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[rapscallioness]

It's interesting how Keran did leave the templars--after all that--because of Merideth, etc. I remember running into him just outside the hanged man wearing basic rogue armor, not the templar stuff.

[TreeHuggerHannah]

My Hawke didn't think Anders was lying or anything, she just thought he was using reasoning that didn't make sense. It seemed to her that he had a tendency to try to gloss over situations where mages didn't come out looking good (for example, in this case turning unwilling templars into abominations) so this appeared to be more of the same - it looks better for the mage side if issues like this can just be resolved with a simple all's well that ends well. Hawke didn't see it as dishonesty but more of a blind spot.

That said... I've only played through once, so I don't know... does Keran get reinstated as a templar off screen at some point, or was that a bug? Next time I saw him he was a templar again.

[Danny Boy 7]

Scr0ll wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

I'm not sure I get this 'canon' thing people are talking about. Whatever you pick is canon for your game. If you save Crestwood, then that's canon-- just as it's canon if you save the keep instead. (And saving both makes you a big damn hero!)

People use the word Canon rather sloppy and I don't understand what people are talking about any longer. This is how I learnt it, but it might have changed since I am very old and almost senile.

Canon (just Canon) is everything that happens in the games whatever we choose. (Also known as Game Canon)
Ex of Canon: The Chantry ALWAYS blows up, Duncan always dies
Ex what's not Canon: Alistair is/is not made king, Anders dies/lives.

Head Canon is personal to the player and everything YOU choose and something you stick with as your "favorite" (so to say). It's possible to run multiple Head Canons (parallel Head Canons). For me, out of my multiple playthroughs I only choose 2 as my Head Canons to carry forward.
Ex of Head Canon: MY Warden is male, human, mage, Anora is Queen and Alistair is a Warden.

Books/comics: This is a bit tricky. All the books before the game are Canon. But Assunder is not - because if Wynne died it happened differently. Stuff happened that is Canon from Assunder: There is a Circle rebellion, the reversal of Tranquility is discovered etc. But just not with Wynne (or Shale).

The Comics are NOT Canon. But stuff in the Comics ARE, things just turned out differently. Maybe Yavana survived (Not Canon!)? But it's a sure thing that she existed and that Marric was held by the *removed spoiler - you know what*

Anyway, I guess I just wanted to say that Canon used to be a word describing everything that always carried over no matter what and now it's being turned into something personal, which is so funny because it's opposite of how I view it. Canon is loosing it's meaning.

But I am an old fart and you young ones shouldn't listen to me. Nothing to see, move along and use your new definition of Canon as you wish.

Ouch...lol well that's how I see it as well with the slight addendum that head canon was something completely divorced from the game, but that our choices were "our" canon. Our canon being our choices but not the wild wandering of our mind lol. Idk I guess the word I should be using is "continuity". I want to keep my game as close to the Books, comics, etc as they can be as I feel the books/comics are important bits, but like you said they're technically not canon. I mean I guess it's because continuity is really important to me and if somewhere down the line I find out Crestwood is saved it's gonna nag at me until I fix that in my play through lol. I'm anal that way.

It's sort of like having Leliana not die, though that's not the best example. It's kinda like ummm Udina (YEAH) and how despite me promoting Anderson he somehow becomes Councilor in the books and later the game.

[Danny Boy 7]

Mahumia wrote...

Probably it is tactically sane to abandon the wounded soldiers in order to save the masses. Yet I have a bit of a personal conscience issue with it. 'Yeah, just die, sorry. I know you could be saved, but I have other priorities now, ktnxbai.

Don't get me wrong I DO feel bad it's just I imagine that there are like 10,000 in both the village and keep. There's also, like Lola mentioned, the possibility that they won't die so I'm kinda like, immediate danger need a fixin. But in the end it's kinda like you said lol

[Danny Boy 7]

@Raps For me I think I saw Keran twice after his quest. The first was in the Gallows and then again during that Act 3 quest where one of our companions are kidnapped.

