89415 réponses à ce sujet

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

And, when he is outside of the Circle structure, the rules do not apply to him.

I'm not saying that I think it will be easy for him to feel comfortable in a relationship with a mage. He will be full of issues, no doubt. But he's already bending the rules in the mage origin by encouraging Surana/Amell to be friendly with him.

I think this is really the operative thing for him moving forward.

I'm personally not so convinced that his crush at the tower laid much ground work for him. Although he seems to recall Amell fondly in public, I would expect his actual crush and then vitriol spewing inside the Circle to sorta cancel each other out. Like those experiences in college you recall both fondly and cringe about, laugh awkwardly, and then try not to think about.

But I think if he doesn't have direct oversight over a mage, the rules don't apply. So then it will be more a function of how much he trusts her/him. I think that's something you could probably eventually call him out on, and he could sheepishly admit that yes, he does trust her and her control, and doesn't expect her to turn into an abomination at any moment.

I'm big on the whole idea that trust defines all of Cullen's issues in DA:O and DA2. 

I would enjoy seeing Cullen sheepishly admit that he isn't sure if he really trusts the PC at all, but he's been following her/him for whatever great noble cause. Maybe the trust issue could work differently on a friendship vs rival path?!

(Did they confirm that friendship/rivalry is coming back?)

Modifié par vieralynn, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:21 .

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

That's the one! Vieralynn, his post might be of use for a Tumblr debate maybe?

LOL!  I'm trying to avoid tumblr debates, despite the contrary evidence.  

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

I'm big on the whole idea that trust defines all of Cullen's issues in DA:O and DA2. 

I would enjoy seeing Cullen sheepishly admit that he isn't sure if he really trusts the PC at all, but he's been following her/him for whatever great noble cause. Maybe the trust issue could work differently on a friendship vs rival path?!

(Did they confirm that friendship/rivalry is coming back?)

Love the trust issue for him as well. Was just writing something along those lines.

On friendship/rivalry, Lola prob knows this better, but I think all they've said is that it'll be something in between DA1 and DA2.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

And, when he is outside of the Circle structure, the rules do not apply to him.

I'm not saying that I think it will be easy for him to feel comfortable in a relationship with a mage. He will be full of issues, no doubt. But he's already bending the rules in the mage origin by encouraging Surana/Amell to be friendly with him.

I think this is really the operative thing for him moving forward.

I'm personally not so convinced that his crush at the tower laid much ground work for him. Although he seems to recall Amell fondly in public, I would expect his actual crush and then vitriol spewing inside the Circle to sorta cancel each other out. Like those experiences in college you recall both fondly and cringe about, laugh awkwardly, and then try not to think about.

But I think if he doesn't have direct oversight over a mage, the rules don't apply. So then it will be more a function of how much he trusts her/him. I think that's something you could probably eventually call him out on, and he could sheepishly admit that yes, he does trust her and her control, and doesn't expect her to turn into an abomination at any moment.

I'm big on the whole idea that trust defines all of Cullen's issues in DA:O and DA2. 

I would enjoy seeing Cullen sheepishly admit that he isn't sure if he really trusts the PC at all, but he's been following her/him for whatever great noble cause. Maybe the trust issue could work differently on a friendship vs rival path?!

(Did they confirm that friendship/rivalry is coming back?)

I could see him being intially wary and cautious of the protagonist at first, regardless of his/her class, simply because he's been screwed over so many times over the years. If the protagonist is a mage then I suspect he'll always be vigilant, more so if he's romancing him/her because the last thing he'd want is the protagonist turning into a raving loon/abomination, especially when it's someone he loves/cares about deeply.

Modifié par LolaLei, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:27 .

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

I'm big on the whole idea that trust defines all of Cullen's issues in DA:O and DA2. 

I would enjoy seeing Cullen sheepishly admit that he isn't sure if he really trusts the PC at all, but he's been following her/him for whatever great noble cause. Maybe the trust issue could work differently on a friendship vs rival path?!

(Did they confirm that friendship/rivalry is coming back?)

Love the trust issue for him as well. Was just writing something along those lines.

On friendship/rivalry, Lola prob knows this better, but I think all they've said is that it'll be something in between DA1 and DA2.

I vaguely remember them saying that it'll most likely be the whole love/hate thing again, but at the time they were trying to work out a better way to impliment things.

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...
Morbid fascination is probably the wrong term (I haven't slept yet) but I guess the only way I can describe it is an overwhelming, uncontrollable desire to find an excuse to talk to said person even though you have no intention of acting upon any of your desires. Or at least, that's what I used to experience when I was a youngster.

Oh, that description makes sense.  That is definitely plausible. 

I still interpret his actions a little differently. He has been told that being interested in a mage is "ill-advised" but he doesn't understand why. He knows he shouldn't act on it, but he's pushing the boundaries to see what is possible. Like, he's thinking, "I'm not supposed to do anything with her but ... I can talk with her!" 

