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[Xilizhra]

I don't think the Chantry is at all necessary to help Thedas, really. It could be useful in some circumstances, but there are so many better possibilities out there...

[R2s Muse]

brushyourteeth wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

I can't believe I'm going to say this sentence, but to be fair to Lambert, he does think that Justinia was just a wrong choice, and not the voice of god. He believes that he is doing the Maker's good works in thwarting the mage threat. And, unfortunately, all fifteen knight-commanders signed off on Lambert's actions... whether they had reservations or not, so my feeling is that the majority of the Order is following to the beat of his drum and are now defected. I'll bet there are few of the rank and file that stay true to the Chantry, but as an organization, they're split.

While you definitely have a point there, if we're going to be fair to Lambert we ought to be fair to villains in general and admit that they almost always have reasons to believe that they're doing what's best. Very few of them go around moustache-twirling and being evil for evil's sake. That's the problem. That's what makes a great villain. That's what made Loghain so fantastic (and a much better villain than Howe) - you could actually relate to where he was coming from, and wonder how such a great man could turn so... wrong.

Lambert represents the worst the Chantry has to offer. Seriously. I'm actually quite the Chantry sympathizer, and it's because I can see where the philosophy, when implemented correctly, really could make Thedas better. If all Chantry folk were Lambert copies I'd be praying for another (more tightly controlled) bomb explosion to take place in Val Royeaux.

Of course since David Gaider is David Gaider, he had to go and make Lambert's assumptions about Cole be completely correct (just to keep things in the gray). Dammit. 

OH, I totally agree with you!! Which was why it was difficult to write that sentence. I think Lambert is a zealot and a looney , and personally feel that he's misinterpreting Andraste. And I agree, way too black hat and mustache twirling, and even if he was sorta right about Cole, he was still a bad bad man. I was just pointing out that in his letter, he really thinks he has the Maker and Andraste and all them on his side.

[LolaLei]

I'm hoping they start giving the Templars red lyrium, ya know, just for dramas sake... Hopefully Cullen won't take any though, although it would be interesting lol.

[R2s Muse]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think the Chantry is at all necessary to help Thedas, really. It could be useful in some circumstances, but there are so many better possibilities out there...

Agree. I also think Thedas is stuck with it, theologically, and at it's core, it's not inherently bad. Even the whole 'magic is meant to serve man' thing really is talking about maleficars, not all mages. I think the problem's in the implementation of Andraste's words. Hopefully they'll be able to rethink the structural aspects of how to treat mages. Like, somehow reintegrate them into society, but help them control their magic.

[meanieweenie]

I'm sorry.... you guys are cracking me up with the mustache twirling:

http://www.disneyvil...et/BowlerHatGuy

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

I'm sorry.... you guys are cracking me up with the mustache twirling:

http://www.disneyvil...et/BowlerHatGuy

LOL My new image of Lambert!

[LolaLei]

meanieweenie wrote...

I'm sorry.... you guys are cracking me up with the mustache twirling:

http://www.disneyvil...et/BowlerHatGuy

I hope Lambert wears a bowler hat!

[meanieweenie]

Lola - what will the red lyrium do exactly? Is it more potent or is it something completely different in it's own right?

R2 - This seems to be a very current, yet historically redundant topic for them to be tackling over at BW. People having thier own interpretation of what they feel like thier particular diety is saying or meaning. It's started many a great war. I wonder how they'll settle this one, since it's never going to be solved in the real world.

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

I'm hoping they start giving the Templars red lyrium, ya know, just for dramas sake... Hopefully Cullen won't take any though, although it would be interesting lol.

Gosh, I just wish we'd find out what the heck the red lyrium is... and why does it sing??  So that would be an interesting way to explore it. The new Templar Order creates supersoldiers with red lyrium in order to beat back the mage threat. dun dun... dun! With only a few left who still support the Chantry, who will stop them? dun dun dun... Dragon Age 3: Banter Harder...

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

R2 - This seems to be a very current, yet historically redundant topic for them to be tackling over at BW. People having thier own interpretation of what they feel like thier particular diety is saying or meaning. It's started many a great war. I wonder how they'll settle this one, since it's never going to be solved in the real world.

Hmm, interesting point. I suppose in a fantasy world,  you could actually have Andraste show up and set them right... But I read somewhere that DG wouldn't do something like that, since that then obviates the need for faith in the first place. In a fake world, tho, you could come upon some relic/archive/evidence that "tells" you something definitively and changes the face of Thedas. Like... heh, wait for it... Andraste was a mage!!! dun dun dun... (still my fave pet theory!).

