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[esper]

R2s Muse wrote...

I think if Cullen were in DA3, companion or not, they would probably progress his character development from the end of DA2, not draw from the stuttering youth who was watching over Amell/Surana, nor the hot head who was locked in a cage. Arguably by the end of DA2 he's done quite a bit of evolving.  Depending on some game choices, he can ultimately embrace what he believes the Templar Order really stands for, which is protecting both the people and the mages, and is in sharp contrast to Meredith's beliefs (best seen when he allows the mages to surrender during the pro-templar ending). But in all cases, he is defying his templar superiors at the end for what he thinks is right.

I am also intrigued to see what he might do during the mage-templar war. Are his beliefs with or against the "establishment"? Has he been disciplined for supporting Hawke? Is he even still a Templar? I think that's all story gold, and fantastic fodder for a companion.

And... of course, I'd also be over the moon if he were a LI. I think there's lots of good story there too, as I was reminded from our discussion here of some points Mary Kirby once made about designing a LI.

In any event, as Mallika said, few companions are really forced on us anyway, since BW graciously gives us many choices in how we play.

True his has evolved, but perhaps he has evolved too much. Personally I think Cullen would be better fit with a major role in a da2 expansion than in da3. He is simply too exposed for me to like him to come back. Also if you are mage siding his turning to defend Hawke seems not very heroic, but stupid as I would never understand how he got it into his head that Meridith would just arrest a Hawke that has just killed her way out of the tower. And is one of the things that does I question his mental health and to make it worse make him  makes him looks traitorous. Turning against raving lunatic commanders are all well and good, but the timing off it was way off.

The bolded part I understand, and agree with. Something good could come out of that. As for the Li thing, well I kinda figured you guys would want that, but since bioware Li tends to have issues, I am sure that if he came back he would be a LI.

Companions are forced on me if they are companions as I never kill someone or turn someone away since that would mean missing content.

[R2s Muse]

esper wrote...
True his has evolved, but perhaps he has evolved too much. Personally I think Cullen would be better fit with a major role in a da2 expansion than in da3. He is simply too exposed for me to like him to come back. 

I'm not entirely sure I understand how he might have evolved too much, but that could also be just a personal preference. In my case, I appreciated how he started out showing his scars from his experience at Kinloch Hold, but then by the end was re-evaluating his own personal philosophy on mages. I felt like he saw one extreme in Ferelden, where perhaps mages were given too much freedom, but then also saw the other with Meredith. So I liked that he in the end found his own way to be true to the Order.

That said, if I interpret "too exposed" to mean that he already had a meaty storyline in DA2, then yes, it might be unlikely for him to return in future installments (altho J Hepler has said we'll at least see some closure for him). But, then again I think part of the controversy around Cullen is that, for all his prominence in the final events of DA2, we didn't really interact with him all that much so we didn't see much of his evolution first hand. Just little hints that people like me tend to overanalyze.

Also if you are mage siding his turning to defend Hawke seems not very heroic, but stupid as I would never understand how he got it into his head that Meridith would just arrest a Hawke that has just killed her way out of the tower. And is one of the things that does I question his mental health and to make it worse make him  makes him looks traitorous. Turning against raving lunatic commanders are all well and good, but the timing off it was way off.

Weeelll, I suppose there are lots of ways to interpret this since we don't really get to see to much of his thought process (which is part of the reason I'd like to see his character arc continue in future installments, whatever they may be).

Personally, I view him standing up to Meredith as the straw that broke the camel's back. Altho, we don't actually see a scene where he lets the mages surrender in the pro-mage ending, I like to think that such an event would still likely occur given his state of character development at that point. So, I think he finally has had enough of Meredith's extremism and how she has fallen from the true purpose of the Order, in his view. As a rule-follower, he would needing something like that to make him finally stand up, since he "said [he] would never again question the purpose of the Order."

Anyhoo, those are my two cents.

[Mallika Surana]

If you want to know why people like him, there's 34 pages to read including another 70something on the old thread.  I don't feel any need to defend him to you at all.  If you're going to come in here and be contrary, then you're just going to get a contrary response from me.

