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[VampOrchid]

But in the end, he stood up for what he thought was wrong. Without, blowing up a building....

[LolaLei]

I played a pro-Templar playthrough once for the achievement, it's actually really interesting to listen to some of the things Cullen will say to a Templar supporting Hawke. He still doubts Meredith and the Order, but he goes into a little more detail about things and you get to see him stand up for mages etc at the end of Act 3, which you don't get to see if you play pro-Mage. It certainly show me a different side to his personality.

[LolaLei]

[LolaLei]

[LolaLei]

[Xilizhra]

VampOrchid wrote...

So if you're going to look at it that way. Then you have to look at it that way for mages too...which by the way I'm pro mage...but still....

So take the over used example...Anders blowing up the Chantry...Uhmm yeah...so does that mean all other mages are bad? Oooh don't forge Uldred...so all other mages are gonna do the same? Remember, the blood mages following him were only doing what they were told too...so yeah...

Mages aren't an organization. Templars are. There's far more similarity of thought among the Templar Order than there is among "mages," a category that'd include every Circle mage, ever magister, every Keeper and every First, and every Saarebas.

[Jinx]

LolaLei wrote...

It looks like he waiting for us lol.

[LolaLei]

Most of them want freedom, that's a general consensus amongst mages lol. Many will do what it takes to get it, in the same way that many Templars will do what it takes to stop them.

To be honest though, I don't blame the mages or Templars, it's the Chantry that's caused this problem. They've created an army dependant on a drug that keeps many of them obeying orders. I feel pity for Templars (except the rapey torturing ones.) I'm pretty sure they conscript orphans into the Order when they come of age too, think about it, a lot of kids without parents get sent to the chantry. Some become Sisters/Brothers of the cloth, the stronger ones get put in for Templar training.

That's my theory anyway.

[LolaLei]

Lol casey, I really love that picture. He looks so melancholic, like he's looking out over the sea wondering what fate awaits him.

[Jinx]

LolaLei wrote...

Lol casey, I really love that picture. He looks so melancholic, like he's looking out over the sea wondering what fate awaits him.

Yeah your right he does lol..its kinda sad.

[Xilizhra]

LolaLei wrote...

Most of them want freedom, that's a general consensus amongst mages lol. Many will do what it takes to get it, in the same way that many Templars will do what it takes to stop them.

To be honest though, I don't blame the mages or Templars, it's the Chantry that's caused this problem. They've created an army dependant on a drug that keeps many of them obeying orders. I feel pity for Templars (except the rapey torturing ones.) I'm pretty sure they conscript orphans into the Order when they come of age too, think about it, a lot of kids without parents get sent to the chantry. Some become Sisters/Brothers of the cloth, the stronger ones get put in for Templar training.

That's my theory anyway.

The Chantry, though, didn't prosecute a war against the Circles. That was all down to the Order. The Chantry set everything up, to be sure, but the templars have slipped the leash and become worse than the Chantry ever wanted (despite that being pretty bad to begin with).

[LolaLei]

cacey lee wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Lol casey, I really love that picture. He looks so melancholic, like he's looking out over the sea wondering what fate awaits him.

Yeah your right he does lol..its kinda sad.

Yeah, he looks conflicted. I think it's supposed to be a picture of him during his time in the Ferelden Circle, but it world just as well for Kirkwall as well... Hell you can even pretend it's Orlais and he's just "getting some air", trying to take his mind off the feelings he's developing for the new protagonist lol.

[VampOrchid]

Xilizhra wrote...

VampOrchid wrote...

So if you're going to look at it that way. Then you have to look at it that way for mages too...which by the way I'm pro mage...but still....

So take the over used example...Anders blowing up the Chantry...Uhmm yeah...so does that mean all other mages are bad? Oooh don't forge Uldred...so all other mages are gonna do the same? Remember, the blood mages following him were only doing what they were told too...so yeah...

