In this case, I totally agree.esper wrote...
Sylvianus wrote...
One thing is certain. Do not force us to be the leader of the mages if we saved the circle. I saved the circle because I had no choice first, and because my sister was in danger. My character doesn't care the situation of the Mages. That is not my Hawk who becomes suddenly " the leader " of mages. He doesn't have to feel the need to be the leader of the Mages.
One option, that's all.
Which is why I propose the activerebel/ goes into hiding and active templarally/goes into hiding options in a coming dlc/expansion.
Do you think the developers will allow Hawke to be a leader to the mages?
#26
Posté 26 août 2011 - 04:07
#27
Posté 26 août 2011 - 04:11
LobselVith8 wrote...
Harid wrote...
Given that my Hawke sided with the Templars, I don't think it would be plausible without invalidating the choice that some people have made.
And given how that was one of the major complaints people had with Dragon Age 2, I think it would be wise for Bioware to choose another person all together. We should have met this person already.
Why would accomodating a possible scenerio for a pro-mage Hawke negate that a pro-templar Hawke becomes the new Viscount of Kirkwall? Dragon Age 2 was able to accomodate King Alistair making an appearance for people who chose him as the new King of Ferelden, and (to the best of my knowledge) it didn't force players to deal with him if their respective Wardens didn't chose Alistair to become the new King. The same goes for addressing whether The Warden was from the Circle of Ferelden, Marethari's clan, the Great Thaig of Orzammar, the Denerim Alienage, or the teyrnir of Highever.
Why would another person be chosen for players who would like their Champion of Kirkwall to finally be proactive and intelligent instead of reactive? I wasn't talking about forcing a "canon" decision throughout every DLC expansion, but addressing Hawke being a leader to the mages prior to his "disappearance" (which, so far, only seems to be that the Chantry and the templars aren't able to locate him, with Leliana suspecting that his disappearance could be tied to The Warden's disappearance, which could be as true for a pro-mage Warden who doesn't want to deal with the Chantry or the rebel templar order).
Because we already know Hawke vanishes regardless of our choices. Mage leadership should not vanish with him/her which it would, invariably, given Bioware narrative.
To put it succinctly, why would we build a leader around someone who we already know to be missing. Mages would be better fit with a strong leader through the entirety of their war, given the large and obvious fact that they have no leadership in general. Building one away from the shambolic madness of Dragon Age 2 would do them better, as it would help to close the numerous plot holes Dragon Age 2 created in the first place.
Then what of the people who don't want to lead anything? I sided with the Templars, but if I had the oppurtunity, I would take the chance to cull both ranks and put both in line to be the savior of the people, rather than a leader in two fronts I could not literally care less about.
That's not even to mention the large character shift it would be in Hawke, who proved him/herself to be little more than a a number two in his/her respective story. He wasn't a tactitian, he wasn't a diplomat, Hawke was a killer in DA2, that all s/he did.
Modifié par Harid, 26 août 2011 - 04:13 .
#28
Posté 26 août 2011 - 04:21
sided with the Templars
Ah, yes, mages aren't people.savior of the people
Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 août 2011 - 04:21 .
#29
Posté 26 août 2011 - 04:23
Harid wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Harid wrote...
Given that my Hawke sided with the Templars, I don't think it would be plausible without invalidating the choice that some people have made.
And given how that was one of the major complaints people had with Dragon Age 2, I think it would be wise for Bioware to choose another person all together. We should have met this person already.
Why would accomodating a possible scenerio for a pro-mage Hawke negate that a pro-templar Hawke becomes the new Viscount of Kirkwall? Dragon Age 2 was able to accomodate King Alistair making an appearance for people who chose him as the new King of Ferelden, and (to the best of my knowledge) it didn't force players to deal with him if their respective Wardens didn't chose Alistair to become the new King. The same goes for addressing whether The Warden was from the Circle of Ferelden, Marethari's clan, the Great Thaig of Orzammar, the Denerim Alienage, or the teyrnir of Highever.
Why would another person be chosen for players who would like their Champion of Kirkwall to finally be proactive and intelligent instead of reactive? I wasn't talking about forcing a "canon" decision throughout every DLC expansion, but addressing Hawke being a leader to the mages prior to his "disappearance" (which, so far, only seems to be that the Chantry and the templars aren't able to locate him, with Leliana suspecting that his disappearance could be tied to The Warden's disappearance, which could be as true for a pro-mage Warden who doesn't want to deal with the Chantry or the rebel templar order).
