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[LolaLei]

But his ideas of protection had indeed been warped, ever since he was tortured by blood mages in DA:O. His actions weren't exactly that of a sane man, it took a long time for him to pull his finger out of his arse, but at least he got there in the end lol.

[brushyourteeth]

LolaLei wrote...

Personally, I feel that his flaws (like taking his time to disobey Meredith directly etc) is what makes him such an good character. I mean, love him or hate him he has enough personal history and made so many bad decisions that people have a big reaction to him (be it good or bad), and to me that makes him a worthy potential companion for DA3. People want to get to know him/romance him or confront him/kill him, and we won't be able to do any of that unless he's a companion.

No two ways about it, he's a well written character.

Good point! The fact that he's such a polarizing figure makes him even more of a must-have for DAIII.

He'll prove either the smooshy "Cullen is perfection!" fans completely wrong or embarass the "Thrall of the Chantry, must die!" crowd with a surprising amount of decency. Nobody does the right thing all the time - the truth is that each decision matters, for good or ill, and neither side is 100% right or wrong. My guess is that most of the Cullen hate comes from a distaste for the Chantry (and sometimes real-life religion - some fans don't seem to make any distinction between fantasy and reality), so it'll be interesting to see a Cullen whose relationship with the Chantry has changed significantly, and whether or not that makes a difference when it comes to his fan reception.

[Xilizhra]

LolaLei wrote...

Personally, I feel that his flaws (like taking his time to disobey Meredith directly etc) is what makes him such an good character. I mean, love him or hate him he has enough personal history and made so many bad decisions that people have a big reaction to him (be it good or bad), and to me that makes him a worthy potential companion for DA3. People want to get to know him/romance him or confront him/kill him, and we won't be able to do any of that unless he's a companion.

No two ways about it, he's a well written character.

I can concede his being well-written, though I don't believe Gaider is correct in what he said about Cullen being moderate. Unless this changes in DA3.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Personally, I feel that his flaws (like taking his time to disobey Meredith directly etc) is what makes him such an good character. I mean, love him or hate him he has enough personal history and made so many bad decisions that people have a big reaction to him (be it good or bad), and to me that makes him a worthy potential companion for DA3. People want to get to know him/romance him or confront him/kill him, and we won't be able to do any of that unless he's a companion.

No two ways about it, he's a well written character.

I can concede his being well-written, though I don't believe Gaider is correct in what he said about Cullen being moderate. Unless this changes in DA3.

I think the events of "The Last Straw" are a sort of turning point in his life the same way that Uldred's little abomination party were. He spends most of DA2 having deeper and deeper doubts about Meredith's definition of Templar duty and what his role should actually be. So we'll see. I wouldn't be surprised to see him follow Keran out of the order completely. Justinia would probably approve of Cullen's actions, but he'll be in big trouble with some other forces near the top. If he's smart he's made a run for it. I find it more likely that he turned himself in to the Seekers and is rotting in some dungeon right now.

[LolaLei]

Xilizhra wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Personally, I feel that his flaws (like taking his time to disobey Meredith directly etc) is what makes him such an good character. I mean, love him or hate him he has enough personal history and made so many bad decisions that people have a big reaction to him (be it good or bad), and to me that makes him a worthy potential companion for DA3. People want to get to know him/romance him or confront him/kill him, and we won't be able to do any of that unless he's a companion.

No two ways about it, he's a well written character.

I can concede his being well-written, though I don't believe Gaider is correct in what he said about Cullen being moderate. Unless this changes in DA3.

Hard to tell with Gaider, he retcons things left, right and centre lol. Maybe he decided to change Cullen's fate incase they decided to use him in future DA instalments or something. 

[TEWR]

LolaLei wrote...

I'm curious as to why you keep returning to this thread then, you're aware that it's a Cullen fan thread right? Or do you just come here to enjoy our sparkling conversation and illuminating personalities?

It's a Cullen discussion thread. Discussions are not limited to those who are fans of a character.

LolaLei wrote...

No two ways about it, he's a well written character.

I'd say conceptually he is, but in terms of DAII he wasn't given his due -- like many other aspects.

He has a lot of potential though. And he's only a moderate amongst Kirkwall's Templars, which isn't saying much. To call him a moderate on the whole as apparently Gaider did would be wrong IMO.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 juillet 2012 - 05:37 .

