55 réponses à ce sujet

[whywhywhywhy]

Many people dislike Liara greatly from what I can tell because she's blue and not able to be killed in ME2.  Liara was off on her own storywise and because of that could not die on the SM mission.  The VS not chosen to stay behind on Virmire has plot armor as well they simply show up on Hoizon fight with Shepard then leave for th unknown.  At least you have an idea what Liara's doing but the VS.....nothing.  Though the VS gets more hate over Horizon then the plot Armor hate.

Now that's another topic I simply addressed it to make a fair comparison to Joker.  This guy has the ultimate plot armor on both ships others get blown up, hurt or killed.  One ship destroyed the other crashed and nothing happens to him at all, he never sees combat because of his disease yet impacts that jar the ship around doesn't even injure him.  His safety is the reason Shepard died yet everyone Loves Joker.  I guess Joker gets the ultimate plot armored cockpit, I never imagined sarcasm as a survival instinct.  Is anyone as untouchable as Joker ? 

Other then being voiced by Seth Green I see nothing good about Joker he might have been the best pilot in his class but I doubt he's unreplaceable.

Discuss.

[BatmanPWNS]

If that man died who's gonna drive the Normandy?

[MegaBadExample]

EDI?

I don't trust her though, I think she's a baby reaper.

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 26 août 2011 - 11:15 .

[JoeLaTurkey]

Yeah, he's the guy driving the main character's home, so the armour can be forgiven.

I get the feeling the moment we enter the final battle, that plot armour's coming off.

[whywhywhywhy]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If that man died who's gonna drive the Normandy?

He's replaceable he's only a pilot and a fragile one at that.  Joker cares more about the ship then people.  I'd gladly replace him if possible for that reason alone.

JoeLaTurkey wrote...

Yeah, he's the guy driving the main
character's home, so the armour can be forgiven.

I get the
feeling the moment we enter the final battle, that plot armour's coming
off.

Does that extend to the fact the main Character died because of him ?  I'm having a hard time believing plot armor as a cause for character hate because Joker should be despised.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 26 août 2011 - 11:23 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

But then, Joker isn't a squaddie, just an NPC. If you are talking about it this way, then we can name several characters who have impenetrable plot armour.

[whywhywhywhy]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

But then, Joker isn't a squaddie, just an NPC. If you are talking about it this way, then we can name several characters who have impenetrable plot armour.

Joker isn't a npc he has a single playable level in me2. Joker is part of the crew if he's considered a npc then so is the rest of the crew. 

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 26 août 2011 - 11:37 .

[PauseforEffect]

Actually, Joker can be killed during his personal mission when the crew is being kidnapped. Even though it's a game over, technically, it's still the end for Joker in that instance (and a horrible one at that).
I don't see a need for an apology from Joker mainly because in his own way he's atoning by helping Shepard on a suicide mission. He does get his ribs broken and more than a few fractures by the time EDI's unshackled, hence his comment, "that's what pills are for."
Yes, Cerberus could have found a different pilot, but they wanted someone familiar for Shepard. And even if Shepard's dead for saving Joker, that was Shepard's fault for rescuing him. It was just as likely to end with them both dead, but as people from the military frequently say on this forum, "you don't leave people behind"

[RhiPanda]

Yeah Joker is needed to fly the Normandy cause he is the best at what he does, also where did you get that he cares more about the ship than the people from?

[whywhywhywhy]

PrimalEden wrote...

Actually, Joker can be killed during his personal mission when the crew is being kidnapped. Even though it's a game over, technically, it's still the end for Joker in that instance (and a horrible one at that).

So taken as a storyline and not a game would joker fail ?  In a "canon" run would joker be alive or dead at the end ? 

PrimalEden wrote...
I don't see a need for an apology from Joker mainly because in his own way he's atoning by helping Shepard on a suicide mission.

I disagree.  But how about a "thank you for saving my life at your expense" comment ?  

PrimalEden wrote...
He does get his ribs broken and more than a few fractures by the time EDI's unshackled, hence his comment, "that's what pills are for."

