70 réponses à ce sujet

[Eternal Phoenix]

Recently there was a topic on this board which CONCERNED me greatly. It was about NPCs in cities/towns in the Dragon Age series. We know most of the NPCs are lifeless in Bioware games but what striked me was how many people actually seemed to not care. I don't understand this. Bioware are superb when giving details elsewhere, look at the enviroments in Dragon Age: Origins, they look so good and even atmospheric but then we see the NPCs who simply stand in the same spot, never moving. Not only does this remove immersion with the game but it ruins the atmosphere of entering a city which should feel like it's brimming with life. Some people said that this feature is not important but it is important for an RPG which should be about immersion. There are plenty of games that have this feature nowadays. Even modules for NWN have this feature where NPCs even go to sleep at night time.

The static NPCs in Dragon Age 2 are what really ruined Kirkwall (along with the ninjas on the roofs all waiting for Gabriel Hawke while the guards turned a blind eye...) and gave it a feeling of lifelessness. I understand that future Dragon Age games will most likely go the route of Origins again (i.e. roaming a country and not just a city) but the feature of NPCs moving about and/or having a schedule can still be implemented in the cities/towns/villages/camps that you get to visit and explore. Such a feature really does add a feeling of immersion. 

And for those saying that this feature is trivial because it doesn't effect gameplay, then I guess all the details in enviroments are trivial too right? People complained about the enviroments of Dragon Age 2 because they were recycled and lacked detail wheras the enviroments of DA:O were praised. Entering Ostagar for the first time was amazing simply due to the level of detail it had. The enviroments of DA:O immersed you with the game just like having NPCs moving about and performing tasks would immerse you. If you say that moving NPCs are trivial and shouldn't be in the game, then I guess all the other little details and features - not releated to gameplay - shouldn't be included too.

Having NPCs with schedules in Dragon Age 3 shouldn't be hard for Bioware - a rich company with talented developers - to implement and it will add so much more immersion to towns and cities. Who else agrees? Do you want to see NPCs with schedules (or at least see them moving about more)?

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 27 août 2011 - 02:31 .

[Zanallen]

I don't care. The reason being is that Bioware focuses on building modular worlds. There is no day night cycle, no shifting weather patterns and you are rarely in a populated area long enough for the static NPCs to become bothersome (For me at least). I want Bioware to use time of day, weather and NPC position to build the atmosphere for the specific scene.

[eroeru]

Though I didn't feel Origins to be lacking in this department, as every NPC had at least some believability to what they were doing or where positioned, this could possibly be better, of course.

But making NPC's move and stuff would be quite difficult to play off realistically, and the more difficult when graphics are better, so I'm not quite sure if I'd want them to put too much effort into it, if that means cutting corners on other stuff. NPC's of Dragon Age 2 were horrendous though - from the details to the fact I could walk through most of them. So in comparison to that, NPC's really need more life to them.

[HopHazzard]

More active NPC's would definitely make things more lively, but it's not high on my priority list. If they've got time after they build all unique environments, I encourage them to tackle the problem though.

[Eternal Phoenix]

@eroeru

The Witcher 2 did it (I'm not a fan of the Witcher series BTW but I can praise it for how it has NPCs with schedules) and the graphics were quite good in that game. Assassin's Creed does it also where you have more than 100+ people on screen walking about. I'll admit, NPCs in Origins did feel more believable than NPCs in DA2 as they were all real models (not models you could walk through) with their own faces and they were often doing something but they were still static.

Oh and then there's Two Worlds 2 which did it like Assassin's Creed where you had people walking about and even interacting with stalls. It's not hard or difficulty to pull off and the engine has nothing to do with it. As I said, modules created for NWN have this feature and for a company like Bioware (which has the talent and skills), creating more realistic NPCs can't be a challenge. I don't believe static NPCs is a game killer in a game where the combat, story and characters are fantastic (talking about DA:O here) but it would help to add to the immersion and DA2 certainly needed non-static NPCs considering you're running about in the same city all the time.

[whykikyouwhy]

My immersion wasn't disturbed much by the NPCs in DA2. You had some sense of schedule with the night and day maps (no shopkeepers in lowtown and hightown at night, for example). I would have liked to have seen some more movement, sure, maybe some random interactions amongst the NPCs that changed per act, or at various trigger points. I mean, in DA:O, you had that same snooty lady standing outside of a stand in Denerim throughout the majority of the game, being rather unfriendly if you clicked on her. It's not a major thing for me - but some extras would be nice (who would complain about extras?).