Also, the whole tower seems to be gossipping about Cullen's infatuation so even if he isn't planning on doing something VERY FORBIDDEN, he will figure out just how to get his toe right up against the line without crossing it. At least, that's how I see it.

He questions other aspects of his templar duties so I can see him trying to understand for himself what is and isn't acceptable. 

[vieralynn]

Love-hate?! Could be interesting.

I like the possibilities of the friendship-rivalry scale, but it's implementation was very underwhelming in some cases. Anders bugged me the most because the friendship scale assumes that I agree with Anders 100%, right down to fine details. Many of the options I want with Anders are only available if Hawke rivals him, but playing a mage-supporting Hawke who rivals Anders requires intense meta-gaming. Very unsatisfying.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
Morbid fascination is probably the wrong term (I haven't slept yet) but I guess the only way I can describe it is an overwhelming, uncontrollable desire to find an excuse to talk to said person even though you have no intention of acting upon any of your desires. Or at least, that's what I used to experience when I was a youngster.

Oh, that description makes sense.  That is definitely plausible. 

I still interpret his actions a little differently. He has been told that being interested in a mage is "ill-advised" but he doesn't understand why. He knows he shouldn't act on it, but he's pushing the boundaries to see what is possible. Like, he's thinking, "I'm not supposed to do anything with her but ... I can talk with her!" 

Also, the whole tower seems to be gossipping about Cullen's infatuation so even if he isn't planning on doing something VERY FORBIDDEN, he will figure out just how to get his toe right up against the line without crossing it. At least, that's how I see it.

He questions other aspects of his templar duties so I can see him trying to understand for himself what is and isn't acceptable. 

I've always wondered about that "ill-advised" line of dialogue. I can't decide if I think it means that he'd either spoken to another Templar/Gregoire about it, seeking guidance, or if he people had caught on to the fact that he liked her due to his stuttering etc around her etc, OR if he was just aware that it's "ill-advised" because the Templars give you a lecture about fraternization during your training etc.

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...
I could see him being intially wary and cautious of the protagonist at first, regardless of his/her class, simply because he's been screwed over so many times over the years. If the protagonist is a mage then I suspect he'll always be vigilant, more so if he's romancing him/her because the last thing he'd want is the protagonist turning into a raving loon/abomination, especially when it's someone he loves/cares about deeply.

I can see all of this happening so easily. The idea of Cullen being very vigilant with a mage is a premise in a multi-chapter fic I will probably start posting soon.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

Love-hate?! Could be interesting.

I like the possibilities of the friendship-rivalry scale, but it's implementation was very underwhelming in some cases. Anders bugged me the most because the friendship scale assumes that I agree with Anders 100%, right down to fine details. Many of the options I want with Anders are only available if Hawke rivals him, but playing a mage-supporting Hawke who rivals Anders requires intense meta-gaming. Very unsatisfying.

Perhaps they could implement some sort of dual scale system? One part for friendship/rivalry based on personality and the other based on political strategy/beliefs. So for example, Cullen likes you as a person, you're nice to him and you get on well on a personal/intimate level, but he doesn't always agree with the way you get things done/your beliefs.

Modifié par LolaLei, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:49 .

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
Morbid fascination is probably the wrong term (I haven't slept yet) but I guess the only way I can describe it is an overwhelming, uncontrollable desire to find an excuse to talk to said person even though you have no intention of acting upon any of your desires. Or at least, that's what I used to experience when I was a youngster.

Oh, that description makes sense.  That is definitely plausible. 

I still interpret his actions a little differently. He has been told that being interested in a mage is "ill-advised" but he doesn't understand why. He knows he shouldn't act on it, but he's pushing the boundaries to see what is possible. Like, he's thinking, "I'm not supposed to do anything with her but ... I can talk with her!" 

Also, the whole tower seems to be gossipping about Cullen's infatuation so even if he isn't planning on doing something VERY FORBIDDEN, he will figure out just how to get his toe right up against the line without crossing it. At least, that's how I see it.

He questions other aspects of his templar duties so I can see him trying to understand for himself what is and isn't acceptable. 

I've always wondered about that "ill-advised" line of dialogue. I can't decide if I think it means that he'd either spoken to another Templar/Gregoire about it, seeking guidance, or if he people had caught on to the fact that he liked her due to his stuttering etc around her etc, OR if he was just aware that it's "ill-advised" because the Templars give you a lecture about fraternization during your training etc.

That "A is for Abomination" templar training guide probably has chapters on "C is for Chastity Belt," "D is for Don't" and "F is for the Foulness of Fraternization." 

My headcanon is that all of it happened:  templar training told him not to, people in the tower caught on to Cullen's infatuation and told him "no!" and eventually someone like Greagoir wagged his finger at Cullen.