Because we already know Hawke vanishes regardless of our choices. Mage leadership should not vanish with him/her which it would, invariably, given Bioware narrative.
To put it succinctly, why would we build a leader around someone who we already know to be missing. Mages would be better fit with a strong leader through the entirety of their war, given the large and obvious fact that they have no leadership in general. Building one away from the shambolic madness of Dragon Age 2 would do them better, as it would help to close the numerous plot holes Dragon Age 2 created in the first place.
Then what of the people who don't want to lead anything? I sided with the Templars, but if I had the oppurtunity, I would take the chance to cull both ranks and put both in line to be the savior of the people, rather than a leader in two fronts I could not literally care less about.
That's not even to mention the large character shift it would be in Hawke, who proved him/herself to be little more than a a number two in his/her respective story. He wasn't a tactitian, he wasn't a diplomat, Hawke was a killer in DA2, that all s/he did.
Why would the leader of the pro-mages wish the chantry to find them?
To be honest I was baffled endlessly by Cassandra at the end: 'I wish to find the champion because she is a hero to the mages and they will listne to her if she ask them to stop', few minutes before Cassandra accused my Hawke of being an apostate who came to Kirkwall to upsurp the chantry - If that is what she originally thought why would she even think that Hawke would calm the mages.
Leliana and Cassandra don't strike me as the best investigators in Thedas, and if they are the chantry's best bet, I don't think that it is that diffucult to hide from the organisation.
#30
Posté 26 août 2011 - 04:42
Xilizhra wrote...
sided with the Templars
Ah, yes, mages aren't people.savior of the people
Much like Mutants being different from people in comic books, I see mages as something similar that the general public needs to be protected from. Regular people cannot shoot fireballs, dominate minds with Blood magic, and travel through the earth in a blink of an eye. Now you can think of mages as ****** superior like some posters here do, and I don't really care. But like I've stated before I will NEVER follow the mages, without the mages coming up with some plan outside of that they want freedom because they are like everyone else. . .when they aren't at all.
Deal with it. That's not what the topic is about, and as long as you continue being petty I will not respond to you.
And I have trouble believing the seekers would not be able to find you, if you are the leader of the mage rebellion. But even if they couldn't, they would be able to find you if you are the leader of the bloody Templar rebellion as well, you are pretty much siding with them. Given how you vanish regardless of choice, templar or mage, one can come to the conclusion that you will not be found by normal means, if not ever again. The way Bioware has written this story so far, at least to me there is clearly a third party at work that is taking out people that can stop it.
Modifié par Harid, 26 août 2011 - 04:44 .
#31
Posté 26 août 2011 - 04:45
esper wrote...
Why would the leader of the pro-mages wish the chantry to find them?
To be honest I was baffled endlessly by Cassandra at the end: 'I wish to find the champion because she is a hero to the mages and they will listne to her if she ask them to stop', few minutes before Cassandra accused my Hawke of being an apostate who came to Kirkwall to upsurp the chantry - If that is what she originally thought why would she even think that Hawke would calm the mages.
Two possibilities.
The first is that she's not being totally honest with Varric - the best way to spur him into telling the true story is to make him want to put the record straight
The second is that she's carrying an offer from the Chantry which she thinks they will find interesting. Mages are going to have to make a deal eventually - if the divine's prepared to offer (for example) self government in return for regulation, then they'd be foolish to turn it down flat.
Modifié par Wulfram, 26 août 2011 - 04:45 .
#32
Posté 26 août 2011 - 04:49
Harid wrote...
Because we already know Hawke vanishes regardless of our choices. Mage leadership should not vanish with him/her which it would, invariably, given Bioware narrative.
All we know is that the Chantry and the Order of Templars can't locate Hawke. Leliana's speculations aren't fact, they are simply her opinions on why Hawke and The Warden can't be located. Considering that The Warden was able to be Arl of Amaranthine, venture into Amgarrak, and head into the Dragonbone Wastes, why couldn't Hawke be a leader to the mages if players want that as an option for what their respective, pro-mage Hawke is doing? Especially given that he has three years where he can be an intelligent, pro-active force. I'm a little tired of Hawke doing nothing for years.
Harid wrote...
To put it succinctly, why would we build a leader around someone who we already know to be missing. Mages would be better fit with a strong leader through the entirety of their war, given the large and obvious fact that they have no leadership in general. Building one away from the shambolic madness of Dragon Age 2 would do them better, as it would help to close the numerous plot holes Dragon Age 2 created in the first place.
