89415 réponses à ce sujet

[TreeHuggerHannah]

 At this point I will simply agree to disagree. 

[Chiantirose1982]

Xilizhra wrote...

From a canon standpoint, I have to say I disagree with this - that is in fact exactly where his boundary seems to be on the subject. If you side with the templars (which I didn't, my Hawke sided reluctantly with mages, but I've watched various alternate versions) Cullen will defy Meredith about sparing the mages who surrendered when she wants them dead. His argument for doing so is that things were even worse during the Ferelden situation, and even then some mage lives were saved.

The mages in question are rendered Tranquil after the battle, so it doesn't mean much. He also has no qualms about slaughtering those who only want to defend themselves, or even if he does, will still do so. As does Hawke if siding with the templars.

How do you know that? I just rewatched that scene and there was no mention of making them Tranquil. Also Cullen took responsibility for them and he is the next in line after Meredith. Who would make them Tranquil? Meredith is dead, so unless Cullen goes against his word or someone does it without asking him, I don't see how this is known as fact.

It's the same with people saying the Kirkwall Circle was all but wiped out. How to they know that? When you side with the Mages, Varric says at the end "She/He had defended the Mages against a brutal injustice and many lived to tell the tale.", the wiki also says nothing about it either, so where does this come from? Devs quotes? I honestly would like to know. 

[Mahumia]

I personally have the idea that there are survivers, whether you side with the mages or the templars. The first line of defense dies, but not the whole tower. But I guess it is open for interpretation as one wishes.

Also, I agree with Chiantirose regarding mages: in DA:O it is stated that all mages are either killed or turned tranquil during a rite of annulment. However, this rite was invoked in an illegal way and Cullen states that this circle is not beyond help: therefore I doubt that the rite will be completed after Meredith is gone.

[Xilizhra]

How do you know that? I just rewatched that scene and there was no mention of making them Tranquil. Also Cullen took responsibility for them and he is the next in line after Meredith. Who would make them Tranquil? Meredith is dead, so unless Cullen goes against his word or someone does it without asking him, I don't see how this is known as fact.

Word of Gaider.

[Chiantirose1982]

Xilizhra wrote...

How do you know that? I just rewatched that scene and there was no mention of making them Tranquil. Also Cullen took responsibility for them and he is the next in line after Meredith. Who would make them Tranquil? Meredith is dead, so unless Cullen goes against his word or someone does it without asking him, I don't see how this is known as fact.

Word of Gaider.

Ahh, thanks. You know as much as I admire his work, sometimes I think he just says things so he can stop arguing with people. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Mahumia]

I love Gaiders work, but sometimes he seems to be contradicting his own lore... I just keep with my own headcanon here

[LolaLei]

Xilizhra wrote...

How do you know that? I just rewatched that scene and there was no mention of making them Tranquil. Also Cullen took responsibility for them and he is the next in line after Meredith. Who would make them Tranquil? Meredith is dead, so unless Cullen goes against his word or someone does it without asking him, I don't see how this is known as fact.

Word of Gaider.

Has anyone got a direct link to his quote? That'll come in handy for future reference and videos.

*Edit* I feel like I've asked this question before, lol.

Modifié par LolaLei, 12 novembre 2013 - 09:08 .

[Chanda]

Chiantirose1982 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How do you know that? I just rewatched that scene and there was no mention of making them Tranquil. Also Cullen took responsibility for them and he is the next in line after Meredith. Who would make them Tranquil? Meredith is dead, so unless Cullen goes against his word or someone does it without asking him, I don't see how this is known as fact.

Word of Gaider.

Ahh, thanks. You know as much as I admire his work, sometimes I think he just says things so he can stop arguing with people. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I agree. There was another thread where it was implied that Gaider had said something where Cullen automatically made the surrendering mages tranquil, and I recall responding with something like "Until Gaider struts in here and confirms that, I'm not believing it." Because it just doesn't make sense.

[Kidd]

Xilizhra wrote...

My Hawke did too, siding with mages, even though she was actively trying to avoid causing any unnecessary deaths. Personally, I think that's more the nature of the story - that there isn't a way to stay on the middle ground, and people who are primarily trying to defend themselves will still become a danger to others - than any personal failing of Cullen's.

The templars are the aggressors; their lives are forfeit without moral issue unless they surrender.

Without getting into another mage/templar debate, of which I've had a few too many, that wording was absolutely fantastic. "Their lives are forfeit without moral issue unless they surrender." Wow. That's really, really good.

I'm getting inspired to write a logical, deadpan goodie two shoes right about now. That's not an archetype you see often.