(I've got to run but I'll be back sometime later in the weekend.)

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

Love-hate?! Could be interesting.

I like the possibilities of the friendship-rivalry scale, but it's implementation was very underwhelming in some cases. Anders bugged me the most because the friendship scale assumes that I agree with Anders 100%, right down to fine details. Many of the options I want with Anders are only available if Hawke rivals him, but playing a mage-supporting Hawke who rivals Anders requires intense meta-gaming. Very unsatisfying.

Perhaps they could implement some sort of dual scale system? One part for friendship/rivalry based on personality and the other based on political strategy/beliefs. So for example, Cullen likes you as a person, you're nice to him and you get on well on a personal/intimate level, but he doesn't always agree with the way you get things done/your beliefs.

That could be interesting but I don't think that would have fixed my problem with Anders, at least not the way they implemented things in DA2. That dual scale would have made my problem with Merrill go away. Usually I'm nice to Merrill (+10) but I condemn blood magic (-10). If I don't meta-game, I end up with Merrill in neutral during Act 2 and 3. 

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
Morbid fascination is probably the wrong term (I haven't slept yet) but I guess the only way I can describe it is an overwhelming, uncontrollable desire to find an excuse to talk to said person even though you have no intention of acting upon any of your desires. Or at least, that's what I used to experience when I was a youngster.

Oh, that description makes sense.  That is definitely plausible. 

I still interpret his actions a little differently. He has been told that being interested in a mage is "ill-advised" but he doesn't understand why. He knows he shouldn't act on it, but he's pushing the boundaries to see what is possible. Like, he's thinking, "I'm not supposed to do anything with her but ... I can talk with her!" 

Also, the whole tower seems to be gossipping about Cullen's infatuation so even if he isn't planning on doing something VERY FORBIDDEN, he will figure out just how to get his toe right up against the line without crossing it. At least, that's how I see it.

He questions other aspects of his templar duties so I can see him trying to understand for himself what is and isn't acceptable. 

I've always wondered about that "ill-advised" line of dialogue. I can't decide if I think it means that he'd either spoken to another Templar/Gregoire about it, seeking guidance, or if he people had caught on to the fact that he liked her due to his stuttering etc around her etc, OR if he was just aware that it's "ill-advised" because the Templars give you a lecture about fraternization during your training etc.

That "A is for Abomination" templar training guide probably has chapters on "C is for Chastity Belt," "D is for Don't" and "F is for the Foulness of Fraternization." 

My headcanon is that all of it happened:  templar training told him not to, people in the tower caught on to Cullen's infatuation and told him "no!" and eventually someone like Greagoir wagged his finger at Cullen.

(I've got to run but I'll be back sometime later in the weekend.)

Yeah that sounds more likely, and he either denied it but it was obvious that he liked her, or they didn't directly say to him "Bad Cullen, no eyeing up the pretty mage!", and instead reiterated to him that it's a no-no lol.

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

Love-hate?! Could be interesting.

I like the possibilities of the friendship-rivalry scale, but it's implementation was very underwhelming in some cases. Anders bugged me the most because the friendship scale assumes that I agree with Anders 100%, right down to fine details. Many of the options I want with Anders are only available if Hawke rivals him, but playing a mage-supporting Hawke who rivals Anders requires intense meta-gaming. Very unsatisfying.

Perhaps they could implement some sort of dual scale system? One part for friendship/rivalry based on personality and the other based on political strategy/beliefs. So for example, Cullen likes you as a person, you're nice to him and you get on well on a personal/intimate level, but he doesn't always agree with the way you get things done/your beliefs.

That could be interesting but I don't think that would have fixed my problem with Anders, at least not the way they implemented things in DA2. That dual scale would have made my problem with Merrill go away. Usually I'm nice to Merrill (+10) but I condemn blood magic (-10). If I don't meta-game, I end up with Merrill in neutral during Act 2 and 3. 

I'm not entirely sure if it would even work, I can imagine it would be difficult. 

I think Anders would have been offended regardless since the Mages plight was literally all consuming in his case, thanks to the whole Justice thing lol.

[LolaLei]

Vieralynn: You know you're posting up all Cullen's audio dialogue? Could you post up the one where he says something along the lines of:

"Did someone give you that idea, because I think you need to give them their money back" - I'm really curious to hear the tone in which he says it, we have a theory here that his sense of humor would be quite dry/sarcastic.

Modifié par LolaLei, 29 septembre 2012 - 02:05 .

[berelinde]

I can't stay long (off to run errands), but I really love the conversations that have been happening over the last few pages. "Lovely speedbumps" has to be my favorite imagery to date.

[Minttymint]

Wow the threads back to jumping 20-odd pages a night. Im glad.

[R2s Muse]

MinttyMint wrote...