If a pro-mage Hawke is aiding the mages, why would he allow himself to be discovered by the templars? Why would he have any interest in dealing with Leliana? Again, Leliana's speculations about why Hawke can't be found doesn't make her theory accurate.
Harid wrote...
Then what of the people who don't want to lead anything? I sided with the Templars, but if I had the oppurtunity, I would take the chance to cull both ranks and put both in line to be the savior of the people, rather than a leader in two fronts I could not literally care less about.
Nothing in my OP suggests that players who sided with the mages should be forced to be a leader to the mages. I recommended this as a possible option for a pro-mage Hawke in a post-Kirkwall Right of Annulment DLC. It's no different than if the DLC where to acknowledge that a pro-templar Hawke is currently the Viscount of Kirkwall.
Harid wrote...
That's not even to mention the large character shift it would be in Hawke, who proved him/herself to be little more than a a number two in his/her respective story. He wasn't a tactitian, he wasn't a diplomat, Hawke was a killer in DA2, that all s/he did.
The asinine story that was delivered in Dragon Age 2 shouldn't prevent Hawke from being intelligent and proactive simply because Varric's Story Hawke wasn't.
#33
Guest_FemaleMageFan_*
Posté 26 août 2011 - 04:55
Guest_FemaleMageFan_*
#34
Posté 26 août 2011 - 04:57
That's a cop out no matter what you say. Everything else was largely resolved in my post that you missed.
#35
Posté 26 août 2011 - 05:01
1. Some Nobles ask for you to be the Viscount no matter if you were for the Templars or the Mages.
2. The Viscount should represent the Nobles and not the anything else.
3. It's Meredith that was controlling it all from behind the scenes for her own goals.
4. It ended up being a game mechanic simply that it takes being a pro-templar to get the an achievement in the end.
5. Game mechanics does not define anything but that alone. The Viscount is supposed to be appointed by the Nobles just Meredith was refusing any put forth including the Champion. Nothing to do with being their faction choice. Even if you're pro-templar she turns on you after all.
#36
Posté 26 août 2011 - 05:08
Harid wrote...
If we are going to act like Varric's story was complete bull****, i.e. Dallas level "It was all a dream," then as disappointing as Dragon Age 2 was, I think I would be done with Bioware altogether.
That's a cop out no matter what you say. Everything else was largely resolved in my post that you missed.
Providing an intelligent and pro-active Hawke is, in my humble opinion, better than keeping one who seems lazy and simply stands idly by and let's dangerous people go. As for your comments, it's not clear why a pro-templar Hawke has left, but I'd imagine if Hawke has the opportunity to be a leader to the mages since he's a hero for protecting hundreds of men, women, and children, then he should be able to rise to the occassion, instead of doing nothing.
I don't know about you, but I'm very, very tired of Hawke doing nothing.
#37
Posté 26 août 2011 - 05:13
Be careful though. The title is nothing without no meaning. We saw this with the title of Champion, we saw that with the title of Viscount. Hawk is nothing in DA2, he doesn't matter, we need him to kill ass not to think., his opinion,he gives as well but who cares. No one is listening.LobselVith8 wrote...
Harid wrote...
Then what of the people who don't want to lead anything? I sided with the Templars, but if I had the oppurtunity, I would take the chance to cull both ranks and put both in line to be the savior of the people, rather than a leader in two fronts I could not literally care less about.
Nothing in my OP suggests that players who sided with the mages should be forced to be a leader to the mages. I recommended this as a possible option for a pro-mage Hawke in a post-Kirkwall Right of Annulment DLC. It's no different than if the DLC where to acknowledge that a pro-templar Hawke is currently the Viscount of Kirkwall.
If you must have the title of leader it is for anything other than to satisfy the ego. It must mean real choices, real meaning compared to others players's Hawk. And I doubt that we will find it in the next Dlc.
What would be the difference between the leader of mages, and the defender of Mages ?
Modifié par Sylvianus, 26 août 2011 - 05:14 .
#38
Posté 26 août 2011 - 05:14
LobselVith8 wrote...
Harid wrote...
If we are going to act like Varric's story was complete bull****, i.e. Dallas level "It was all a dream," then as disappointing as Dragon Age 2 was, I think I would be done with Bioware altogether.
That's a cop out no matter what you say. Everything else was largely resolved in my post that you missed.
Providing an intelligent and pro-active Hawke is, in my humble opinion, better than keeping one who seems lazy and simply stands idly by and let's dangerous people go. As for your comments, it's not clear why a pro-templar Hawke has left, but I'd imagine if Hawke has the opportunity to be a leader to the mages since he's a hero for protecting hundreds of men, women, and children, then he should be able to rise to the occassion, instead of doing nothing.