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

No two ways about it, he's a well written character.

I'd say conceptually he is, but in terms of DAII he wasn't given his due -- like many other aspects.

He has a lot of potential though. And he's only a moderate amongst Kirkwall's Templars, which isn't saying much. To call him a moderate on the whole as apparently Gaider did would be wrong IMO.

I'd agree, but only insomuch as by the end of the game he's no longer moderate by anyone's standards -- he's blatantly pro-mage. Maybe not for their freedom, but definitely for their ethical treatment. Moderates don't put their life at risk and choose to stand and fight their friends and comrades for what they believe is right. A moderate would hold his tongue and think "I say! that's rather an extreme response. I must make a note to bring this up at the next Templar board meeting." 

Again, not saying the guy's perfect, but give him his due - that choice was gutsy. He had at least one moment of nobility (hopefully the first of many).

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 31 juillet 2012 - 05:43 .

[LolaLei]

Redux: Obviously, although it becomes awfully tiresome when we're going around in circles repeating ourselves. And there's no need to be condescending dear.

And I agree he wasn't given his due, like many of the others characters in DA2.

Modifié par LolaLei, 31 juillet 2012 - 05:57 .

[TEWR]

brushyourteeth wrote...

While it's true that Cullen should have stepped in sooner, it's worth noting that he did eventually stand up to Meredith - an act that did save lives and throw his ass into the fire. It was late in coming, but it took guts, and there was nothing about the act that served him or made his life easier.

The only lives it saved were Templar lives. At this point, the Annulment has either been finished completely -- with Mages having died or the lucky having escaped from the Templars -- or is still going on, but has Hawke standing in the way.

Cullen's intervention may have saved those Mages on a pro-Mage route if any still remain in the Gallows, but anyone in Thedas could easily see that the Annulment should never have been called for in the first place, nor carried out. It's not a moral dilemma there. It's quite simple. Don't follow the person willing to punish the innocent in order to appease a mob that might form, when basic diplomatic skills dictate that you don't cater to a mob anyway.

Orsino was even willing to work with the Templars to root out blood mages -- and based on what we know of him, he may have given himself up to protect his charges -- so long as they weren't killed for an act they had nothing to do with. Meredith wouldn't have it, and Cullen remained silent on that matter.

What makes Cullen so interesting is that he WAS a nutjob who couldn't wait to kill mages. Haven't you ever had a past you're ashamed of or done things other people would consider distasteful? I have. We can be opposed to punishing mages before they've even committed a crime ONLY if we also judge others (Chantry folk included) on the decisions they make, not HAVE made or MIGHT make.

As of the end of DAII, Cullen is a BA, anti-oppression-for-mages, do-what-it-takes-even-if-my-life-is-destroyed-for-it kind of guy. No hate, please - there's no call for it. And we have no idea where his actions will take him in The Next Thing.

Hate is also the mark of a good character. It's apathy you want to avoid when writing a character.

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

While it's true that Cullen should have stepped in sooner, it's worth noting that he did eventually stand up to Meredith - an act that did save lives and throw his ass into the fire. It was late in coming, but it took guts, and there was nothing about the act that served him or made his life easier.

The only lives it saved were Templar lives. At this point, the Annulment has either been finished completely -- with Mages having died or the lucky having escaped from the Templars -- or is still going on, but has Hawke standing in the way.

Cullen's intervention may have saved those Mages on a pro-Mage route if any still remain in the Gallows, but anyone in Thedas could easily see that the Annulment should never have been called for in the first place, nor carried out. It's not a moral dilemma there. It's quite simple. Don't follow the person willing to punish the innocent in order to appease a mob that might form, when basic diplomatic skills dictate that you don't cater to a mob anyway.

Orsino was even willing to work with the Templars to root out blood mages -- and based on what we know of him, he may have given himself up to protect his charges -- so long as they weren't killed for an act they had nothing to do with. Meredith wouldn't have it, and Cullen remained silent on that matter.

What makes Cullen so interesting is that he WAS a nutjob who couldn't wait to kill mages. Haven't you ever had a past you're ashamed of or done things other people would consider distasteful? I have. We can be opposed to punishing mages before they've even committed a crime ONLY if we also judge others (Chantry folk included) on the decisions they make, not HAVE made or MIGHT make.