Your absolutely right I forgot about that.  He survived the crash with broken ribs but the Ship that was destroyed he came through without nothing but the pain from when shepard grabbed him.

PrimalEden wrote...
Yes, Cerberus could have found a different pilot, but they wanted someone familiar for Shepard. And even if Shepard's dead for saving Joker, that was Shepard's fault for rescuing him. It was just as likely to end with them both dead, but as people from the military frequently say on this forum, "you don't leave people behind"

I disagree with you and agree with the military view.  I will concede this much if he just grabbed him and left he might have survived.  But What was Joker in the cockpit doing ?  Trying to save lives ? No.  He wanted to save the ship.  And he's not so great of a pilot if he couldn't avoid the attack and get away.

edit:
But everyone loves Joker.

RhiPanda wrote...

Yeah Joker is needed to fly the Normandy
cause he is the best at what he does, also where did you get that he
cares more about the ship than the people from?

Best but he got shot down rather easily, best but he curved up arcing back around towards the exploding collector ship instead of escaping the shockwave/impact from the explosion.  At the beginning of the game he was trying to save the ship, at the powered down collector ship he told Shepard and company to hurry up because he's not losing another normandy.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 26 août 2011 - 11:58 .

[BatmanPWNS]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If that man died who's gonna drive the Normandy?

He's replaceable he's only a pilot and a fragile one at that.  Joker cares more about the ship then people.  I'd gladly replace him if possible for that reason alone.

It's just done to make us laugh by Bioware. Plus if you really wanna see his true feelings then go die on the suicide mission and it'll show that he actually cares about Shepard.

[whywhywhywhy]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

It's just done to make us laugh by Bioware. Plus if you really wanna see his true feelings then go die on the suicide mission and it'll show that he actually cares about Shepard.

Not saying he doesn't care for shepard or the crew but that he comes across caring about the ship more.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 27 août 2011 - 12:00 .

[RhiPanda]

Maybe his character is meant to be bad at showing affection to people and better at showing it to inanimate objects?

edit: Like a ship cause he couldn't walk before but could fly so it means more to him or something?

Modifié par RhiPanda, 27 août 2011 - 12:07 .

[Ruathrar]

If you lose the ship you lose the entire crew. Ask yourself, WWSD?

[whywhywhywhy]

Ruathrar wrote...

If you lose the ship you lose the entire crew. Ask yourself, WWSD?

pilot it.

[whywhywhywhy]

RhiPanda wrote...

Maybe his character is meant to be bad at showing affection to people and better at showing it to inanimate objects?

edit: Like a ship cause he couldn't walk before but could fly so it means more to him or something?

Honestly, I don't really care if he has issues showing affection to people.  How about concern ?  In times of extreme trial his concern is for the ship again and again.  And if the bit about not walking is or could be true all the more reason to replace him.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 27 août 2011 - 01:50 .

[Phoenix92254]

I'm going to continue to disagree on two of your points. 1) Joker does not care more for the ship than people. He crash lands the Normandy on the Collector Base during the SM so the crew can stop the collectors and possibly save the remaining crew members taken. He also gives EDI control of the Normandy so he can warn Shepard when the collectors attack the Normandy and take the crew. 2) He is the pilot because he is an awesome pilot. It's not a matter of opinion it is stated in the game that Joker is one of the best Alliance pilots.

[KingNothing125]

I dislike Person A, and am therefore annoyed that they haven't been killed off yet, and am therefore applying the "plot armor" label incorrectly!

rawr!!

The only person in either game who has "plot armor" is Miranda, because she survives leading the fire teams even if she is not loyal. Any other application of the "plot armor" label is incorrect.

Modifié par KingNothing125, 27 août 2011 - 03:48 .

[ladyvader]

KingNothing125 wrote...

I dislike Person A, and am therefore annoyed that they haven't been killed off yet, and am therefore applying the "plot armor" label incorrectly!

rawr!!