[rapscallioness]

Hey Danny!

Yeah, when I ran into him in the rogue armor it was after the kidnapped my Bro quest. Grrr.

But anyway, he was just outside the hanged man. At first I didn't recognize him w/out the Templar armor. Then I was like wait..is that..? I saw he was clickable. So I clicked him. He said he just couldn't be a part of the order anymore. Well, not as long as Meredith was in charge.

I thought, wow.

[CuriousArtemis]

I never thought of the Keran thing as a major decision. Either Keran gets to stay in the Order or not. He's apparently supporting a sister who for some reason or other refuses to work and earn her own keep lol Lazy beotch.

I've played DA2 so many times I can't remember what decisions each Hawke made. Not even the two Hawke's I love most.

[Danny Boy 7]

motomotogirl wrote...

I never thought of the Keran thing as a major decision. Either Keran gets to stay in the Order or not. He's apparently supporting a sister who for some reason or other refuses to work and earn her own keep lol Lazy beotch.

I've played DA2 so many times I can't remember what decisions each Hawke made. Not even the two Hawke's I love most.

You know I never thought about it that way MMG, I'm still trying to understand DA's view on women. Obviously there is a lot more equality there than irl, but there are a lot of medieval facets that make me wonder how encouraged it is for a women to actually be independent? I mean there are still arranged marriages and such so hmm.

[TreeHuggerHannah]

motomotogirl wrote...

I never thought of the Keran thing as a major decision. Either Keran gets to stay in the Order or not. He's apparently supporting a sister who for some reason or other refuses to work and earn her own keep lol Lazy beotch.

Yeah, it's not really major plot point, it was just a plot point my Hawke would undo if I'd let her. 


Their money issue puzzled me. As you say, there are at least two able-bodied adults in the family - sister dear should maybe get a job instead of fussing about Keran's salary.

Modifié par TreeHuggerHannah, 26 novembre 2013 - 01:57 .

[CuriousArtemis]

I hesitate to use the words "lazy writing" because I have the HIGHEST respect and admiration for the DA writing team. So I guess it's just something they missed during edits. There are a lot of women on the writing team, too, so it's not like it's "a guy thing" (and not to say that a guy wouldn't look at that situation and come to the same puzzling conclusion as we did, too).

I was thinking about this earlier and was reminded of Isabela's constant harassment of Aveline, calling her "Lady Man-Hands" and other unflattering names, obviously picking on her for her supposed lack of femininity. But what is so unfeminine about Aveline? She is a soldier... is that unusual in this world? There are many other female soldiers, the knight-commander is a woman, and Isabela herself is a fighter. So why did Isabela pick on Aveline? I think it has to do with the writers' latent feelings about women, femininity, and combat. And it just kind of sneaked into the dialogue and storyline here and there.

[R2s Muse]

motomotogirl wrote...

I hesitate to use the words "lazy writing" because I have the HIGHEST respect and admiration for the DA writing team. So I guess it's just something they missed during edits. There are a lot of women on the writing team, too, so it's not like it's "a guy thing" (and not to say that a guy wouldn't look at that situation and come to the same puzzling conclusion as we did, too).

I was thinking about this earlier and was reminded of Isabela's constant harassment of Aveline, calling her "Lady Man-Hands" and other unflattering names, obviously picking on her for her supposed lack of femininity. But what is so unfeminine about Aveline? She is a soldier... is that unusual in this world? There are many other female soldiers, the knight-commander is a woman, and Isabela herself is a fighter. So why did Isabela pick on Aveline? I think it has to do with the writers' latent feelings about women, femininity, and combat. And it just kind of sneaked into the dialogue and storyline here and there.

This is my thought, as well, that they just can't seem to keep every little piece of the story on the same, er, 'page' with respect to women. 

"Men and women in Ferelden are generally regarded as equals. Both genders are evenly represented in most organizations, noble houses and military forces."



