maxernst wrote...
@Skadi, that's an excellent example of how the Warden is much less of a mindless errand-runner than Hawke. Thanks.
Xilizhra wrote...
sided with the Templars
Ah, yes, mages aren't people.savior of the people
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 août 2011 - 08:23 .
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
An example of Hawke not being able to show much intelligence, perception, or inititive, is Anders bombing plot. And for comparison, I'll give you a different parealell in Origins: when you get offered to work for Bhelen, when Vartag Gavorn asks you to delivers the forged documents to houses Dace and Helmi.
Ok, so Gavorn gives you the papers and tells you to deliver them to "inform" Dace and Helmi that Harrowmont is cheating them. You don't have to be a native of orzammar, or even that bright, to guess that Gavorn is shifty and up to something. If the Warden feels strongly enough about this, they can take the papers to the Shaperate, have them looked over, and after careful examination, the Shaper tells you the documents were altered. And you can even rat out Vartag in the process, if you wish. It doesn't really effect anything in game at that point, but its a choice. regardless, now that you have proof from the horses mouth that Vartag is playing dirty, you can go back, call him out on it. He admits it, but tells you something similar to "Welcome to Dwarven politics 101, deal with it, or get out of my face and I'll find someone who can". Finding out about the forged documents doesn't change any signifgant event in the game, but its an example of where a Warden can take an inititive, show some intelligence, and at least walk into something with their eyes wide open.
With Anders and his magic bomb, its either "ok, I'll help you" or "****** off, i won't help you." There is no option to either accept, then maybe do a little footwork yourself to find out what he's really up to, since he's being a little too secretive. Hawke could have gone to the Gallows or City Archives, and maybe asked someone in the know if they know anything about sele petre, or have ever heard of any Tevinter potions or spells that can cure possesion Hell, Hawke might even believe Anders fully that Anders is telling the truth, but wants to either make sure Anders is not going to mistakenly poison himself. Or, might think "wow, potions that cure possesion? Maybe if these were more widespread, the fear of mages and abominations could be lessesened if it becomes routinely cureable".
It would not change the inevitable if Hawke were able to find out. Anders could become angry, or he might fess up, or continue to deny it, disappear, and decide he has to carry out his "balm" plan on his own. The point isn't to change Anders behavior, the point would be that I am able to actually play a Hawke that doesn't feel like an apathetic moron, hostile b*tch, or a complete tool. Trying to shop Anders out to Elthina or Cullen don't even count, because the reactions are not only laughable, but shopping Anders is something that a pro-revolution, pro mage Hawke might be reluctant to do, especially if they are lovers.
This is just one example. There are many points in the game where Hawke is unable to show similar kinds of inititive and intelligence. It's either yes, no maybe, or really don't give a f*ck. Little in between.
Xilizhra wrote...
Then your dickHawke can just be viscount in your game.Given that my Hawke sided with the Templars, I don't think it would be plausible without invalidating the choice that some people have made.
LobselVith8 wrote...
Which is why I'd prefer for Varric's "Story Hawke" to be dismissed and for "real Hawke" to be addressed as an intelligent and proactive protagonist, but given Legacy, that (unfortunately) doesn't seem like it'll happen.
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
And I personally don't buy varric's "Story Hawke" vs "real Hawke as difference. Bioware's blaming the dwarf's unreliable story telling for writing mediocre, uninspired story and half assed execution is just beyond.....lame.<_<
Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 août 2011 - 11:26 .
Xilizhra wrote...
Regarding proactive decisions...
What about wiping out those street gangs?
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 août 2011 - 11:30 .
I do think the game can be interpreted as a political awakening for mage Hawke so yeah I'd like to see that as well.LobselVith8 wrote...