As of the end of DAII, Cullen is a BA, anti-oppression-for-mages, do-what-it-takes-even-if-my-life-is-destroyed-for-it kind of guy. No hate, please - there's no call for it. And we have no idea where his actions will take him in The Next Thing.

Hate is also the mark of a good character. It's apathy you want to avoid when writing a character.

I agree with all this.

[TEWR]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'd agree, but only insomuch as by the end of the game he's no longer moderate by anyone's standards -- he's blatantly pro-mage.

Not really. I'd call him more pro-get-crazy-people-out-of-the-Order. By the end of the game, he's still acting anti-mage. Even his comments on the pro-Templar route don't do much to change that. He's still going through with something that is wholly unnecessary. 

Maybe not for their freedom, but definitely for their ethical treatment.

That doesn't make him pro-mage. That makes him human.

Or it would, if he demonstrated more of a persona that showcased this aspect. Again, it goes back to him having not enough time in DAII like many other things. 

Moderates don't put their life at risk and choose to stand and fight their friends and comrades for what they believe is right. A moderate would hold his tongue and think "I say! that's rather an extreme response. I must make a note to bring this up at the next Templar board meeting." 

But he wasn't fighting his friends and comrades. He was relieving his superior officer of her authority as she had demonstrated she was now unfit for the job -- although she proved that during the Anders moment, but I digress. And then she proved his point.

Again, not saying the guy's perfect, but give him his due - that choice was gutsy. He had at least one moment of nobility (hopefully the first of many).

It's hard to give him props for something like that when so much unnecessary death and destruction preceded it and I can squarely lay the blame for that at the feet of the Templars and the Chantry, and he not only did very little to change it but he aided in its being carried out.

If he ends up honestly -- and possibly tearfully -- regretting his part in that Annulment, then I can give him some props. Because then he'll recognize that he shouldn't have even considered it as being necessary and want to make it right, without abandoning the reasons why he joined the Order in the first place.

LolaLei wrote...

Obviously, although it becomes awfully tiresome when we're going around in circles repeating ourselves.

All discussions on the forums end up repeating themselves. It's the Circle of Life

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But he wasn't fighting his friends and comrades. He was relieving his superior officer of her authority as she had demonstrated she was now unfit for the job -- although she proved that during the Anders moment, but I digress. And then she proved his point.

It's true that he didn't end up fighting anyone besides Meredith, but he had no way of knowing that's how it would pan out. He ordered her to stand down knowing full well the others could very well follow her orders instead of his and finish him.

It's hard to give him props for something like that when so much unnecessary death and destruction preceded it and I can squarely lay the blame for that at the feet of the Templars and the Chantry, and he not only did very little to change it but he aided in its being carried out.

If he ends up honestly -- and possibly tearfully -- regretting his part in that Annulment, then I can give him some props. Because then he'll recognize that he shouldn't have even considered it as being necessary and want to make it right, without abandoning the reasons why he joined the Order in the first place.

I agree that a Cullen who hasn't completely turned his back on what the Order stands for is preferable. Characters who ride the pendulum into the opposite extreme are boring.

And on that note, I bid you goodnight all.

[TEWR]

brushyourteeth wrote...

It's true that he didn't end up fighting anyone besides Meredith, but he had no way of knowing that's how it would pan out. He ordered her to stand down knowing full well the others could very well follow her orders instead of his and finish him.

I think he did. IIRC, in military structure if a superior officer demonstrates that they are unfit to command then their immediate lesser -- for lack of a better word, because I can't think of it -- has the ability to revoke any authority the person had over the group and the lesser takes command of the group.

They may have to face a debriefing on the situation later on though. I honestly don't know, but I'm fairly certain they can relieve a superior of command if they're unfit for the role anymore.

At this point, Meredith wanted to kill the (possibly Pro-Templar) Champion after having previously wanted to arrest him.

Ignoring how it makes no sense for the Templars to want to arrest the Champion that supported them -- unless he/she was a Mage, in which case it makes some sense, but not a whole lot as I can immediately deem it idiotic -- this act of wanting to kill someone showed that she was so far gone she should be relieved of duty.