As far as "not turning away or killing companions to not miss out on content", that's your choice.  I've had playthroughs where I've skipped Sten, refused to do companion quests because I don't agree with them or outright killed party members because of one reason or another because it was in character to do so.  I chose to do those things and you can choose to do them too, you just choose not to.  So, noone is forced on you.

[R2s Muse]

@ladyshamen, meant to say thank you again. I am planning to write more. We'll see if the muse bites in such an extreme way as this story did. But I have two ideas in the hopper, one involving a very different post-DA2 Cullen. Very interesting to plot him out!

And, on that note, Knight's Bloom is finished! *phew* I'm still amazed that I stuck with it and got to the end. So, the Epilogue is posted. Yay!

Also, I wanted to share something really cool. One of my readers drew Hawke and Cullen from Knight's Bloom! Hee hee! I'm so tickled. Here it is, by Inveleth.

[esper]

R2s Muse wrote...

esper wrote...
True his has evolved, but perhaps he has evolved too much. Personally I think Cullen would be better fit with a major role in a da2 expansion than in da3. He is simply too exposed for me to like him to come back. 

I'm not entirely sure I understand how he might have evolved too much, but that could also be just a personal preference. In my case, I appreciated how he started out showing his scars from his experience at Kinloch Hold, but then by the end was re-evaluating his own personal philosophy on mages. I felt like he saw one extreme in Ferelden, where perhaps mages were given too much freedom, but then also saw the other with Meredith. So I liked that he in the end found his own way to be true to the Order.

That said, if I interpret "too exposed" to mean that he already had a meaty storyline in DA2, then yes, it might be unlikely for him to return in future installments (altho J Hepler has said we'll at least see some closure for him). But, then again I think part of the controversy around Cullen is that, for all his prominence in the final events of DA2, we didn't really interact with him all that much so we didn't see much of his evolution first hand. Just little hints that people like me tend to overanalyze. 

Overanalyzing is fine why else would we love our pixel characters if we couldn't pick them apart pixel for pixel?

What I was trying to say is that there is a too wide gap between what we as players know and what the main character of da3 will know. Anders too suffers from this and he was only in an expansion, but if Cullen was in da3 the writers would have to either choose between having him tell the character stuff we allready know or have him coming across as purposely hiding informantion because we as player knows he didn't say that, that and that to pc3 and that means he is hiding stuff, grrr.  Neither situation is optimal. There will be haters of his character if he is and Li companion and they will use either off it against him. That is why I think he is better suited in an expansion with a character he has a pre-established relantionship of some sort or the gap between meta-knowlegde and character knowlegde is simply too wide.

R2s Muse wrote...

Also if you are mage siding his turning to defend Hawke seems not very heroic, but stupid as I would never understand how he got it into his head that Meridith would just arrest a Hawke that has just killed her way out of the tower. And is one of the things that does I question his mental health and to make it worse make him  makes him looks traitorous. Turning against raving lunatic commanders are all well and good, but the timing off it was way off.

Weeelll, I suppose there are lots of ways to interpret this since we don't really get to see to much of his thought process (which is part of the reason I'd like to see his character arc continue in future installments, whatever they may be).

Personally, I view him standing up to Meredith as the straw that broke the camel's back. Altho, we don't actually see a scene where he lets the mages surrender in the pro-mage ending, I like to think that such an event would still likely occur given his state of character development at that point. So, I think he finally has had enough of Meredith's extremism and how she has fallen from the true purpose of the Order, in his view. As a rule-follower, he would needing something like that to make him finally stand up, since he "said [he] would never again question the purpose of the Order."

Anyhoo, those are my two cents.

