89415 réponses à ce sujet

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

EDITED TO SAY: By the end of DA2, Cullen doesn't seem to have serious problems with mages who are "strong" and he is arguably okay with strong mages a bit earlier.

See, I thought this at first too, but after DG's comment the other day about how he wonders if we look into his character/history so much that we're seeing things that were never there/haven't been shown, I'm now wondering if it's a simple case of the game being rushed and certain things surrounding his storyline within DA2 not making sense, so we've filled in the gaps and possibly got it completely wrong.

I missed DG's comment. Was it specific about Cullen and mages or was it something more general?

Specific about Cullen, it was either in one of the Cullen flame threads or a thread that ended up being directly about Cullen that got closed down. I was just trying to look for it but there's so many pages in the DA3 forum that I'm having trouble locating it.

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

EDITED TO SAY: By the end of DA2, Cullen doesn't seem to have serious problems with mages who are "strong" and he is arguably okay with strong mages a bit earlier.

See, I thought this at first too, but after DG's comment the other day about how he wonders if we look into his character/history so much that we're seeing things that were never there/haven't been shown, I'm now wondering if it's a simple case of the game being rushed and certain things surrounding his storyline within DA2 not making sense, so we've filled in the gaps and possibly got it completely wrong.

I missed DG's comment. Was it specific about Cullen and mages or was it something more general?

He was commenting on Cullen fans extrapolating beyond the available material and how they take a five page short story and write a 20 page essay.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

I guess I just don't read Cullen's lines in DA:O and DA2 as being black and white. He was already toying with the idea of a relationship with a mage. This isn't new territory for him.

I don't see it as him toying with the idea of being in a relationship with a mage, because he knew it was forbidden and could never be. I'm sure he might have thought "what if things were different", but I don't think he ever considered actually secretly dating the female mage Warden, the fact that he does a runner when she tries her luck struck me as him partly escaping the situation because he was a nervous virgin, but mostly because he couldn't bring himself to break the rules of the Order.

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

EDITED TO SAY: By the end of DA2, Cullen doesn't seem to have serious problems with mages who are "strong" and he is arguably okay with strong mages a bit earlier.

See, I thought this at first too, but after DG's comment the other day about how he wonders if we look into his character/history so much that we're seeing things that were never there/haven't been shown, I'm now wondering if it's a simple case of the game being rushed and certain things surrounding his storyline within DA2 not making sense, so we've filled in the gaps and possibly got it completely wrong.

This is almost certainly true. But even before I started analyzing the heck out of him, I was struck with his reason and moderation at the end of the game. Particularly his friendship with Hawke. He does truly seem to have evolved and healed a bit.

That said, even the writers contradict themselves about him, so who knows. (yes, vieralynn, been eating popcorn and watching from the sidelines  some of your tumblr discussions... )

In the end, it all comes down to what the writers want to do with him and what their philosophy is about writing.

Do they spend a lot of time looking backward for consistency or do they plow forward telling the story that they now want to tell?

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

EDITED TO SAY: By the end of DA2, Cullen doesn't seem to have serious problems with mages who are "strong" and he is arguably okay with strong mages a bit earlier.

See, I thought this at first too, but after DG's comment the other day about how he wonders if we look into his character/history so much that we're seeing things that were never there/haven't been shown, I'm now wondering if it's a simple case of the game being rushed and certain things surrounding his storyline within DA2 not making sense, so we've filled in the gaps and possibly got it completely wrong.

This is almost certainly true. But even before I started analyzing the heck out of him, I was struck with his reason and moderation at the end of the game. Particularly his friendship with Hawke. He does truly seem to have evolved and healed a bit.

That said, even the writers contradict themselves about him, so who knows. (yes, vieralynn, been eating popcorn and watching from the sidelines  some of your tumblr discussions... )

In the end, it all comes down to what the writers want to do with him and what their philosophy is about writing.

Do they spend a lot of time looking backward for consistency or do they plow forward telling the story that they now want to tell?

LOL do they ****! They've retconned the hell out of DA. But that's what worries me, that a romance with a mage protagonist (or any class of protagonist) would feel rushed and not do his character justice.