Mages aren't an organization. Templars are. There's far more similarity of thought among the Templar Order than there is among "mages," a category that'd include every Circle mage, ever magister, every Keeper and every First, and every Saarebas.

Tervinter mages are an organization. So is the group that Anders was working for. But that's more of a terroist group. And if you think of it, they, not by choice are more of a faction. School if you will.

Anyways, I'm off to bed ladies and gents. night nights

[Jinx]

Night...dream of Cullen

[LolaLei]

Xili: Agreed. The Chantry created a monster and enviably it turned on it's creator. Whoever is leading the Templar rebellion is likely corrupt or at least an extreme zealot, a lot of the Templars will follow blindly because they're either young, naive new recruits, old lyrium addled veterans with no thought process of their own, or Mage haters... I don't doubt that they'll start recruiting your average Joe who knows no better off the street soon.

That being said, there will be a fair amount that won't join the rebellion, instead staying loyal to the Divine. It's those Templars that can be educated to find a better way to solve things. I like to believe Cullen will be among them. For all his ample mistakes he's not a bad man, I honestly can't see him going against the Divine's will, which currently appears to be very sympathetic towards mages.

Modifié par LolaLei, 31 août 2012 - 05:36 .

[Xilizhra]

Truth be told, I think there'll be more mothers and clerics breaking away from the Divine to support the templars, than the other way around. Her popularity was never all that high to begin with.

I support this in part because it could lead to a rather interesting atmosphere of oppression; if the Templar Order is able to gain sufficient clout, it might be able to declare a sort of international martial law for its mage pogrom, so it wouldn't necessarily be open war at first, so much as needing to sneak around in hostile territory with the templars demanding proof of everyone suspicious that they aren't a mage. For instance.

[berelinde]

Xilizhra wrote...

Truth be told, I think there'll be more mothers and clerics breaking away from the Divine to support the templars, than the other way around. Her popularity was never all that high to begin with.

I support this in part because it could lead to a rather interesting atmosphere of oppression; if the Templar Order is able to gain sufficient clout, it might be able to declare a sort of international martial law for its mage pogrom, so it wouldn't necessarily be open war at first, so much as needing to sneak around in hostile territory with the templars demanding proof of everyone suspicious that they aren't a mage. For instance.

That last paragraph is something I've been contemplating for a while. The templars are a large body of highly-trained, highly-organized men and women with a unique skill set that allows them to neutralize mages. With enough support from clerics who have left the Chantry, it would not be difficult for them to create a new religious heirarchy led by a newly created matriarch, a Red Divine, or something similar. This would create an environment much like Tevinter with its Black Divine, but pointing in the opposite direction.

The idea of forcing suspected mages to prove that they have no magical abilities is chilling. How do you prove the non-existance of a voluntary ability? Torture? Thedas is in for a rough time, it seems.

[Xilizhra]

I was more wondering about a situation where the Lord Seeker--whom I've tentatively named Hilmen Fallowheim, of Nevarra--assumes direct control personally, stating that the Divine is currently staying within her own quarters at the Grand Cathedral, now closed off, "for her own protection." And also has the new emperor of Orlais, after Celene's assassination, in his pocket, so he's now the de facto emperor, as well as commanding all of those nations willing to accede to templar authority "for the duration of the emergency." Which would be most of them, except for Rivain and tentatively Ferelden. Rivain's policy of seers, as well as their brushes with the Qun, would probably fuel a growing crisis until Hilmen orders an Exalted March on the place.
I also see the templar net widening; in the knowledge that new mages will be born regardless, they declare that all those who carry magic in their blood need to be kept under... supervision. At first. Then outright confinement; then, near the end, he finally orders that they all be killed as well, to end the sin of magic forever.

[R2s Muse]

cacey lee wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

It looks like he waiting for us lol.

LOL ^This!

[R2s Muse]

Xilizhra wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Most of them want freedom, that's a general consensus amongst mages lol. Many will do what it takes to get it, in the same way that many Templars will do what it takes to stop them.