[R2s Muse]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cullen also seemed like one of the few characters in Kirkwall who was actually trying to do the right thing instead of just being out for himself; even if my Hawke didn't always agree with his perception of what the right thing was, she respected the attempt. He clearly had boundaries he wasn't willing to cross in spite of what happened to him, and that takes a lot of courage.

Apparently boundaries that didn't include genocide.

LOL Xil! TreeHuggerHannah hasn't even been in the Cullen thread a day, and you're already on the war path? For shame!

I also don't really want to break open the mage/templar debate here in our happy place. But for those wondering, HERE is at least one of the places that DG addressed tranquiling or executing everyone once a Right of Annulment has been called. I've seen a link several times recently in the main forums, to a DG quote I thought was more recent, but I can't seem to find those references.

Of course, it's likely that he's reformed somewhat. As another note, I seriously doubt you have to worry about Lambert; I'd give it a 99% chance that he's dead.

Since this was a reference I made to Lambert, I will note that I was merely too lazy to translate my words "Lambert et al." into "Lambert or whoever succeeds him and the rest of the newly independent Seekers and Templars post-Nevarran Accord." I too happen to think Lambert's dead, but the point is not about the individual but the organization, which I think we do have to worry about.

[Xilizhra]

LOL Xil! TreeHuggerHannah hasn't even been in the Cullen thread a day, and you're already on the war path? For shame!

Well, I did apologize for that.

Since this was a reference I made to Lambert, I will note that I was merely too lazy to translate my words "Lambert et al." into "Lambert or whoever succeeds him and the rest of the newly independent Seekers and Templars post-Nevarran Accord." I too happen to think Lambert's dead, but the point is not about the individual but the organization, which I think we do have to worry about.

Undoubtedly. Although I'd say it's a reasonable chance that Cullen might actually be leading this faction if it's somehow separate from the Red Templars... and, perhaps, you get to influence both him and it.

[LolaLei]

I wonder if he'll be battle/war weary? I would be if I'd found myself stuck in the middle of 2 (soon to be 3) massive events.

[Xilizhra]

LolaLei wrote...

I wonder if he'll be battle/war weary? I would be if I'd found myself stuck in the middle of 2 (soon to be 3) massive events.

Probably. If he's not a companion, that might be why.

[R2s Muse]

Xilizhra wrote...

LOL Xil! TreeHuggerHannah hasn't even been in the Cullen thread a day, and you're already on the war path? For shame!

Well, I did apologize for that.

True!!

Since this was a reference I made to Lambert, I will note that I was merely too lazy to translate my words "Lambert et al." into "Lambert or whoever succeeds him and the rest of the newly independent Seekers and Templars post-Nevarran Accord." I too happen to think Lambert's dead, but the point is not about the individual but the organization, which I think we do have to worry about.

Undoubtedly. Although I'd say it's a reasonable chance that Cullen might actually be leading this faction if it's somehow separate from the Red Templars... and, perhaps, you get to influence both him and it.

Hmm, I honestly have a hard time imagining him running the entire Templar Order. I suppose, on one hand, he might have been lauded as some kind of "hero" in Kirkwall and promoted. Maybe. But, I can't see that pushing him much higher than Knight-Commander. Beyond that, apparently you have the Knights Divine who run the day-to-day templar operations and serve directly under the Divine. Maybe he got recruited to Val Royeaux to serve in that way, say perhaps Justinia was impressed by what he did in Kirkwall.

I would be really surprised if he was suddenly recruited into the Seekers and therefore running the whole show from on high as Lord Seeker, tho. While Seekers are typically recruited from amongst the best of the best templars, I guess that seems like an awful lot of new training and hierarchy scaling in a new organization over the course of only three years.

That's all independent of the fact that I have a hard time imagining him heading the organization who's purpose is now to kill all the mages. Just doesn't seem like he would agree that that's what the Order "stands for," after everything that happened in Kirkwall. So while I could imagine several 'reluctant follower' scenarios for him, it seems like a bigger stretch for him to be leading the effort.

But, all that being said, who knows how the hell the hierarchies will really work in practice or how his actions in Kirkwall were viewed. I'm really curious about what the templars will be doing now that there are no Circles. Presumably just waging war on the mages, but that seems a little simplistic.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Hmm, I honestly have a hard time imagining him running the entire Templar Order. I suppose, on one hand, he might have been lauded as some kind of "hero" in Kirkwall and promoted. Maybe. But, I can't see that pushing him much higher than Knight-Commander. Beyond that, apparently you have the Knights Divine who run the day-to-day templar operations and serve directly under the Divine. Maybe he got recruited to Val Royeaux to serve in that way, say perhaps Justinia was impressed by what he did in Kirkwall.

Well, given that the Order would be split at least three ways in this arrangement, whatever he'd lead would be much, much smaller.