For example, despite that assertion during character creation, Alistair points out that it's  unusual for the female Warden to be female (The Mary Sue has an interesting article on the "Hey Sweetheart" scenario that discusses this scene) and in The Stolen Throne there's almost a paragraph when Rowan is introduced about how odd she is for being a woman but also a knight.

My guess, like MMG's, is that best intentions get trumped sometimes by "CONVENIENT MEDIEVAL SETTING TROPE!".

Modifié par R2s Muse, 26 novembre 2013 - 03:36 .

[CuriousArtemis]

R2s Muse wrote...

(The Mary Sue has an interesting article on the "Hey Sweetheart" scenario that discusses this scene) and in The Stolen Throne there's almost a paragraph when Rowan is introduced about how odd she is for being a woman but also a knight.

Wow, great article!! Thanks for the link  *nerd fistbump*  And a commenter also pointed out the Redcliffe Scenario: when all the women hide with the children and all the men take up arms. Like, what the hell? I remember finding that so bizarre... sure, I was playing as a guy, but I'd played DA2 before this so I was under the impression that Thedas women were as much fighters as the menfolk.

[Jean]

I always wondered if the Grey Wardens purposely did not go out of their way to recruit many women. If a woman goes on her calling, she's more than likely not going to simply fall killing darkspawn, she's gonna become a broodmother.

Although I am confused as to whether or not the knowledge of how broodmothers are made are even known to them. You'd think after hundreds of years they'd have an idea.

[R2s Muse]

motomotogirl wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

(The Mary Sue has an interesting article on the "Hey Sweetheart" scenario that discusses this scene) and in The Stolen Throne there's almost a paragraph when Rowan is introduced about how odd she is for being a woman but also a knight.

Wow, great article!! Thanks for the link  *nerd fistbump*  And a commenter also pointed out the Redcliffe Scenario: when all the women hide with the children and all the men take up arms. Like, what the hell? I remember finding that so bizarre... sure, I was playing as a guy, but I'd played DA2 before this so I was under the impression that Thedas women were as much fighters as the menfolk.

I hadn't even noticed that one. Probably because it's so common in these fantasy settings. Ah well. BW does its best.

[R2s Muse]

Batteries wrote...

I always wondered if the Grey Wardens purposely did not go out of their way to recruit many women. If a woman goes on her calling, she's more than likely not going to simply fall killing darkspawn, she's gonna become a broodmother.

Although I am confused as to whether or not the knowledge of how broodmothers are made are even known to them. You'd think after hundreds of years they'd have an idea.

Hmm, you know, I could swear I saw an interview where DG talked about just the scenario... I wonder if I can remember where it is. About how it could be an issue for female Wardens, on one hand wanting their noble death, but also fearing a far less noble end.

With how many women are in the Grey Wardens...  I wouldn't be surprised if Alistair is just wrong.

edit: Aha!

TUK: Do Grey Wardens still do the Calling, now that they know about Broodmothers? That was a really terrifying revelation in the first game "Oh my god, any women who are down here in the Deep Roads get taken off to spawn horrible monsters!"

DG: They always knew about Broodmothers, but they didn't know where Broodmothers came from. Knowing that...wow, I hadn't really considered whether they'd stop doing the Calling. I think if anything it makes it more problematic for female Wardens to do the Calling. That may be something we could incorporate into the future. It'd be an interesting question. Let's say a female Grey Warden starts to hear her Calling and says "Well, my time has come" and the rest of the Wardens say no, you can't go. You're a woman. You don't deserve to take part in what has been long, for many centuries, held as an honorable tradition, as a way for the Grey Wardens to go out in a way where they retain...I don't know if you read The Calling, the novel. The reason they do the Calling is because there's a tipping point at which the corruption in them starts to affect them physically, so rather than become some kind of ghoul they want to die while they still have their humanity, doing what they've spent the majority of their life dedicated to, killing darkspawn, one last hurrah. To go to a woman and say "No, you can't have this honorable ending because of what might happen to you." I think that would be an interesting story. I think in the end it might be up to the individual Warden. I could definitely see a female Warden who would rather kill
herself than allow for the possibility that she could be transformed into a Broodmother.