Add into that how Hawke can inform the Templars that the lyrium she has poisoned Bartrand's mind, and it's doubly made apparent that she's cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

So I think he had enough information to say that he would be safe in doing such a thing, especially if the Templar Order allows such a thing -- which judging by Cullen's act, it does. If Meredith had the legal authority to murder people for a crime they had nothing to do with and the Templars followed her, I doubt the Templars would object to Cullen relieving her of her authority when she's unfit for the role and has been for some time. For a long time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:18 .

[LolaLei]

Yeah, so anyway.

R2: I was thinking about more character swaps, have you swapped Aveline for Cullen yet? I was thinking maybe the facial expressions during the Aveline/Donnic hook up quest might have some real gems in it.

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

Yeah, so anyway.

R2: I was thinking about more character swaps, have you swapped Aveline for Cullen yet? I was thinking maybe the facial expressions during the Aveline/Donnic hook up quest might have some real gems in it.

Sort of. I've swapped Donnic for Cullen when Aveline rescues him (horrible, BTW) but not the Wounded Coast part of the quests. Probably not something I'll have much time for in the near future, as RL has gotten a bit stressful.

I also haven't done any swaps with the final goodbyes at the Gallows. A few good kisses there.

[R2s Muse]

You guys must check this out, tho. vieralynn's been posting some really cool flowcharts of Cullen's DA:O dialogue. But the best is THIS. LOL A must listen.

[meanieweenie]

R2s Muse wrote...

You guys must check this out, tho. vieralynn's been posting some really cool flowcharts of Cullen's DA:O dialogue. But the best is THIS. LOL A must listen.

That is fantastic!  I haven't seen vieralynn on here in a while. Where's she been? Maybe she's here when I'm not...


And what a crazy discussion you guys had last night!!! Sorry I missed it.

[LolaLei]

Omg, I wish Cullen had actually said that in game. Bless him, I love how young and naive he sounds. See, now I'm convinced that he'd make a fantastic companion, he's bound to still ask weird questions like that since he still lacks experience outside of the Templar Order.

If he is a companion/LI you can see already that he's gonna speak before he thinks ALOT. Gah, I'm gonna be sooooo disappointed if he isn't.

[brushyourteeth]

That moment was totally Anders 1.0 for me! I wonder if that's kinda where they got the inspiration for his character from? Hmm...

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

You guys must check this out, tho. vieralynn's been posting some really cool flowcharts of Cullen's DA:O dialogue. But the best is THIS. LOL A must listen.

That is fantastic!  I haven't seen vieralynn on here in a while. Where's she been? Maybe she's here when I'm not...


And what a crazy discussion you guys had last night!!! Sorry I missed it.

LOL careful what you wish for...

[R2s Muse]

brushyourteeth wrote...

That moment was totally Anders 1.0 for me! I wonder if that's kinda where they got the inspiration for his character from? Hmm...

I know, he totally sounds like Anders to me there, as well. Honestly... just hearing him say the word "virgin" puts me in stitches.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

That moment was totally Anders 1.0 for me! I wonder if that's kinda where they got the inspiration for his character from? Hmm...

I know, he totally sounds like Anders to me there, as well. Honestly... just hearing him say the word "virgin" puts me in stitches.

I thought it was Anders at first, he sounds really northern accent wise as well. It's very sweet... and now we know what kind of things he's thinking about whilst hanging around the Gallows courtyard all day LOL!

[brushyourteeth]

R2s Muse wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

That moment was totally Anders 1.0 for me! I wonder if that's kinda where they got the inspiration for his character from? Hmm...

I know, he totally sounds like Anders to me there, as well. Honestly... just hearing him say the word "virgin" puts me in stitches.

I'm pretty sure that she and Maferath had already.... I mean.... you know what I mean!

Virgins aren't that special anyway. 

[LolaLei]

brushyourteeth wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

That moment was totally Anders 1.0 for me! I wonder if that's kinda where they got the inspiration for his character from? Hmm...

I know, he totally sounds like Anders to me there, as well. Honestly... just hearing him say the word "virgin" puts me in stitches.

I'm pretty sure that she and Maferath had already.... I mean.... you know what I mean!

Virgins aren't that special anyway. 

I love that he's pretty much asking if Andraste was shagging the Maker... It reminds me of the sort of thing naughty school boys talk about whilst thumbing through an ancient porno magazine they found under their dads bed lol.

[R2s Muse]

Tee hee, yeah, exactly, it's not like the Maker was her first marriage after all. Jeesh, maybe he skipped the birds and the bees day at the Chantry.