[LolaLei]

Well, I figured that since most of the Templars have gone rogue by breaking away from the Chantry they're gonna have their lyrium supply cut off, so they'd have to find other sources in order to acquire it. That's where the lyrium smugglers come in, no doubt they'll be poking around that old thaig where Hawke 'n' co found the idol, especially after sh!t hit the fan in Kirkwall because no one will be guarding the entrance. So my theory is that someone is bound to stumble across the red lyrium growing in there and start mining it and selling it on, eventually the Templar rebellion will end up testing the stuff out and discover that it enhances their powers better than regular lyrium because it's more potent, of course it's also gonna be more addictive, causing side effects like paranoia, delirium etc. Perhaps the person in charge of the Templars (Lambert or whoever) will realise that it also makes them more obedient because their minds are weakened enough to plant ideas in their heads. 

Of course, the red lyrium dust is taken in smaller quantities in comparison to being exposed to the red lyrium idol, so it would take a little while for the full effects of madness to kick in, but by the time our protagonist comes onto the scene things should have started to kick in nicely.

Modifié par LolaLei, 04 août 2012 - 01:20 .

[meanieweenie]

Well, I'm just looking up red lyrium in the wiki... says : "An ancient form of lyrium, the "Primeval" lyrium is even more dangerous than its normal counterpart. It is known to give its user supernatural abilities at the cost of their sanity."

Can you imagine a bunch of bat sh!t crazy Templars running amok? With supernatural powers no less! lol

[LolaLei]

meanieweenie wrote...

Well, I'm just looking up red lyrium in the wiki... says : "An ancient form of lyrium, the "Primeval" lyrium is even more dangerous than its normal counterpart. It is known to give its user supernatural abilities at the cost of their sanity."

Can you imagine a bunch of bat sh!t crazy Templars running amok? With supernatural powers no less! lol

Even more reason to put enough stress on the fade to tear it completely open, what with mages on the loose casting spells in retaliation and blood magic/rituals occurring by some mages with a dodgy agenda.

[meanieweenie]

So what happens if you're already crazy and you snort some red lyrium? Do you become sane? I want some red lyrium. I will be the test monkey.

[LolaLei]

Your head explodes?

[brushyourteeth]

meanieweenie wrote...

R2 - This seems to be a very current, yet historically redundant topic for them to be tackling over at BW. People having thier own interpretation of what they feel like thier particular diety is saying or meaning. It's started many a great war. I wonder how they'll settle this one, since it's never going to be solved in the real world.

Bear in mind too that not everyone that backs a religion actually, honest-to-goodness adheres to it. A lot of people jump behind a religious platform as a smokescreen for their true motives because it's a convenient excuse/source of superficial support.

Using Christianity as an example (since it's what I'm most familiar with) - people who have a problem with homosexuality will often jump on the Jesus bandwagon but exhibit none of the selflessness, love or self-examination required in the Bible's teachings, but harp on the LGBT community till the cows come home. And in hanging around honest-to-goodness Christians long enough you can pretty easily see that they don't actually think or talk about homosexuality often at all, and especially not with that kind of malice. In my experience, anyway.

Lolalei wrote...

Even more reason to put enough stress on the fade to tear it completely open, what with mages on the loose casting spells in retaliation and blood magic/rituals occurring by some mages with a dodgy agenda.

Which will lead to even more stringent crackdowns on mages, which will lead to even more demon summoning, mage stress, and fade-tearing WAAAAAH!!!! 

*twirls moustache* 

[brushyourteeth]

meanieweenie wrote...

So what happens if you're already crazy and you snort some red lyrium? Do you become sane? I want some red lyrium. I will be the test monkey.

Slip some in your neighbor's mimosas. 

[meanieweenie]

brushyourteeth wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

R2 - This seems to be a very current, yet historically redundant topic for them to be tackling over at BW. People having thier own interpretation of what they feel like thier particular diety is saying or meaning. It's started many a great war. I wonder how they'll settle this one, since it's never going to be solved in the real world.

Bear in mind too that not everyone that backs a religion actually, honest-to-goodness adheres to it. A lot of people jump behind a religious platform as a smokescreen for their true motives because it's a convenient excuse/source of superficial support.

Using Christianity as an example (since it's what I'm most familiar with) - people who have a problem with homosexuality will often jump on the Jesus bandwagon but exhibit none of the selflessness, love or self-examination required in the Bible's teachings, but harp on the LGBT community till the cows come home. And in hanging around honest-to-goodness Christians long enough you can pretty easily see that they don't actually think or talk about homosexuality often at all, and especially not with that kind of malice. In my experience, anyway.

Precisely my point! (Get out of my head!) I've had to unfriend a few people on FB over this, unfortunately. I have issues with bigots. lol

[brushyourteeth]

meanieweenie wrote...

Precisely my point! (Get out of my head!) I've had to unfriend a few people on FB over this, unfortunately. I have issues with bigots. lol

As you should, MW - as you should. 
But taking that "unfriending" step was probably very brave and painful, so *hugs*!
And thanks for taking a positive view on that post - I know talking about RL religions can cause inflammatory situations, so seriously -- I'm insanely glad we were on the same wavelength!