Wow the threads back to jumping 20-odd pages a night. Im glad.

Oh man, Mintty I love your new banner!

[Minttymint]

R2s Muse wrote...

MinttyMint wrote...

Wow the threads back to jumping 20-odd pages a night. Im glad.

Oh man, Mintty I love your new banner!

Thank you! 

[R2s Muse]

Avejajed wrote...

Okay, I have been doing a lot of thinking recently about the circle. And, leaving my own personal convictions about real life religion aside, since it has no bearing whatsoever on this game, I've come to the conclusion that I do not support a reunited circle. I support the chantry. I believe that a lot of good can come of it and does come of it. But I don't think a circle is the correct way or the best way to deal with the mage issue.

I think the best way to deal with the mages is to send them to Hogwarts.

I like the Hogwarts model as well, since I think the most important thing the Circle can do is train mages to use their magic safely and wisely. It's been pointed out that there may still be a danger in letting non-Harrowed mages wander around without protection, but perhaps students don't get their summer's off til they're Harrowed and don't get to go to Hogsmeade until they're more senior? There's some promise there, though.

edited for actual english...

Modifié par R2s Muse, 29 septembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[Narcia_]

Very interesting conversation over the last few pages!

I was thinking that whether they re-form the circles, or start up magic school, and even what might help Cullen decide his final stance on mages will be dependent on whatever the big mystery is. I'd love to find out more about the origins of magic, and the golden/black city etc ... if they decided not to explore that, then what does the chantry actually think they know? They obviously have secrets. They're not above using blood magic (phylacteries) themselves, and the burning question about lyrium? Do they enslave and brainwash the templars, too? What would he do if he discovered he'd been manipulated in this way? I doubt he would lose his faith an Andraste and the maker if it were simply chantry machinations. Better yet, what if Sandal's "prophecy" comes true, and everyone ends up with magic? LOL

[R2s Muse]

Avejajed wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

Okay, I have been doing a lot of thinking recently about the circle. And, leaving my own personal convictions about real life religion aside, since it has no bearing whatsoever on this game, I've come to the conclusion that I do not support a reunited circle. I support the chantry. I believe that a lot of good can come of it and does come of it. But I don't think a circle is the correct way or the best way to deal with the mage issue.

I think the best way to deal with the mages is to send them to Hogwarts.

I like the Hogwarts model as well, since I think the most important thing the Circle can do is train mages to use their magic safely and wisely. It's been pointed out that there may still be a danger in letting non-Harrowed mages wander around without protection, but perhaps students don't get their summer's off til they're Harrowed and don't get to the Hogsmeade until their more senior? There's some promise there, though.

I'm glad you took me seriously. Think about it- the school wont keep bad mages from turning bad- I mean, Voldemort, hello, but it may seriously help them, to learn about their gift, to learn how to control it, etc.

LOL Should I not have? Yeah, I've always thought education is the key (awww, even Cullen thinks so, too!)  then once you "graduate" at your Harrowing, you can leave.  Then, maybe like a sex offender, you have to register whenever you go to a new town, check in with the Guard, some of which also have templar-like training.

[R2s Muse]

Narcia_ wrote...

Very interesting conversation over the last few pages!

I was thinking that whether they re-form the circles, or start up magic school, and even what might help Cullen decide his final stance on mages will be dependent on whatever the big mystery is. I'd love to find out more about the origins of magic, and the golden/black city etc ... if they decided not to explore that, then what does the chantry actually think they know? They obviously have secrets. They're not above using blood magic (phylacteries) themselves, and the burning question about lyrium? Do they enslave and brainwash the templars, too? What would he do if he discovered he'd been manipulated in this way? I doubt he would lose his faith an Andraste and the maker if it were simply chantry machinations. Better yet, what if Sandal's "prophecy" comes true, and everyone ends up with magic? LOL

I would love for some total, out-of-left field issue to barrel in to the mage-templar debate, like a new document surfaces that Andraste was a mage, and the whole political hierarchy is shaken to its core. The purists send out assassins to destroy any evidence, etc. while new prophets arise, reinterpreting the Chant and start to gather their own following. In between, Justinia V's support crumbles even further as she has to distance herself from these new findings to shore up the Chantry and so in effect must backpedal on her support of the mages. Now she's a flip flopper and fewer support  her.  Maybe she hires the PC to find the truth, but Cass comes along with the secret mandate to bury anything bad you learn, ala Evangeline in Asunder.

Some big show down with our PC at the center of the controversy, something slightly mystical happens that can  be interpreted in several ways. Sorta like the deus ex machina in Raiders of the Lost Ark when the bad guys open the ark and get preferentially nuked, leaving behind the good guys unscathed and scratching their heads. This of course leaves us at the end with no real answers about Andraste, so not diminishing her  mystique or the faith of her followers, but the Chantry is irrevocably changed as an institution.