I've noticed with the pro-templar run, that Hawke can become Viscount and is a hero to the templars, but throughout a pro-mage run (at least with an apostate Hawke) Anders comments that Hawke should be a leader of the mages, and Hawke's escape from Kirkwall does present the opportunity for Hawke to assume a leadership role to mages who see him as a hero for protecting the denizens of the Gallows from Meredith. Aside from the problems with the narrative in Dragon Age 2, I'd like Hawke to be allowed to take a stand with the mages and follow Anders' advice by leading the mages against the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.
As have I.Xilizhra wrote...
Why don't you believe that they can be roleplayed in? I've incorporated most of those into my own Hawke.But this is not something I can envision Hawke doing believably or capably, unless they do an overhaul on the character. Hawke's role would probably be best as a symbol, since their name is supposedly now a rallying cry for mages everywhere. They can be a symbol and a powerful image for the rebellion, but you need more than that for a reveolution to be successful. You need brains, cunning, ambition, inititive, planning, resourcefulness, and the will to make it happen. these are not characteristics I see in Hawke, nor do I think they can really be roleplayed in believably, unless, as I said, a major overhaul of Hawke's character is done.
Well it could be the kick in the pants that forces him to be more pro-active, like I said it could be his political awakening.TobiTobsen wrote...
Hawke as a leader? That would totally ruin his concept of waiting for **** to happen and than failing at preventing it.
Modifié par Morroian, 26 août 2011 - 11:36 .
Well my role playing/headcanon is that Hawke is intelligent and resourceful but is comfortable and doesn't get the proper motivation to make a difference until the events of the endgame. In this he/she is a more normal person than is typically found in a game.Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
because it would require me to handwave away so much in the game, from Hawkes actions (or inaction), to responses/conversations with other people, how they deal with or interact with companions, ect. Hawke never shows, or is given the in game option to show, any semblance of long term planning or long term thinking, nor shows any inititive.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They could have been involved in a sidequest or sub-plot, but they were not and their presence or absence is completely inconsequential minus gold and xp. It's like saying looting is a proactive decision.
Harid wrote...
Dragon age 2 not being 'epic' was not the reason it was disappointing. . .people really need to stop conflating those two issues.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They could have been involved in a sidequest or sub-plot, but they were not and their presence or absence is completely inconsequential minus gold and xp. It's like saying looting is a proactive decision.
Maybe have Hawke overhear about the increase in crime from the citizens, and when you go into the areas at night instead of the companions saying "Go kill some baddies!", Hawke says "Time to clean up!".
Or have an entire quest tree where Hawke asks Aveline if there's anything he can do to make Kirkwall a better place, and she says there's been an increase in crime lately. Then Hawke can either accept or refuse.
I'd also keep the Friends of Red Jenny rewards.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They could have been involved in a sidequest or sub-plot, but they were not and their presence or absence is completely inconsequential minus gold and xp. It's like saying looting is a proactive decision.
Maybe have Hawke overhear about the increase in crime from the citizens, and when you go into the areas at night instead of the companions saying "Go kill some baddies!", Hawke says "Time to clean up!".
Or have an entire quest tree where Hawke asks Aveline if there's anything he can do to make Kirkwall a better place, and she says there's been an increase in crime lately. Then Hawke can either accept or refuse.
I'd also keep the Friends of Red Jenny rewards.
Or have the option to side with them, like in Awakening.
Yea, I want the option to make a crime boss Hawke.
Unfortunately though, I got the distinct feeling throughout the game that the devs were trying to make us anti mage, so I cannot see them giving Hawke the opportunity to be any sort of mage champion / hero / leader ...
Macropodmum wrote...
I always thought it would have been nice to have an achievement opposite Viscount for those of us who refuse to side with the templars
. Other people can do it if they want and I'll just nod my head and post a clapping gif.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They do not need to concern themselves with who people side with in the first place. Not to the point where they overkill.
They just need to make both sides somewhat reasonable, and to give reasons to side with each. Who most people end up siding with should be irrelevent.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They do not need to concern themselves with who people side with in the first place. Not to the point where they overkill.
They just need to make both sides somewhat reasonable, and to give reasons to side with each. Who most people end up siding with should be irrelevent.
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