That's all independent of the fact that I have a hard time imagining him heading the organization who's purpose is now to kill all the mages. Just doesn't seem like he would agree that that's what the Order "stands for," after everything that happened in Kirkwal. So while I could imagine several 'reluctant follower' scenarios for him, it seems like a bigger stretch for him to be leading the effort.

This is admittedly true; perhaps a more likely scenario is that he'd lead the Chantry loyalist templars. If the remains of the Chantry occupy a sort of passive middle ground in this conflict, it might fit best.

[CuriousArtemis]

I don't think the Kirkwall mages were made Tranquil. Once Meredith is put out of her misery (lol), I assumed Cullen assumes command, and the Right is reversed. Pro-mage Hawke also understands the battle to be over once Meredith dies; s/he wouldn't have walked out of Kirkwall with the understanding that all the remaining mages s/he intended to defend are to be made Tranquil.

EDIT: Haven't been feeling well, but I'll be PMing/friending some of you guys to get back to you about my project

Modifié par motomotogirl, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:56 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't think the Kirkwall mages were made Tranquil. Once Meredith is put out of her misery (lol), I assumed Cullen assumes command, and the Right is reversed. Pro-mage Hawke also understands the battle to be over once Meredith dies; s/he wouldn't have walked out of Kirkwall with the understanding that all the remaining mages s/he intended to defend are to be made Tranquil.

In the mage ending, all surviving mages leave the city. Templar Hawke clearly doesn't give a ****.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:00 .

[R2s Muse]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's all independent of the fact that I have a hard time imagining him heading the organization who's purpose is now to kill all the mages. Just doesn't seem like he would agree that that's what the Order "stands for," after everything that happened in Kirkwal. So while I could imagine several 'reluctant follower' scenarios for him, it seems like a bigger stretch for him to be leading the effort.

This is admittedly true; perhaps a more likely scenario is that he'd lead the Chantry loyalist templars. If the remains of the Chantry occupy a sort of passive middle ground in this conflict, it might fit best.

This I could totally see. DA: World of Thedas did say that not all templars have left the Chantry.

Given all BW's protestations about how our Inquisitor is "AHEM!!!  NOT ALIGNED WITH THE CHANTRY!!" I wonder how closely aligned Cullen and a Chantry faction could be to the Inquisition. Then again, maybe!Leliana was also in the War Room pic with maybe!Cullen, and she's clearly Chantry aligned. *sigh* Can't wait for more info on that.

[CuriousArtemis]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think the Kirkwall mages were made Tranquil. Once Meredith is put out of her misery (lol), I assumed Cullen assumes command, and the Right is reversed. Pro-mage Hawke also understands the battle to be over once Meredith dies; s/he wouldn't have walked out of Kirkwall with the understanding that all the remaining mages s/he intended to defend are to be made Tranquil.

In the mage ending, all surviving mages leave the city. Templar Hawke clearly doesn't give a ****.

I'm talking about pro-mage Hawke. I never played pro-Templar Hawke.

[Xilizhra]

R2s Muse wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's all independent of the fact that I have a hard time imagining him heading the organization who's purpose is now to kill all the mages. Just doesn't seem like he would agree that that's what the Order "stands for," after everything that happened in Kirkwal. So while I could imagine several 'reluctant follower' scenarios for him, it seems like a bigger stretch for him to be leading the effort.

This is admittedly true; perhaps a more likely scenario is that he'd lead the Chantry loyalist templars. If the remains of the Chantry occupy a sort of passive middle ground in this conflict, it might fit best.

This I could totally see. DA: World of Thedas did say that not all templars have left the Chantry.

Given all BW's protestations about how our Inquisitor is "AHEM!!!  NOT ALIGNED WITH THE CHANTRY!!" I wonder how closely aligned Cullen and a Chantry faction could be to the Inquisition. Then again, maybe!Leliana was also in the War Room pic with maybe!Cullen, and she's clearly Chantry aligned. *sigh* Can't wait for more info on that.

We just need more damned information.

[Chiantirose1982]

R2s Muse wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cullen also seemed like one of the few characters in Kirkwall who was actually trying to do the right thing instead of just being out for himself; even if my Hawke didn't always agree with his perception of what the right thing was, she respected the attempt. He clearly had boundaries he wasn't willing to cross in spite of what happened to him, and that takes a lot of courage.

Apparently boundaries that didn't include genocide.

LOL Xil! TreeHuggerHannah hasn't even been in the Cullen thread a day, and you're already on the war path? For shame!

I also don't really want to break open the mage/templar debate here in our happy place. But for those wondering, HERE is at least one of the places that DG addressed tranquiling or executing everyone once a Right of Annulment has been called. I've seen a link several times recently in the main forums, to a DG quote I thought was more recent, but I can't seem to find those references.