Well he is definitly the straw that breaks Meridith's back and makes her go completely nuts (which is proberly the story role his is meant to fill), but the problem is I don't see how Hawke can be the straw that breaks his (as in why he is defending Hawke) . I am pretty sure that without Hawke those three mages are dead as he doesn't stand up too vocally with Hawke there unless he is asked. I understand that he is a rule-follower, but Hawke is the person on the recieving end of the annulment who needs his saying 'enough' the least and in fact not at all, and it still doesn't change the fact that he
already knew that Meridith was gunning from Hawke before that on the pro-mage side if he had said something like, 'No this is enough' or 'I owe Hawke my life (from way back in act 1'). The first is how you understand the turning on Meridith and if he said it I could understand and aprreciate it.  
but as it is what he says is bascially 'It is alright if we arrest Hawke, but it is totattaly out of propertion that we kill her and it is a surprise you want to do that even if an annulment means to kill everything in the tower and Merdith has clearly stated that Hawke will die if she sides with the mages'. That he is taken by surprise makes him look outright stupid.
But then again he somehow had the impressioin that my Hawke once was a friend of the templars just because she saved that Keran kid, even if that misssion ended with Hawke telling him bluntly to his face that the templars are wrong, so perhaps Cullen is just a genuily bad a judging other people characters and really thought that there was no way Meridith would hurt the champion of the city. In which case now I feel sort of bad for him.

Anyway it was good to cents, I enjoyed reading them. Heres to hoping that the quotes works.   

[VampOrchid]

I think he has potential to make a great story in DA3. In DA2 we had the Mages side point of view through Anders, where we got to see what would happen if a Mage went over the edge. And not all mages agreed with his method.

It would be interested to see what a Templar who no longer agrees with the way the order is ran, try to change things. I would like a new Order formed and it would be great to see Cullen, a character from the first game, be the reason for that change. I would also like to see Jowan return.

[esper]

VampOrchid wrote...

I think he has potential to make a great story in DA3. In DA2 we had the Mages side point of view through Anders, where we got to see what would happen if a Mage went over the edge. And not all mages agreed with his method.

It would be interested to see what a Templar who no longer agrees with the way the order is ran, try to change things. I would like a new Order formed and it would be great to see Cullen, a character from the first game, be the reason for that change. I would also like to see Jowan return.

Wait. Does all of you guys assume that Cullen will be in the fraction that hunt down the mages? I assumes he will be amongst those that stays loayl to the chantry.
Unless of course the chantry goes, all Kirkwall templars are to blame and then he won't have a choice.

[sylvanaerie]

esper wrote...

VampOrchid wrote...

I think he has potential to make a great story in DA3. In DA2 we had the Mages side point of view through Anders, where we got to see what would happen if a Mage went over the edge. And not all mages agreed with his method.

It would be interested to see what a Templar who no longer agrees with the way the order is ran, try to change things. I would like a new Order formed and it would be great to see Cullen, a character from the first game, be the reason for that change. I would also like to see Jowan return.

Wait. Does all of you guys assume that Cullen will be in the fraction that hunt down the mages? I assumes he will be amongst those that stays loayl to the chantry.
Unless of course the chantry goes, all Kirkwall templars are to blame and then he won't have a choice.

I think it may depend on the Chantry's stance in DA3 where Cullen may go.  It seemed to me not so much he was objecting to the Order but to Meredith and her insanity.  I'm curious to see.  He's undergone a lot of character development over the past two games, and would welcome the idea of him as a companion (possibly a LI although, as with Teagan, he may prove more fun to speculate over than to actually have the option to romance) in a DA2 expansion (I don't see any expansion coming but hell, I've been wrong before) or in DA3.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 30 janvier 2012 - 09:41 .

[R2s Muse]

sylvanaerie wrote...

esper wrote...
Wait. Does all of you guys assume that Cullen will be in the fraction that hunt down the mages? I assumes he will be amongst those that stays loayl to the chantry.
Unless of course the chantry goes, all Kirkwall templars are to blame and then he won't have a choice.

I think it may depend on the Chantry's stance in DA3 where Cullen may go.  It seemed to me not so much he was objecting to the Order but to Meredith and her insanity.  I'm curious to see. 