[LolaLei]

R2: Can you remember what thread DG's post was in?

[R2s Muse]

OK there it is... amazing how quickly those threads scroll off.

http://social.biowar.../14231752&lf=8

First, slightly rude post on why fangirls like Cullen:

1) Good hair.

2) Lots of imagination.

I sometimes wonder if these fans have developed Cullen into a character separate from the one actually in the game, but either way it's nice to see he has such ardent supporters. People like stuff, sometimes for reasons. Go figure.

In response to rude fan who calls all characters mediocre:

Insofar as Cullen himself, I don't think he's a "mediocre character". He's obviously hit a chord. The only part I find interesting is that there's only so much extrapolation that can be done with what's been provided-- it's like finding a 20-page essay written about a 5-page short story.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:51 .

[LolaLei]

That's the one! Vieralynn, his post might be of use for a Tumblr debate maybe?

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

I guess I just don't read Cullen's lines in DA:O and DA2 as being black and white. He was already toying with the idea of a relationship with a mage. This isn't new territory for him.

I don't see it as him toying with the idea of being in a relationship with a mage, because he knew it was forbidden and could never be. I'm sure he might have thought "what if things were different", but I don't think he ever considered actually secretly dating the female mage Warden, the fact that he does a runner when she tries her luck struck me as him partly escaping the situation because he was a nervous virgin, but mostly because he couldn't bring himself to break the rules of the Order.

Although he is more than willing to talk to the mage warden if she doesn't blatantly hit on her. Instead, he's all "You can... come talk with me any time you like."  (here's the flow chart for the fem mage dialogue)

Also, Cullen is going to be a decade older in DA3. I still don't see this as a black and white issue for him. Yes, in the mage origin, Cullen knows it is forbidden but after he has been in the circle system for a while, he's surely heard stories. He might not know about Wynne and her mystery templar but I find it hard to believe that he doesn't know about these things happening.

And, when he is outside of the Circle structure, the rules do not apply to him.

I'm not saying that I think it will be easy for him to feel comfortable in a relationship with a mage. He will be full of issues, no doubt. But he's already bending the rules in the mage origin by encouraging Surana/Amell to be friendly with him.

[R2s Muse]

What's funny is this:
"The only part I find interesting is that there's only so much extrapolation that can be done with what's been provided-- it's like finding a 20-page essay written about a 5-page short story."

By definition, there's no limit to how much extrapolation you can do... LOL

[meanieweenie]

Well that's the beauty of art as a whole, yes? It's completely open to interpretation. What the artist means to say can be construed in so many ways by other people. He may think he's using blue paint but it looks purple to someone else. I'd love for someone to find my 5 page story worthy of a 20 page essay.

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

Well that's the beauty of art as a whole, yes? It's completely open to interpretation. What the artist means to say can be construed in so many ways by other people. He may think he's using blue paint but it looks purple to someone else. I'd love for someone to find my 5 page story worthy of a 20 page essay.

Yeah, me, too. But you know, this is just the whole fanfiction debate over again, pure and simple.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

I guess I just don't read Cullen's lines in DA:O and DA2 as being black and white. He was already toying with the idea of a relationship with a mage. This isn't new territory for him.

I don't see it as him toying with the idea of being in a relationship with a mage, because he knew it was forbidden and could never be. I'm sure he might have thought "what if things were different", but I don't think he ever considered actually secretly dating the female mage Warden, the fact that he does a runner when she tries her luck struck me as him partly escaping the situation because he was a nervous virgin, but mostly because he couldn't bring himself to break the rules of the Order.

Although he is more than willing to talk to the mage warden if she doesn't blatantly hit on her. Instead, he's all "You can... come talk with me any time you like."  (here's the flow chart for the fem mage dialogue)

Also, Cullen is going to be a decade older in DA3. I still don't see this as a black and white issue for him. Yes, in the mage origin, Cullen knows it is forbidden but after he has been in the circle system for a while, he's surely heard stories. He might not know about Wynne and her mystery templar but I find it hard to believe that he doesn't know about these things happening.