[Atakuma]

Elton John is dead wrote...

@eroeru

The Witcher 2 did it

Not really. All the NPCs in TW2 either stood in the exact same place or walked down a set path repeatedly, unless it rained. I do wish the NPCs did a little bit more in Dragon age, like having people in the tavern order drinks or something like that.

Modifié par Atakuma, 27 août 2011 - 05:26 .

[Wulfram]

More mobile "extras" would have been nice, to give a sense of a living city - just having people moving from one entrance to another. Making plot relevant NPCs move about isn't worth the hassle.

[TEWR]

http://social.biowar...index/7691016/1


Don't want to retype all of them

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 août 2011 - 05:32 .

[TheMadCat]

Zanallen wrote...

I don't care. The reason being is that Bioware focuses on building modular worlds. There is no day night cycle, no shifting weather patterns and you are rarely in a populated area long enough for the static NPCs to become bothersome (For me at least). I want Bioware to use time of day, weather and NPC position to build the atmosphere for the specific scene.

Which would be fine if scenes lasted a few minutes, but they're don't. BioWare games aren't (Yet atleast) a culmination of cinematic short seqences where everything needs to be set a certain way to create a necessary atmosphere. When you're spending some hours in a particular area atmosphere is derived more from a living breathing world than it is specific details which never change and the illusion is gone 15 minutes in.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 27 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[Elywyn]

I agree, I want that. So basicly, you want -we want- more reality in DA Franchise. We saw lame unrealistic events at DA:2. Blowing limbs, awesome buttons, templars with no intelligence. I'm waiting much more realistic games from Bioware than that. And in that more realistic game also NPCs must be more living beings.

Modifié par Elywyn, 27 août 2011 - 06:07 .

[Monica21]

 I'm too busy to notice who's doing what in Kirkwall and I don't really care enough to want them to have schedules. There are night/day maps, so clearly shopkeepers are indoors or sleeping. 

I think "ooo, we have to make sure that <insert completely random NPC who you have no interaction with during the entire game> looks busy during the four times the PC will enter that area" are really the last thing I want Bioware to be thinking about for DA3.

[TEWR]

How can I roleplay a character in a world full of people if those people don't seem to be alive? This is something that needs to be done. Maybe not all at once, but a steady improvement.

Though Bioware shouldn't do anything with Val Royeaux until they can get it to fit the descriptions given by Leliana and Liselle perfectly.

[Bryy_Miller]

I've never understood why scheduled, scripted events are so important. It's not a living world at all.

[Zanallen]

TheMadCat wrote...

Which would be fine if scenes lasted a few minutes, but they're don't. BioWare games aren't (Yet atleast) a culmination of cinematic short seqences where everything needs to be set a certain way to create a necessary atmosphere. When you're spending some hours in a particular area atmosphere is derived more from a living breathing world than it is specific details which never change and the illusion is gone 15 minutes in.

But you usually aren't spending hours in one location. Bioware games are designed to be modular. You character goes to one location then the next and the next so on and so forth. Each area is self-contained and isolated from the others. Unless you are purposely moving slowly, you shouldn't be in any particular zone for more than an hour or so.

[TheMadCat]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

I've never understood why scheduled, scripted events are so important. It's not a living world at all.

Primarily because it adds to the feel and atmosphere of the game. You can place it low on your priority list, but you can't tell me it makes zero difference. You can't really imply that running around Kirkwall or Denerim felt the exact same as running around Vizima in The Witcher. Obviously the world is living but that doesn't mean the strive towards creating the illusion that is doesn't add to the game.

But you usually aren't spending hours in one location. Bioware games
are designed to be modular. You character goes to one location then the
next and the next so on and so forth. Each area is self-contained and
isolated from the others. Unless you are purposely moving slowly, you
shouldn't be in any particular zone for more than an hour or so.

While they're self contained that doesn't mean they aren't interlinked. Denerim is Denerim no matter what part you go to, same as Kirkwall, Orzammar, etc. I remember in Denerim and Orzammar you would spend hours in the city as whole because there was so much to do, even if you spend the bulk of your time in varying parts of the city you're almost always running thorough the various modules multiple times. One of BioWare's biggst flaws in their storytelling and world design is thestatic world, they make little attempt to portray the passage of time or the illusion of life on any scale.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 27 août 2011 - 07:35 .

[devSin]

eroeru wrote...