The thing about the Chantry is that it isn't a real-life exact copy of one of our religions. But it is just like real-life religion in that it has your kooks, your villains, your passive bystanders, and then you have those who actually embody what's beautiful about it (who unfortunately get overlooked because the other groups are more numerous/memorable).

So how do we separate the Justinia's from the Lambert's? The Sebastian's from the Alrik's? The Keran's from the Varnell's? I hope the answer is that we'll see some of those lines un-blurry themselves in the next thing and people's true colors will really start to bleed through. 

[LolaLei]

Agreed. I'm hoping there won't be so many pantomime villains this time round.

[brushyourteeth]

It makes me wonder what kind of experience we would have had with Meredith without the idol. Honestly. She was obviously pretty flawed in her leadership *cough*Alrik*cough* but if you choose to take your investigation missions from her.... I dunno. I got the distinct impression that she actually cared about the mages quite deeply. Like a parent who sucks at parenting, but still has some affection for the kid.

... which made Cullen the awkward big brother sitting at the breakfast table, trying to eat his cereal loudly enough that he could pretend an argument wasn't going on in the kitchen. 

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 04 août 2012 - 02:19 .

[LolaLei]

brushyourteeth wrote...

It makes me wonder what kind of experience we would have had with Meredith without the idol. Honestly. She was obviously pretty flawed in her leadership *cough*Alrik*cough* but if you choose to take your investigation missions from her.... I dunno. I got the distinct impression that she actually cared about the mages quite deeply. Like a parent who sucks at parenting, but still has some affection for the kid.

... which made Cullen the awkward big brother sitting at the breakfast table, trying to eat his cereal loudly enough that he could pretend an argument wasn't going on in the kitchen. 

She struck me as a bit of a control freak, particularly because she was pretty much running Kirkwall, when you first arrive one of the City Guards says that they take orders from Meredith and that even the Viscount wouldn't have the balls not to take orders from her, so she was clearly a bit power hungry. I guess she was a bit like The Illusive Man, she was trying to take on too much and done a lot of unsavoury things "for the greater good" but gradually went a bit power mad that was amplified by the red lyrium idol. She was definitely a ruthless dictator though.

[R2s Muse]

brushyourteeth wrote...

It makes me wonder what kind of experience we would have had with Meredith without the idol. Honestly. She was obviously pretty flawed in her leadership *cough*Alrik*cough* but if you choose to take your investigation missions from her.... I dunno. I got the distinct impression that she actually cared about the mages quite deeply. Like a parent who sucks at parenting, but still has some affection for the kid.

... which made Cullen the awkward big brother sitting at the breakfast table, trying to eat his cereal loudly enough that he could pretend an argument wasn't going on in the kitchen. 

I was also kinda disappointed at the "lyrium did it" reason for her behavior. It would have been much more interesting to me if we'd had to deal with her reasons being her reasons. Of course, her insanity made it much easier to have a clear side of "right" at the end, and a clear reason to kill her instead of just overthrow her and put her in jail, so for storytelling, I understand it. But, a villain who much more nuanced would be cool.

[meanieweenie]

brushyourteeth wrote...

But taking that "unfriending" step was probably very brave and painful, so *hugs*!
And thanks for taking a positive view on that post - I know talking about RL religions can cause inflammatory situations, so seriously -- I'm insanely glad we were on the same wavelength!

The only thing that made it painful was that they were family... I've elected to love them from afar and keep reunion chatter to "how are the kids".

I do enjoy the grey areas that make for great decision making angst in these games. However, I think they should at least give us one good "this is evil" target. I love shades of grey, but I feel like the thing that made DA:O so much more was that there was one giant icky that everyone agreed needed to be stopped.

Modifié par meanieweenie, 04 août 2012 - 02:38 .

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

It makes me wonder what kind of experience we would have had with Meredith without the idol. Honestly. She was obviously pretty flawed in her leadership *cough*Alrik*cough* but if you choose to take your investigation missions from her.... I dunno. I got the distinct impression that she actually cared about the mages quite deeply. Like a parent who sucks at parenting, but still has some affection for the kid.

... which made Cullen the awkward big brother sitting at the breakfast table, trying to eat his cereal loudly enough that he could pretend an argument wasn't going on in the kitchen. 

She struck me as a bit of a control freak, particularly because she was pretty much running Kirkwall, when you first arrive one of the City Guards says that they take orders from Meredith and that even the Viscount wouldn't have the balls not to take orders from her, so she was clearly a bit power hungry. I guess she was a bit like The Illusive Man, she was trying to take on too much and done a lot of unsavoury things "for the greater good" but gradually went a bit power mad that was amplified by the red lyrium idol. She was definitely a ruthless dictator though.

Agree. I think this is why she turned on Hawke at the end. It was her best chance to jettison the thorn in her side. It wasn't the crazy talking... it was the logical step to eliminate a rival and brush her under the rug.