And, when he is outside of the Circle structure, the rules do not apply to him.

I'm not saying that I think it will be easy for him to feel comfortable in a relationship with a mage. He will be full of issues, no doubt. But he's already bending the rules in the mage origin by encouraging Surana/Amell to be friendly with him.

Oh I know, I was specificially refering to him in DA:O in my above post. But anyway, the way I interpreted the line where he tells her that she can talk to him any time, was him finding an excuse to be near her, despite knowing that he shouldn't (trust me I've been in there a few times lol), so although he has no intention of acting on his feelings, he still wants contact with her in some way especially since at that point when he's very sympathetic towards mages in general, but it's kinda like he knows he shouldn't be friendly with her (due to his feelings) but he can't help himself, it's morbid fascination based on his infatuation. 

Modifié par LolaLei, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:17 .

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

And, when he is outside of the Circle structure, the rules do not apply to him.

I'm not saying that I think it will be easy for him to feel comfortable in a relationship with a mage. He will be full of issues, no doubt. But he's already bending the rules in the mage origin by encouraging Surana/Amell to be friendly with him.

I think this is really the operative thing for him moving forward.

I'm personally not so convinced that his crush at the tower laid much ground work for him. Although he seems to recall Amell fondly in public, I would expect his actual crush and then vitriol spewing inside the Circle to sorta cancel each other out. Like those experiences in college you recall both fondly and cringe about, laugh awkwardly, and then try not to think about.

But I think if he doesn't have direct oversight over a mage, the rules don't apply. So then it will be more a function of how much he trusts her/him. I think that's something you could probably eventually call him out on, and he could sheepishly admit that yes, he does trust her and her control, and doesn't expect her to turn into an abomination at any moment.

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

OK there it is... amazing how quickly those threads scroll off.

http://social.biowar.../14231752&lf=8

First, slightly rude post on why fangirls like Cullen:

1) Good hair.

2) Lots of imagination.

I sometimes wonder if these fans have developed Cullen into a character separate from the one actually in the game, but either way it's nice to see he has such ardent supporters. People like stuff, sometimes for reasons. Go figure.

In response to rude fan who calls all characters mediocre:

Insofar as Cullen himself, I don't think he's a "mediocre character". He's obviously hit a chord. The only part I find interesting is that there's only so much extrapolation that can be done with what's been provided-- it's like finding a 20-page essay written about a 5-page short story.

GOOD HAIR!!!   This seems to be a running joke with DG. Too funny.  

Actually, I agree with him about the "I sometimes wonder if these fans have developed Cullen into a character separate from the one actually in the game" but not in a way that is negative or that finger-points in an accusing manner while saying "fans read between the lines. Bad fans. Bad bad bad."

This really gets into a matter of who owns the character. Legally, Cullen belongs to bioware and is theirs to develop. Socially, Cullen is a character in a multi-pathed RPG that invites players to fill in gaps with headcanon, and that invites players to develop Cullen's path through their headcanon, even if the player never writes fanfiction or makes fan comics.

Dragon Age is a great grandchild of AD&D and other similar table top PRGs. Heck, they even sell a tabletop version of the game. Everything is set up for people to take the 5-page short story and expand it. 

[meanieweenie]

LolaLei wrote...

Oh I know, I was specificially refering to him in DA:O in my above post. But anyway, the way I interprated the line where he tells her that she can talk to him any time, was him finding an excuse to be near her, despite knowing that he shouldn't (trust me I've been in there a few times lol), so although he has no intention of acting on his feelings, he still wants contact with her in some way especially since at that point when he's very sympathetic towards mages in general, but it's kinda like he knows he shouldn't be friendly with her (due to his feelings) but he can't help himself, it's morbid fascination based on his infatuation. 

So it's a gentle stalking.  (been there too! lol)

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

Well that's the beauty of art as a whole, yes? It's completely open to interpretation. What the artist means to say can be construed in so many ways by other people. He may think he's using blue paint but it looks purple to someone else. I'd love for someone to find my 5 page story worthy of a 20 page essay.