Though I didn't feel Origins to be lacking in this department, as every NPC had at least some believability to what they were doing or where positioned, this could possibly be better, of course.

Uh, there were almost none, and they were almost universally stationary. They also never went anywhere.

eroeru wrote...

But making NPC's move and stuff would be quite difficult to play off realistically, and the more difficult when graphics are better, so I'm not quite sure if I'd want them to put too much effort into it, if that means cutting corners on other stuff. NPC's of Dragon Age 2 were horrendous though - from the details to the fact I could walk through most of them.

Those aren't real NPCs. They're some kind of fake model, and I doubt they're running character AI. Those are the console compromise, I like to call them. They're there to make the city look populated without demanding too much power.

But you bring up a good point. If all those people were active, how would you get around? You'd be running into useless filler every two seconds.

Also, the movement here is not exactly organic. Most of the real NPCs are moving, and you can see every point of their static waypoint network as they glide between them.

[Zanallen]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

I really don't like the current NPCs either. If they did something like Oblivion that would be good, as in NPCs are set and are sometimes tied into sidequests. Definitely helped immerse me into that world.

If Bioware did open world games, I would agree with you. But they don't, so there really isn't any need for NPCs that wander around and do their own things. It might be "immersive" to some, but it is also annoying to have to track an NPC around the city in order to complete a quest.

[Zanallen]

TheMadCat wrote...

While they're self contained that doesn't mean they aren't interlinked. Denerim is Denerim no matter what part you go to, same as Kirkwall, Orzammar, etc. I remember in Denerim and Orzammar you would spend hours in the city as whole because there was so much to do, even if you spend the bulk of your time in varying parts of the city you're almost always running thorough the various modules multiple times. One of BioWare's biggst flaws in their storytelling and world design is thestatic world, they make little attempt to portray the passage of time or the illusion of life on any scale.

Denerim is Denerim. However, there is nothing really connecting the market square to the back alleys to the Pearl to Fort Drakon. They could have easily made one of the back alleys take place during night time, had thunder rumbling while inside Fort Drakon, had the battle for Denerim take place during a stormy night.

Modifié par Zanallen, 27 août 2011 - 08:02 .

[Satyricon331]

I can see its benefits for others but it's really just not a priority to me. For visuals I care much more about the art style.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Though Bioware shouldn't do anything with Val Royeaux until they can get it to fit the descriptions given by Leliana and Liselle perfectly.

Agreed! I'd say the same for Minrathous.

[Maconbar]

Boring/stationary NPCs made Kirkwall seem dead to me. If BW can't make a city that seems alive, they might as well not bother and just stick to little towns/villages.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Atakuma wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

@eroeru

The Witcher 2 did it

Not really. All the NPCs in TW2 either stood in the exact same place or walked down a set path repeatedly, unless it rained. I do wish the NPCs did a little bit more in Dragon age, like having people in the tavern order drinks or something like that.

Okay. Witcher 1 then (I only played the first) and I remember they went about even talking to one another. If not Witcher...then Oblivion (yeah, you probably all know I hate it but it did have good ideas in some places) which had a 24 hour schedule for NPCs.

And for those saying that NPCs with schedules or life is unneeded. Well it helps you relate with the world. I believe every DA game will be about SAVING a country, city or the world by stoping some evil threat. NO ONE wanted to save Kirkwall because there was NOTHING to like about it. There was only Lowtez Draken and Rexton Harrimann and you could easily tell them to just leave Kirkwall and then leave the rest of the unlikable and static NPCs to their fate (and the ninjas could die with them). Instead we're forced to save a city we don't even want to be in. lol

Put simply, seeing people LIVING THEIR LIVES would make you WANT to save these people. Seeing children playing or a women carrying a baby would also add to the level of detail and depth when you next visit the city to see these same NPCs being killed by bandits or darkspawn. The only reason why I wanted to save the world in DA:O was because there were some really likable characters and companions but having NPCs going about their daily business would have been even better.

I know some people don't like having to track an NPC down but it's not like the areas in Bioware games are large. They are linear, so it's not like you'll get lost tracking the NPC as you have to follow the quest marker in some quests anyway to find something or someone.

Level of detail helps. The music that played when you crossed the bridge to get to Ostagar was just there to immerse you with Ostagar. The land that stretched for miles was just there to immerse you with Ostagar and the guards wondering about and the messenger running about also added to the atmosphere. Ostagar felt move alive than anywhere else in Origins and you felt a battle was coming as you saw the soldiers practicing with their bows and the priest giving a speech. Bioware did it then, they could easily do it again and add a few more scripts to make NPCs even more believable.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 27 août 2011 - 08:52 .