Agree. I think he has his own view of what the Order stands for, which is clearly different from what Meredith thought, but it's unclear how this cleaves to whatever the stance would be of the Chantry and Order powers-that-be at that point. Also, for all we know, he could have been busted for insubordination after Act 3, which could add another dimension. Since all we know is that "all" the templars have rebelled, it'll be interesting to see what structure of any kind is left to the Order.  ... altho I still haven't gotten through Asunder, so for all I know they touch on some of this.   But I like the idea that he could be a "power for good" in re-establishing the Order  to the way it "should be."

Of course, if DA3 is a continuation, I keep thinking that it wouldn't make sense for Cullen to "start over" as a level 1+ companion... but then again, they did that with Anders after Awakenings, and it never really occurred to me while I was playing.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 30 janvier 2012 - 12:09 .

[esper]

The one that hunt downs mages have to be the most ruthlessa and zealots amongst the templars as they are thinking that the chantry are too soft and there aren't any circles left to place the mages in which means they have to kill/tranquil mages. I frankly don't think Cullen is cut out for that. But then again. He might not have a choice in the matter because of Kirkwall.

Levels are meaningless in the story. I think of my Hawke as a blood mage from the get go even if she first gets the level in 7, it is just a mechnasism. Anders is also a fully flegded spirit healer even if he first unlocks his special healing spell at level 7/8/10. That is just a mechanism.

[R2s Muse]

Allacia wrote...
Thank you - I really appreciate your kind words. Really glad you enjoyed the video! <3:D

LOL, just noticed that you also did that comedy Arishok battle one, too. Hilarious!  Indeed it is high comedy that that battle causes such hero envy in Cassandra when it was so pathetic.

p.s. Coincidentally, in case you haven't seen, just saw some facebook love for your Cullen/Wynne vid on the Alistair Fan Club page!

Modifié par R2s Muse, 30 janvier 2012 - 08:02 .

[VampOrchid]

I think he might try to make an order in the way he sees it should be ran. Like Mage and Templars on the same side. Friends even. Why have two types of people at each others throats when you would benefit from them being allies.

I think he actually understands that yes mages are dangerous, and are not like regular people, that's what he states. Mages are still people, but can't be treated like regular ones. I think he of all people might be able to make compromises between both parties.

[VampOrchid]

Did anyone else read that interview with David?!?!

He talked about Cullen in there!

[VampOrchid]

Here's the link to that interview forum

So interesting!

[R2s Muse]

OMG, thanks for that link!  Hee hee, love it! Even DG sees Cullen as the "voice of sanity," and confirms that he's not a mage hater. Excellent. Also, the hair comment cracks me up.

Since it's so great, I'm quoting here so others don't have to dig all the way through the whole article.

TUK: Any chance we'll see Cullen again, and might he be in our party?

DG: There are girls who work here who, if they had their way, definitely. He has really nice hair. Maybe. I could have plans right now and "Yeah, totally, we'd have him in the party and everything!" and then next week that would change, so I'm always leery of making promises. I like Cullen. I joke about him in some ways but I like the arc he represents. There are some minor characters, like Sandal for instance, I like the idea of having them be a unifying factor. Like R2D2 and C-3PO manage to make their way into every sort of plot. Every major story has the Maker's witnesses, who witness the big chances that are occurring, a bit of connecting tissue between the games. And there are things I think can be done with Cullen.

I like the idea that he has confronted probably the worst that the mages have, he's encountered the worst of what mages can do. Yet he hasn't done what some Templars have done, like Meredith, or--I keep wanting to call him Knight Divine--Lord Seeker Lambert in the novel, how they have reacted is to become very anti-mage and very judgemental and to paint all the mages in the same basic plot, a few bad apples spoils the bunch. Cullen to me represents another side of Templars which is a side that we need to keep active. Not all Templars are these heartless bastards who would happily torture mages, that's not true, there are Templars who are good people. I think Cullen is a good man who recognizes that there are dangerous in magic, dangers that have to be dealt with, but he doesn't lack for compassion and doesn't try to say "Well, let's take the hard approach and kill everybody and let the Maker sort them out." At the end of DA2 he's the person who sort of tries to put on the brakes, the voice of sanity if you will. I think that's important to represent, so in that respect I like the idea of Cullen reappearing, I like that element of his character, so it's definitely a possibility.