Yeah, me, too. But you know, this is just the whole fanfiction debate over again, pure and simple.

Precisely. I mean, isn't that what the original tabletop RPGs are all about? Taking the basic story/outline of the compaign and building around it, creating your own characters, worlds within worlds etc. Why should it be any different with console based RPGs.

[LolaLei]

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Oh I know, I was specificially refering to him in DA:O in my above post. But anyway, the way I interprated the line where he tells her that she can talk to him any time, was him finding an excuse to be near her, despite knowing that he shouldn't (trust me I've been in there a few times lol), so although he has no intention of acting on his feelings, he still wants contact with her in some way especially since at that point when he's very sympathetic towards mages in general, but it's kinda like he knows he shouldn't be friendly with her (due to his feelings) but he can't help himself, it's morbid fascination based on his infatuation. 

So it's a gentle stalking.  (been there too! lol)

Precisely. And we've all done it at some point in our lives. You like a guy/girl, get a little bit enthralled and then look for excuses to talk to them/run into them etc.

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

Well that's the beauty of art as a whole, yes? It's completely open to interpretation. What the artist means to say can be construed in so many ways by other people. He may think he's using blue paint but it looks purple to someone else. I'd love for someone to find my 5 page story worthy of a 20 page essay.

Yeah, me, too. But you know, this is just the whole fanfiction debate over again, pure and simple.

In my not so humble opinion, sometimes the bioware writers say things that make me wonder how much experience they have in the larger world of SF writing. This isn't a criticism. I enjoy their storytelling. But I sometimes get the feeling that some of them are young. Really young. Well, DG seems older but he says things that make me chuckle in a good way and think back to days in my life 15 years ago.

(and, no, I'm not ancient-- I started my professional career pretty young... but I've been in and around the gaming industry since the mid 90s, and hanging out with pro SF writers for 2 decades.)

Modifié par vieralynn, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:11 .

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

Well that's the beauty of art as a whole, yes? It's completely open to interpretation. What the artist means to say can be construed in so many ways by other people. He may think he's using blue paint but it looks purple to someone else. I'd love for someone to find my 5 page story worthy of a 20 page essay.

Yeah, me, too. But you know, this is just the whole fanfiction debate over again, pure and simple.

Precisely. I mean, isn't that what the original tabletop RPGs are all about? Taking the basic story/outline of the compaign and building around it, creating your own characters, worlds within worlds etc. Why should it be any different with console based RPGs.

Agree. I've never felt the inclination to write fanfiction and "contribute" to the story for any other property. :shrug:

And, as far as ownership of a character, I don't know. I think if you write a story or a movie and put it out there, then you're sharing it with your viewers. If you don't want people to engage and imagine and be inspired, then don't publish that character. And, that's my purely non-legalistic  non-expert view!

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

And, when he is outside of the Circle structure, the rules do not apply to him.

I'm not saying that I think it will be easy for him to feel comfortable in a relationship with a mage. He will be full of issues, no doubt. But he's already bending the rules in the mage origin by encouraging Surana/Amell to be friendly with him.

I think this is really the operative thing for him moving forward.

I'm personally not so convinced that his crush at the tower laid much ground work for him. Although he seems to recall Amell fondly in public, I would expect his actual crush and then vitriol spewing inside the Circle to sorta cancel each other out. Like those experiences in college you recall both fondly and cringe about, laugh awkwardly, and then try not to think about.

But I think if he doesn't have direct oversight over a mage, the rules don't apply. So then it will be more a function of how much he trusts her/him. I think that's something you could probably eventually call him out on, and he could sheepishly admit that yes, he does trust her and her control, and doesn't expect her to turn into an abomination at any moment.

I think if he was to romance a mage, his issues with the whole abomination/blood mage thing would be go beyond just "blood magic is bad and demons must be killed", it would (hopefully) be based on a primal fear of him losing the woman/man he loves, mixed with the fear he felt after watching his friends twisting into fleshy abominations.