To be honest though, I don't blame the mages or Templars, it's the Chantry that's caused this problem. They've created an army dependant on a drug that keeps many of them obeying orders. I feel pity for Templars (except the rapey torturing ones.) I'm pretty sure they conscript orphans into the Order when they come of age too, think about it, a lot of kids without parents get sent to the chantry. Some become Sisters/Brothers of the cloth, the stronger ones get put in for Templar training.

That's my theory anyway.

The Chantry, though, didn't prosecute a war against the Circles. That was all down to the Order. The Chantry set everything up, to be sure, but the templars have slipped the leash and become worse than the Chantry ever wanted (despite that being pretty bad to begin with).

Here you're starting to mix apples and oranges, though, Xil. You can't start introducing completely hypothetical actions of a post-Nevarran Accord Templar Order when we have NO IDEA what they did or didn't do after Asunder. I think we need to stick to things we actually "know" the templars have done as reasons they are bad.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 31 août 2012 - 11:32 .

[R2s Muse]

berelinde wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Truth be told, I think there'll be more mothers and clerics breaking away from the Divine to support the templars, than the other way around. Her popularity was never all that high to begin with.

I support this in part because it could lead to a rather interesting atmosphere of oppression; if the Templar Order is able to gain sufficient clout, it might be able to declare a sort of international martial law for its mage pogrom, so it wouldn't necessarily be open war at first, so much as needing to sneak around in hostile territory with the templars demanding proof of everyone suspicious that they aren't a mage. For instance.

That last paragraph is something I've been contemplating for a while. The templars are a large body of highly-trained, highly-organized men and women with a unique skill set that allows them to neutralize mages. With enough support from clerics who have left the Chantry, it would not be difficult for them to create a new religious heirarchy led by a newly created matriarch, a Red Divine, or something similar. This would create an environment much like Tevinter with its Black Divine, but pointing in the opposite direction.

The idea of forcing suspected mages to prove that they have no magical abilities is chilling. How do you prove the non-existance of a voluntary ability? Torture? Thedas is in for a rough time, it seems.

goddammit ... just lost everything I typed ... *fume*

Anyway, OK, speculation I can get behind, as I totally agree with both of you that Thedas is in for a dark time. I headcanon that the new Templar Order isn't interested in keeping or training the mages at all, except a few who will be useful. I see them viewing new mages coming into their powers as only a threat and potential resource drain, so they would be routinely destroyed. Since the Chantry has no physical power of its own, the Order retains the Towers and uses them for prisoners of war and "loyalist" mages. I completely see them transforming back into their Inquisition-like form (no, not discussing the nonsense from the leaks! ugh) and becoming hunters again instead of wardens.

@Xil, I really like your ideas, too. I agree that Thedas is no doubt in for a rough time of it. I hadn't really thought about mothers breaking away, too, but I'll bet you're right! Next up: the Great Schism! Splinter factions of the Chantry springing up everywhere, all with their own interpretation of Andraste's will toward mages. Heh heh, interesting times.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 31 août 2012 - 11:36 .

[brushyourteeth]

I'm interested until I see somebody coming up with a scenario that proves the Chantry is completely full of ruthless wackjobs just because "I like that idea" so that it's easier to hate them.

The Chant isn't the problem - people are. Magic isn't the problem - people are. There is light and dark to both sides. The point that David Gaider keeps trying to reinforce to us is that whichever group is in power will be the group guilty of the greatest atrocities. Actually, it shows how messed up people are that they're given a strong moral code like the Chant and can fail at upholding it so miserably while convincing themselves (and others, apparently) that they're fulfilling it so completely. The mages, meanwhile, don't even have a code of conduct, and are likely to show us even more of the same laissez-faire attitude we saw in Kirkwall. Not because magic is bad, but because we'll repeatedly see it's certain individuals who are bad.

But wanting one side to be more evil so that you can hate them more.... yeah, I don't get that. To me, it invalidates all one's assertions that they already are (which I wasn't inclined to believe to begin with, but still)