I know that usually everyone gets executed or made Tranquil, my point is that Cullen knows very well that Mages prefer death to being made Tranquil. Why in the hell would he risk pissing off his superior when he was just going to lobotomize them a couple hours later anyway? Can I see the Mages being punished in some other way later on, yeah maybe something like solitary confinement for a while. He said the Circle isn't beyond saving, he knew this wasn't right, that's why he stepped up at the end, it sure took him a while but he did. So he did all this and then goes "I was just kidding, you'll be Tranquil by tomorrow morning, trololol." Really? I don't know, doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my head. 

Modifié par Chiantirose1982, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:04 .

[R2s Muse]

Chiantirose1982 wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cullen also seemed like one of the few characters in Kirkwall who was actually trying to do the right thing instead of just being out for himself; even if my Hawke didn't always agree with his perception of what the right thing was, she respected the attempt. He clearly had boundaries he wasn't willing to cross in spite of what happened to him, and that takes a lot of courage.

Apparently boundaries that didn't include genocide.

LOL Xil! TreeHuggerHannah hasn't even been in the Cullen thread a day, and you're already on the war path? For shame!

I also don't really want to break open the mage/templar debate here in our happy place. But for those wondering, HERE is at least one of the places that DG addressed tranquiling or executing everyone once a Right of Annulment has been called. I've seen a link several times recently in the main forums, to a DG quote I thought was more recent, but I can't seem to find those references.

I know that usually everyone gets executed or made Tranquil, my point is that Cullen knows very well that Mages prefer death to being made Tranquil. Why in the hell would he risk pissing off his superior when he was just going to lobotomize them a couple hours later anyway? Can I see the Mages being punished in some other way later on, yeah maybe something like solitary confinement for a while. He said the Circle isn't beyond saving, he knew this wasn't right, that's why he stepped up at the end, it sure took him a while but he did. So he did all this and then goes "I was just kidding, you'll be Tranquil by tomorrow morning, trololol." Really? I don't know, doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my head. 

Agree. Unless Cullen had no idea what the hell he was talking about or had permission to do. Heh, more fodder for the "Cullen gets court martialed" theory?

[Xilizhra]

I know that usually everyone gets executed or made Tranquil, my point is that Cullen knows very well that Mages prefer death to being made Tranquil. Why in the hell would he risk pissing off his superior when he was just going to lobotomize them a couple hours later anyway? Can I see the Mages being punished in some other way later on, yeah maybe something like solitary confinement for a while. He said the Circle isn't beyond saving, he knew this wasn't right, that's why he stepped up at the end, it sure took him a while but he did. So he did all this and then goes "I was just kidding, you'll be Tranquil by tomorrow morning, trololol." Really? I don't know, doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my head.

The templars have reinforcements coming; I doubt Cullen would maintain control of the Circle. Additionally, he himself considers Tranquility to be better than death.

[Dreamlover2012]

We are so far ahead of the game when it comes to game info, it's ridiculous. I didn't know how ahead we were until I joined a few Dragon Age groups on fb. Things/Info I've learned days/weeks/months ago is just now being discussed in my groups. Way to be on it Cullen thread!

As for the Cullen discussion- Somewhere in World of Thedas it says that there are 15 Knight-Commanders. At the end of Asunder, Lambert got all 15 Knight Commanders to agree to cut ties with the Chantry and broke the Nevarran Accord. IF Cullen was made Knight-Commander after the events in Kirkwall then it is assumed he had agreed (if reluctantly) to Lambert's idea. IF Lambert is dead (and I believe he is) then my guess is that whoever followed Lambert's ideals would continue to do so, and whoever didn't really want to break ties with the Chantry, they went back to the Chantry. My personal feeling is that Cullen went back to the Chantry. Is he leading the Chantry loyal Templars? Don't know. My guess is there are plenty of Chantry loyalists who have more seniority/experience than Cullen and so may have taken on the leader role. However, its possible Cullen is leading them since he was there during the (sorta) start of the Mage rebellion (Kirkwall) and because of that, they may be following him. I truly don't know where our favorite Templar is, honestly. I'd like to believe he is part of the Chantry loyalist (whether leading them or not) simply because Cullen's been a devout Andrastian and I don't see him breaking ties with the Chantry (until maybe later when our Inquisitor starts sniffing out the truth of things and bringing them to light)

My question is....how many Templar factions will there be? 3? We got the Chantry Loyalist, the Lambert followers, and the Red Templars? Does that sound right?

Modifié par Dreamlover2012, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:07 .

[Xilizhra]

My question is....how many Templar factions will there be? 3? We got the Chantry Loyalist, the Lambert followers, and the Red Templars? Does that sound right?

Unless Lambert's followers are the Red ones.