I don't know about you, but I'm very, very tired of Hawke doing nothing.
I think that pro-templar Hawke left because the templars rebelled. Hawke is vicount at the mercy of the templars, make no illusion about that. When the templar became rouge it changed things dramatically for Vicount Hawke.
#39
Posté 26 août 2011 - 05:14
LobselVith8 wrote...
Harid wrote...
If we are going to act like Varric's story was complete bull****, i.e. Dallas level "It was all a dream," then as disappointing as Dragon Age 2 was, I think I would be done with Bioware altogether.
That's a cop out no matter what you say. Everything else was largely resolved in my post that you missed.
Providing an intelligent and pro-active Hawke is, in my humble opinion, better than keeping one who seems lazy and simply stands idly by and let's dangerous people go. As for your comments, it's not clear why a pro-templar Hawke has left, but I'd imagine if Hawke has the opportunity to be a leader to the mages since he's a hero for protecting hundreds of men, women, and children, then he should be able to rise to the occassion, instead of doing nothing.
I don't know about you, but I'm very, very tired of Hawke doing nothing.
In my opinion you can't fix Hawke's sitting on his/her ass in a DLC. S/he sat on his ass the entire game. S/he sat on his/her ass when named Champion. Not sitting on his/her ass in a dlc will still leave people believing he sat on his ass, especially when DLC and Bioware generally means nothing major occurs in the sequel anyway.
They are better off moving onto the next and lampshading his laziness going forward.
#40
Posté 26 août 2011 - 05:18
esper wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Harid wrote...
If we are going to act like Varric's story was complete bull****, i.e. Dallas level "It was all a dream," then as disappointing as Dragon Age 2 was, I think I would be done with Bioware altogether.
That's a cop out no matter what you say. Everything else was largely resolved in my post that you missed.
Providing an intelligent and pro-active Hawke is, in my humble opinion, better than keeping one who seems lazy and simply stands idly by and let's dangerous people go. As for your comments, it's not clear why a pro-templar Hawke has left, but I'd imagine if Hawke has the opportunity to be a leader to the mages since he's a hero for protecting hundreds of men, women, and children, then he should be able to rise to the occassion, instead of doing nothing.
I don't know about you, but I'm very, very tired of Hawke doing nothing.
I think that pro-templar Hawke left because the templars rebelled. Hawke is vicount at the mercy of the templars, make no illusion about that. When the templar became rouge it changed things dramatically for Vicount Hawke.
What mercy? The Templars are rebelling? The Templars are afraid and respect Hawke. They deign leadership to him/her. Cullen is no Meredith. With the Templars rebelling, how would they maintain control of Kirkwall? They haven't maintained control of bloody Orlais. That's why they are looking for you in the first place.
I just don't get it. This is clearly, like the Warden a clear case of the hero vanishing into the sunset. We know this. This is why he/she should not lead the Templars or the mages. When has Hawke exhibited leadership?
#41
Posté 26 août 2011 - 05:23
Harid wrote...
esper wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Harid wrote...
If we are going to act like Varric's story was complete bull****, i.e. Dallas level "It was all a dream," then as disappointing as Dragon Age 2 was, I think I would be done with Bioware altogether.
That's a cop out no matter what you say. Everything else was largely resolved in my post that you missed.
Providing an intelligent and pro-active Hawke is, in my humble opinion, better than keeping one who seems lazy and simply stands idly by and let's dangerous people go. As for your comments, it's not clear why a pro-templar Hawke has left, but I'd imagine if Hawke has the opportunity to be a leader to the mages since he's a hero for protecting hundreds of men, women, and children, then he should be able to rise to the occassion, instead of doing nothing.
I don't know about you, but I'm very, very tired of Hawke doing nothing.
I think that pro-templar Hawke left because the templars rebelled. Hawke is vicount at the mercy of the templars, make no illusion about that. When the templar became rouge it changed things dramatically for Vicount Hawke.
What mercy? The Templars are rebelling? The Templars are afraid and respect Hawke. They deign leadership to him/her. Cullen is no Meredith. With the Templars rebelling, how would they maintain control of Kirkwall? They haven't maintained control of bloody Orlais. That's why they are looking for you in the first place.
I just don't get it. This is clearly, like the Warden a clear case of the hero vanishing into the sunset. We know this. This is why he/she should not lead the Templars or the mages. When has Hawke exhibited leadership?