TUK: Yeah, lots of women nodding in this room...

DG: That might be something we could bring up in the future, for sure.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 26 novembre 2013 - 04:11 .

[Jean]

 

Interesting that until the Warden, they did not know where broodmothers came from. That just makes me feel awful for the women that did go on their calling and subsequently, well... 

Thank you for the information, I have been wondering this. 

[R2s Muse]

Batteries wrote...

 

Interesting that until the Warden, they did not know where broodmothers came from. That just makes me feel awful for the women that did go on their calling and subsequently, well... 

Thank you for the information, I have been wondering this. 

My pleasure! Yeah... that whole scenario is just shudderworthy. The thing I find most interesting is that DG says he hadn't really considered that...

[Danny Boy 7]

motomotogirl wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

(The Mary Sue has an interesting article on the "Hey Sweetheart" scenario that discusses this scene) and in The Stolen Throne there's almost a paragraph when Rowan is introduced about how odd she is for being a woman but also a knight.

Wow, great article!! Thanks for the link  *nerd fistbump*  And a commenter also pointed out the Redcliffe Scenario: when all the women hide with the children and all the men take up arms. Like, what the hell? I remember finding that so bizarre... sure, I was playing as a guy, but I'd played DA2 before this so I was under the impression that Thedas women were as much fighters as the menfolk.

Which is REALLY strange when you come from either the Dalish or Human Noble origin where you have two matriarchal characters who kick ass (almost wrote kiss there lol). I like to think that any female knight/warriors etc in Redcliffe were there but we just didn't see them all, but I know that's just me trying to defend the devs for a minor oversight or two. I have to wonder if some of these pop up in Origins more to show players, "Hey look, reactivity!!!", and then disappear because it's just impossible for everyone to think about the message every line of dialogue is going to convey.  Not that it shouldn't be thought about/attempted, idk I just don't know how far we as fans should be willing to go in our scrutiny.

I wonder however, if women in Dragon Age simply choose not to adventure as often. Say 49% rather than 50% of the time. Not that they're incapable or uncommon, but because in world societal norms allow for them to have more maneuverability in their respective cultures? No one flips because Isabela is a pirate captain or when Aveline is a guard captain (well because she's Ferelden, but beyond that none that I recall) nobody is shocked that Leliana is, ummm, experienced? I mean the primary religion of Thedas has a Warrior Prophet who is a woman and most of the remaining religions (besides Tevinter's Chantry) have women in high tier roles.

I kinda loved that article.

[Danny Boy 7]

R2s Muse wrote...

Batteries wrote...

 

Interesting that until the Warden, they did not know where broodmothers came from. That just makes me feel awful for the women that did go on their calling and subsequently, well... 

Thank you for the information, I have been wondering this. 

My pleasure! Yeah... that whole scenario is just shudderworthy. The thing I find most interesting is that DG says he hadn't really considered that...

I imagine it's because the writers don't really think that far ahead, that or the implications of some of these moments aren't what they'd expect. It always interests me to see people's crazy interpretations. I mean we're prime examples of seeing something that is there but is easy to miss if your not watching.

[R2s Muse]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Batteries wrote...

 

Interesting that until the Warden, they did not know where broodmothers came from. That just makes me feel awful for the women that did go on their calling and subsequently, well... 

Thank you for the information, I have been wondering this. 

My pleasure! Yeah... that whole scenario is just shudderworthy. The thing I find most interesting is that DG says he hadn't really considered that...

I imagine it's because the writers don't really think that far ahead, that or the implications of some of these moments aren't what they'd expect. It always interests me to see people's crazy interpretations. I mean we're prime examples of seeing something that is there but is easy to miss if your not watching.

...or perhaps it's not crazy but a perfect example of what DG always emphasizes, the importance of diversity in the writing teams...

