL. In which case I guess he agreed with it right up until he realised Meredith was stark raving mad. I'm not entirely sure if that one can be put down to bad writing or not really, but I stand by my thoughts that Cullen isn't all bad, even if it does take him until the last minute to realise that Meredith is in the wrong... he always was slow on the up-take lol.

#6420
Xilizhra

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Is it bad writing? Even Carver proves evil enough to follow it if he's a templar. The Order just breeds it in its culture, and it seems you need to leave altogether to escape it.

#6421
LolaLei

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Xilizhra wrote...

Is it bad writing? Even Carver proves evil enough to follow it if he's a templar. The Order just breeds it in its culture, and it seems you need to leave altogether to escape it.


I guess it depends on who you side with then. Here's Cullen defending the 3 Mages from Annulment if you side with the Templars, during this scenario she hasn't announced the Rite of Annulment until that very moment:



Carver will still protect his brother/sister though, which is something at least.

But as I said, I don't agree with the Templars methods which is why I kill as many as I can. I'm aware that Cullen may have not been the bravest or the smartest when it comes to his actions in DA2, but that's what makes his story arc so interesting. I wanna find out why he did and/or didn't do certain things and I want to see him suffering the effects of his past actions, in order for the protagonist to help him over come his issues and redeem himself it would be necessary for them to depict this in his personal development... that's presuming that they want him to redeem himself at all, they could take many different roads with his character which is why he should definitely be in DA3 in some capacity, be it as a hero or villian.

Either way, I don't consider him a lost cause yet.

Modifié par LolaLei, 17 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .


#6422
LolaLei

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This thread needs more Cullen pictures:

Image IPB

There, that's SO much better!

#6423
erilben

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LolaLei wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Is it bad writing? Even Carver proves evil enough to follow it if he's a templar. The Order just breeds it in its culture, and it seems you need to leave altogether to escape it.


I guess it depends on who you side with then. Here's Cullen defending the 3 Mages from Annulment if you side with the Templars, during this scenario she hasn't announced the Rite of Annulment until that very moment:




Meredith invokes the Annulment long before this. She does it right after Anders blows up the chantry, and then she forces you to pick a side.

But that cutscene you linked is the one that made me think Cullen is a coward. I picked the "it's not my decision-- I'm not the knight-commander". Of course, Meredith agrees with this. Cullen responds by saying/doing nothing while Meredith kills the mages. The mages are only saved if Hawke stands up to Meredith. Cullen is too cowardly to do anything.

Modifié par erilben, 17 juillet 2012 - 03:11 .


#6424
LolaLei

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Well that shows how long it's been since I've played the game doesn't it LOL! I'd look it up on YouTube but it's 4am in the morning and I'm typing this on my phone. I'll look it up later.

As I said above, he has a lot of flaws, which is something that we will hopefully get to explore futher in DA3. Regardless, love him or hate him he's one of those characters that generates a lot of attention, be it through fandom or controversy and David Gaider 'n' co love that, so I'm pretty sure he'll turn up again in DA3 in some form, be it a companion, NPC, good guy/bad guy or whatever.

Out of curiosity again, is there any particular reason why you guys came in here to talk about him when you dislike him so much? Surely you wouldn't wanna waste your time talking about it? Or did you just fancy a debate?

Modifié par LolaLei, 17 juillet 2012 - 03:24 .


#6425
Xilizhra

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Out of curiosity again, is there any particular reason why you guys came in here to talk about him when you dislike him so much? Surely you wouldn't wanna waste your time talking about it? Or did you just fancy a debate?

I wanted to ask about what his role might be and it snowballed from there.