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Oh I know, I was specificially refering to him in DA:O in my above post. But anyway, the way I interprated the line where he tells her that she can talk to him any time, was him finding an excuse to be near her, despite knowing that he shouldn't (trust me I've been in there a few times lol), so although he has no intention of acting on his feelings, he still wants contact with her in some way especially since at that point when he's very sympathetic towards mages in general, but it's kinda like he knows he shouldn't be friendly with her (due to his feelings) but he can't help himself, it's morbid fascination based on his infatuation. 

So it's a gentle stalking.  (been there too! lol)

Precisely. And we've all done it at some point in our lives. You like a guy/girl, get a little bit enthralled and then look for excuses to talk to them/run into them etc.

Yep. 

It could be interpreted multiple ways given that we don't have the original character motivation notes for him and such notes may have never been written beyond what is in the toolset and "Cullen has a crush."

I don't read it as such as morbid fascination. But, legitimately, it could be either. Depends on what the writers were thinking (or not) at the time.

Modifié par vieralynn, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:16 .

[LolaLei]

*Interpreted

My spelling is awful today lol.

Modifié par LolaLei, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:20 .

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

And, when he is outside of the Circle structure, the rules do not apply to him.

I'm not saying that I think it will be easy for him to feel comfortable in a relationship with a mage. He will be full of issues, no doubt. But he's already bending the rules in the mage origin by encouraging Surana/Amell to be friendly with him.

I think this is really the operative thing for him moving forward.

I'm personally not so convinced that his crush at the tower laid much ground work for him. Although he seems to recall Amell fondly in public, I would expect his actual crush and then vitriol spewing inside the Circle to sorta cancel each other out. Like those experiences in college you recall both fondly and cringe about, laugh awkwardly, and then try not to think about.

But I think if he doesn't have direct oversight over a mage, the rules don't apply. So then it will be more a function of how much he trusts her/him. I think that's something you could probably eventually call him out on, and he could sheepishly admit that yes, he does trust her and her control, and doesn't expect her to turn into an abomination at any moment.

I think if he was to romance a mage, his issues with the whole abomination/blood mage thing would be go beyond just "blood magic is bad and demons must be killed", it would (hopefully) be based on a primal fear of him losing the woman/man he loves, mixed with the fear he felt after watching his friends twisting into fleshy abominations.

Oh, Agree! I think there will be angst and primal fear... but I see those being the lovely speedbumps along the romance road, not roadblocks that stop you from going there.

This reminds me of your early-on scenario when  he freaks about losing her to an abomination and doesn't want her using magic and such. That would be a pretty cool scene, IIRC. Wasn't it something like, "Can't you just stop using magic? I can't stand the thought of you being in such danger. What if you never come back from the Fade? Never come back to me...?"

And she could say, "But the magic is a part of me, Cullen. It always will be. Do you want me to deny who am I?"

Ah... good stuff... Yeah, such delightful angst... I do so hope he becomes a LI.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Oh I know, I was specificially refering to him in DA:O in my above post. But anyway, the way I interprated the line where he tells her that she can talk to him any time, was him finding an excuse to be near her, despite knowing that he shouldn't (trust me I've been in there a few times lol), so although he has no intention of acting on his feelings, he still wants contact with her in some way especially since at that point when he's very sympathetic towards mages in general, but it's kinda like he knows he shouldn't be friendly with her (due to his feelings) but he can't help himself, it's morbid fascination based on his infatuation. 

So it's a gentle stalking.  (been there too! lol)

Precisely. And we've all done it at some point in our lives. You like a guy/girl, get a little bit enthralled and then look for excuses to talk to them/run into them etc.

Yep. 

It could be interpreted multiple ways given that we don't have the original character motivation notes for him and such notes may have never been written beyond what is in the toolset and "Cullen has a crush."

I don't read it as such as morbid fascination. But, legitimately, it could be either. Depends on what the writers were thinking (or not) at the time.

Morbid fascination is probably the wrong term (I haven't slept yet) but I guess the only way I can describe it is an overwhelming, uncontrollable desire to find an excuse to talk to said person even though you have no intention of acting upon any of your desires. Or at least, that's what I used to experience when I was a youngster.