Oh... I don't deny Bioware like their vanishing heroes. (They really need to stop doing that), but Hawke only gets to be leader because the templars litterarly bows before him/her. When the templars goes rouge and Cullen being no Meridith, it is clear that it must shift the balance of power in Kirkwall and some ungrateful Noble with ambition might just begang to plot to overthrow Hawke. Three years is plenty time to forget that they are supposed to be greatefull, Humans have turned on their heroes faster than that.
#42
Posté 26 août 2011 - 05:30
#43
Posté 26 août 2011 - 05:57
Xilizhra wrote...
Why don't you believe that they can be roleplayed in? I've incorporated most of those into my own Hawke.
because it would require me to handwave away so much in the game, from Hawkes actions (or inaction), to responses/conversations with other people, how they deal with or interact with companions, ect. Hawke never shows, or is given the in game option to show, any semblance of long term planning or long term thinking, nor shows any inititive. Hawke only reacts, and little else in gameplay, choices, and story show me Hawke is anything else. They are too much a set and limited character. Even the three personalities of Hawke are very limited, and none really give me any satisfactory depth to make a character that is more than 2 dimensional.
I can't even roleplay off screen, inbetween acts, a more active Hawke, because onscreen, I go right back to a Hawke who is good at raising body counts and makin money, but little else. You might be able to imagine a Hawke who is more than just a sickly sweet/smart ass/****** killing machine, but I have not. Nor is Hawke a very believable leader of anything for me. A symbol and a fighting champion, yeah. But a leader? No. Not for me. Hence, I'd rather the leader of a mage rebellion to be someone I find a convincing leader.
#44
Posté 26 août 2011 - 06:05
#45
Posté 26 août 2011 - 06:10
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 août 2011 - 06:13 .
#46
Posté 26 août 2011 - 06:19
Hawke disappears no matter what so having him/her be Sarah not John Connor makes sense to me. They're not the leader of the rebellion but the person who inspires them.
#47
Posté 26 août 2011 - 06:20
You're evil.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
For the mages' sake, I hope not.
#48
Posté 26 août 2011 - 06:21
Ok, so Gavorn gives you the papers and tells you to deliver them to "inform" Dace and Helmi that Harrowmont is cheating them. You don't have to be a native of orzammar, or even that bright, to guess that Gavorn is shifty and up to something. If the Warden feels strongly enough about this, they can take the papers to the Shaperate, have them looked over, and after careful examination, the Shaper tells you the documents were altered. And you can even rat out Vartag in the process, if you wish. It doesn't really effect anything in game at that point, but its a choice. regardless, now that you have proof from the horses mouth that Vartag is playing dirty, you can go back, call him out on it. He admits it, but tells you something similar to "Welcome to Dwarven politics 101, deal with it, or get out of my face and I'll find someone who can". Finding out about the forged documents doesn't change any signifgant event in the game, but its an example of where a Warden can take an inititive, show some intelligence, and at least walk into something with their eyes wide open.
With Anders and his magic bomb, its either "ok, I'll help you" or "****** off, i won't help you." There is no option to either accept, then maybe do a little footwork yourself to find out what he's really up to, since he's being a little too secretive. Hawke could have gone to the Gallows or City Archives, and maybe asked someone in the know if they know anything about sele petre, or have ever heard of any Tevinter potions or spells that can cure possesion Hell, Hawke might even believe Anders fully that Anders is telling the truth, but wants to either make sure Anders is not going to mistakenly poison himself. Or, might think "wow, potions that cure possesion? Maybe if these were more widespread, the fear of mages and abominations could be lessesened if it becomes routinely cureable".
It would not change the inevitable if Hawke were able to find out. Anders could become angry, or he might fess up, or continue to deny it, disappear, and decide he has to carry out his "balm" plan on his own. The point isn't to change Anders behavior, the point would be that I am able to actually play a Hawke that doesn't feel like an apathetic moron, hostile b*tch, or a complete tool. Trying to shop Anders out to Elthina or Cullen don't even count, because the reactions are not only laughable, but shopping Anders is something that a pro-revolution, pro mage Hawke might be reluctant to do, especially if they are lovers.
This is just one example. There are many points in the game where Hawke is unable to show similar kinds of inititive and intelligence. It's either yes, no maybe, or really don't give a f*ck. Little in between.
#49
Posté 26 août 2011 - 07:51
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
For the mages' sake, I hope not.
I'm with this guy.
#50
Posté 26 août 2011 - 08:00





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