The only person in either game who has "plot armor" is Miranda, because she survives leading the fire teams even if she is not loyal. Any other application of the "plot armor" label is incorrect.

Miranda will die if you take her with you to the final fight.

[KingNothing125]

ladyvader wrote...

Miranda will die if you take her with you to the final fight.

I know that; I'm saying the "plot armor" label gets thrown around when it shouldn't. If a character survives when they shouldn't, like non-loyal Miranda leading fire teams, that's "plot armor".

Someone always surviving just in general is not "plot armor". If it was, you could apply the label to tons of people, which is just dumb. Someone always surviving is just "plot".

Modifié par KingNothing125, 27 août 2011 - 03:57 .

[Alexnssilent]

Here's the thing....you don't F with Joker.

[TheLeetSkweet]

i'm thinking that towards the end of ME3 joker will have a "i have the mass" martyr moment on a reaper with the normandy, telling shepard to make it count. it would be extremely sad, but that would be and amazing way to send him out with a bang. shepard then starts gunning down countless reaper soldiers screaming 'i'm ready! how 'bout you!"

[PauseforEffect]

Well no, Joker is still alive if you want to finish your Shepard's playthrough. But you do get to see him die nonetheless. Unlike Liara. And believe me, I've tried looking for ways to see if she can die. She can't. In any way. Thpppth. (No, it's nothing personal against Liara; I just resent characters that get special treatment over others)
Hathur would be best to ask in explaining why people develop such a strong feeling for the ship they sail or fly in. Mainly due to awareness that the hunk of metal you're piloting is all that stands between you and silent, terrifying void. Who knows, it's just as likely thanks to Joker keeping the Normandy stable enough for everyone alive to get off the ship instead of veering off into the nearby planet's atmosphere. Especially since they got sucker blasted by a vessel they thought they were cloaked from.
In a way, there is acknowledgement that Shepard's death affected Joker.
"They're not all bad. Saved your life. Let me fly."
Maybe the Alliance gave Joker hell for costing them their first human Spectre. Maybe that's why they removed him as a pilot. The point being, the first reason Joker states why Cerberus is not all bad is because they bring your character back.
And yes, while Joker does an awful job socializing, that's pretty much what he admits when asked about upgrades. One of the main reasons he'd be attached to the Normandy is because it allows him to be the most useful to Shepard.
You can also watch the most awful ending where Shepard dies at the end with Joker desperately holding onto the Commander. And from providing cover fire himself no less.

[whywhywhywhy]

Phoenix92254 wrote...

I'm going to continue to disagree on two of your points. 1) Joker does not care more for the ship than people.

I agre to disagree.

Phoenix92254 wrote...
He crash lands the Normandy on the Collector Base during the SM so the crew can stop the collectors and possibly save the remaining crew members taken.

No, he crashed landed because he arced backwards circling too close to the exploding Collector ship and the force of the explosion caused him to lose control of the ship.

Phoenix92254 wrote...
He also gives EDI control of the Normandy so he can warn Shepard when the collectors attack the Normandy and take the crew.

This wasn't a point of mine but it's another failure of Joker and by extension EDI, neither made sure the Reaper hardware was safe to install and caused that whole thing.

Phoenix92254 wrote...
2) He is the pilot because he is an awesome pilot. It's not a matter of opinion it is stated in the game that Joker is one of the best Alliance pilots.

Then the alliance has horrible pilots.  He got shot down and crashed the ship on a critical mission.

edit:

KingNothing125 wrote...

I dislike Person A, and am
therefore annoyed that they haven't been killed off yet, and am
therefore applying the "plot armor" label incorrectly!

rawr!!

The
only person in either game who has "plot armor" is Miranda, because she
survives leading the fire teams even if she is not loyal. Any other
application of the "plot armor" label is incorrect.

It just means she has exceptional leadership skills, given she's 2nd in command.  As someone explained if she's taken to the final mission she dies.  Joker has no threat from anything, he lives through it all and he's the most fragile of anyone.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 27 août 2011 - 08:23 .