[HurricaneGinger]

I figured it had to do with their class, maybe, but Keran and his sister don't seem to be nobles. She very well may be a woman who doesn't want to work, or is unable to for one reason or the other. Or maybe she is working, but is getting too little to do any good. Which comes back to "why not get another job?" *cough*storyofmylife*cough*

Nobles and royals, equal in power, seem to marry out of obligation.

And when it comes to the women in Redcliff...none of them seemed to know how to fight. I am SURE no one would mind if a woman picked up a sword and started fighting for Arl Eamon, just these women were content with working the docks or shops, what have you. Just because one village doesn't follow society, doesn't mean they're breaking the rules.

When it comes to Isabela and Aveline: I think Isabela enjoys being feminine and showing off, and she thinks it's odd that Aveline isn't showing off her goods. However, I also think Izzy pokes and prods Aveline to get a rise out of her as well as teach her to stick up for herself. Aveline seems very secure with herself, but is very awkward around men (I assume, because of her reaction to liking Donnic). She doesn't know how to be feminine because she was raised with a sword in her hand. Isabela and Aveline are two very different people with very different views on femininity. Isabela shows off, and Aveline just prefers to cover up.

Hah...that actually reminds me of a friend of mine. She's very Isabela when it comes to being confident with her femininity, while I am very tomboy like Aveline. I don't know how to flirt, and she teases me but gives me tips all the time. We actually tease each other the very same way these two characters do...huh! Never made that connection before. She'll get a kick out of it. XD

[Danny Boy 7]

R2s Muse wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Batteries wrote...

 

Interesting that until the Warden, they did not know where broodmothers came from. That just makes me feel awful for the women that did go on their calling and subsequently, well... 

Thank you for the information, I have been wondering this. 

My pleasure! Yeah... that whole scenario is just shudderworthy. The thing I find most interesting is that DG says he hadn't really considered that...

I imagine it's because the writers don't really think that far ahead, that or the implications of some of these moments aren't what they'd expect. It always interests me to see people's crazy interpretations. I mean we're prime examples of seeing something that is there but is easy to miss if your not watching.

...or perhaps it's not crazy but a perfect example of what DG always emphasizes, the importance of diversity in the writing teams...

Well I mean crazy as in unique/varied, rather than out there or unlikely.

[CuriousArtemis]

R2s Muse wrote...

...or perhaps it's not crazy but a perfect example of what DG always emphasizes, the importance of diversity in the writing teams...

Yes, and hindsight is always 20/20  It's easy for fans to criticize a writer for something after it's been written! When I think how often I edit the stuff I write... I can't imagine putting something out there and being "DONE" with it, then having to sit back and watch as all my mistakes are pointed out to me.

[Mahumia]

TreeHuggerHannah wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

I never thought of the Keran thing as a major decision. Either Keran gets to stay in the Order or not. He's apparently supporting a sister who for some reason or other refuses to work and earn her own keep lol Lazy beotch.

Yeah, it's not really major plot point, it was just a plot point my Hawke would undo if I'd let her. 


Their money issue puzzled me. As you say, there are at least two able-bodied adults in the family - sister dear should maybe get a job instead of fussing about Keran's salary.

It never struck me as laziness from her side. We just never get to know the story behind it, but I figured that she might be caring after family, perhaps running some shop together, and that it is not enough for feeding a whole family.

[LolaLei]

Danny: Am I understanding this correctly? You won't be saving the village in Crestwood because they didn't do so in the demo? And as such you consider that to be BioWare's "canon"?

You realise that the reason they saved the keep instead of the village was because they wanted to talk about/show us the Keep customisation, right? If they'd saved the village instead then they wouldn't have been able to show us the Keep customisation without ruining the flow of the demo itself, since saving the Keep allowed them to also show us the symbols on the walls of the cave, the Behemoth and the burning of the boats as a counter attack.

So, it doesn't matter whether you choose to save the village or not. Saving the Keep isn't considered as BioWare's canon in that given situation. Also, is you Warden a female Dalish Elf that sacrificed herself? Cos that's the "canon" they use for the comics, apparently.

Modifié par LolaLei, 26 novembre 2013 - 07:53 .