[VampOrchid]

Just a thought, but wouldn't Paul Walker make the perfect Cullen....?

[R2s Muse]

VampOrchid wrote...

Just a thought, but wouldn't Paul Walker make the perfect Cullen....?

Totally agree. Gala once did a loverly photomanip of him, here, which just bears repeating...

[Bekkael]

R2s Muse wrote...

OMG, thanks for that link!  Hee hee, love it! Even DG sees Cullen as the "voice of sanity," and confirms that he's not a mage hater. Excellent. Also, the hair comment cracks me up.

Since it's so great, I'm quoting here so others don't have to dig all the way through the whole article.

TUK: Any chance we'll see Cullen again, and might he be in our party?

DG: There are girls who work here who, if they had their way, definitely. He has really nice hair. Maybe. I could have plans right now and "Yeah, totally, we'd have him in the party and everything!" and then next week that would change, so I'm always leery of making promises. I like Cullen. I joke about him in some ways but I like the arc he represents. There are some minor characters, like Sandal for instance, I like the idea of having them be a unifying factor. Like R2D2 and C-3PO manage to make their way into every sort of plot. Every major story has the Maker's witnesses, who witness the big chances that are occurring, a bit of connecting tissue between the games. And there are things I think can be done with Cullen.

I like the idea that he has confronted probably the worst that the mages have, he's encountered the worst of what mages can do. Yet he hasn't done what some Templars have done, like Meredith, or--I keep wanting to call him Knight Divine--Lord Seeker Lambert in the novel, how they have reacted is to become very anti-mage and very judgemental and to paint all the mages in the same basic plot, a few bad apples spoils the bunch. Cullen to me represents another side of Templars which is a side that we need to keep active. Not all Templars are these heartless bastards who would happily torture mages, that's not true, there are Templars who are good people. I think Cullen is a good man who recognizes that there are dangerous in magic, dangers that have to be dealt with, but he doesn't lack for compassion and doesn't try to say "Well, let's take the hard approach and kill everybody and let the Maker sort them out." At the end of DA2 he's the person who sort of tries to put on the brakes, the voice of sanity if you will. I think that's important to represent, so in that respect I like the idea of Cullen reappearing, I like that element of his character, so it's definitely a possibility.

That's bloody awesome! Even hearing the possibility of any future inclusion for Cullen....makes me very, very happy. Thanks for sharing this, guys.

[StellaSmooth]

R2s Muse wrote...

VampOrchid wrote...

Just a thought, but wouldn't Paul Walker make the perfect Cullen....?

Totally agree. Gala once did a loverly photomanip of him, here, which just bears repeating...

Yes, he's very pretty...but I would miss the voice.*le sigh* Greg Ellis. 

I'm glad to see that DG is fond of the character. Of course, this probably means that when/ if they do bring him back he will either be a brief flash, a trainwreck that we can't look away from or absolutely batsh*t crazy. Do Templars have to have chaste marriages? I'm sure they can pull that one out of the bag again. I would cry. Cry a river. LOL. 

[Mallika Surana]

Poor CAT (Cullen Appreciate Thread) has been so lonely lately.

I have been playing Kingdoms of Amanlur: Reckoning and hearing Greg Ellis everywhere.

[ladyshamen]

I don't think Aveline and Wesley were chaste. Aveline says that it was never the right time to have kids, so.....
I'm thankful DG likes Cullen! You can't have too much Cullen!

[Bekkael]

I have to share this one that StellaSmooth showed me. <3

[Bekkael]

Mallika wrote...

Poor CAT (Cullen Appreciate Thread) has been so lonely lately.

I have been playing Kingdoms of Amanlur: Reckoning and hearing Greg Ellis everywhere.

Same.

It made me want to play DA2 again, just to talk to Cullen. I hope they heed the fans and include Cullen in some meaningful and GOOD way (not screwed up) in DA3.