[Dragoonlordz]

I can't be bothered to repeat what I have said on this subject before so just copy and paste from my review on this topic or aspect. That aspect being a 'living world' of which both TW2 and Skyrim tried and are trying to achieve.

Additional thoughts on future of such titles as Dragon Age regarding Immersion @ Bioware 'living world'

As stated on these forums and in interviews, you guys have stated you wanted a more cinematic experience. Surely that goes hand in hand with visual aspects such as weather system, wind and day/night cycles. All of these things increase the cinematic feel of a game. Ditto with NPC reactions to your presence and actions. I can understand that different developers start at different point with different goals but they should look at each other for things they could do better.

Those things I mentioned would make your titles better especially in a cinematic way imho. Other companies are seeing what it is you have done yourselves and that is why I gave the example of Rockstar, Bethesda, Eidos and Cryptic all implementing and improving, trying to do such things as choices/conseqeunces cause/effect systems because you did so well developing them to create a demand for such things on a bigger scale.

You can't sit back and not take note of what others are doing just because you scored a point with that system to be honest. Your stories aren't the greatest thing in gaming but the combination of your choices systems that is used to tell the story is what made you special and not the story on its own imho. Now they are trying to create such systems themselves you cannot afford to surely count on just that gameplay mechanic to keep you ahead of the rest. I am of the firm belief it is far more advisable to watch what the others are upto and try to implement the 'best' features and add it onto you own titles which might on top of that have its own special features. Tweaking the engine over time to always improve it add more stunning visuals and realism which immerses the player in that world of which you create. How can anyone seriously argue that such immersion is a bad thing for a game?

I cannot agree to any actual reason why a developer would purposefully decide against trying to build such immersion in the worlds you have created with such features that have a great affect on the aforementioned immersion. If you truly held BG as the benchmark of RPG quality then why did you move to 3D or continue to evolve the engines and visual quality of your games from back then. The same reason you evolved your games from then is the same reason you should try your best to evolve such features as the ones I have mentioned.

Bioware really has no more of a trump card than just that. Other games do specific things such as good group party combat and deep emotionally involving background and storyline for the companions in the game with or without the system I just mentioned. The fact other titles are beginning to try to emulate and incorporate such systems is a good thing and Bioware pushed it that way to a large degree with their titles. But as time progresses and the other developers get better at adding such systems Bioware can't afford to sit on it's bum and rely just on that.

Biowares stories rely on that system to tell their stories and that imho is what makes them special, the story alone or combat alone is by far not what makes their games a cut above the rest.

Just imagine how much more you could of enjoyed the game (if) a gentle breeze could blow through the grass and you see it's affects, a wind blowing through your hair and it reacting accordingly, NPCs that react not only to your presence and actions but also the weather, the weather system itself ever changing and in a immersive realistic way, NPCs that go about their lives whether you interacted with them or not and even a day and night system that changes with world and people within it acting accordingly.

The Witcher 2 titles has such things and Bioware should look at them and see if they can add any of those aspects to their own titles. How much better would the experience and immersion of been for you if they had that in DAO or DA2? It is not about whether you gleamed enough immersion from a game without it to enjoy the game. Always try to make their games better and better should be the approach and such systems do add to enjoyment and immersion in the worlds of which either company create.

My point and I feel it is a valid one is when a rival company within the same genre as Bioware (RPGs) comes up with a new mechanic or system, Bioware should examine and try to incorporate the best of those things into their games not just dismiss just because you have other things that make your games good, you should add such things to your already existing systems to make your games even better both in realism and immersion. Add such things to what may already be a great game taking it to a new level.

Examples of such features.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 août 2011 - 09:48 .

[eroeru]

I sometimes have a huge problem with scheduled-NPC'd cities in games. This happens when I feel the NPC's are robots - at the very moment I begin to see them through - the disappointment's a bit greater. Whereas with DA:O characters I didn't have disappointment because it felt I was in a picture of sorts. The game was like going through an art gallery depicting some heroic tale, with pleasant shades and subtle irony. And that I'd get to live through them via an "avatar".

I also didn't like Oblivion and part of that came from a deep feeling of "emtyness" (I found the game-title accurate - in a somewhat scary way ). The actions of the NPC's in Oblivion left a question - if they are already moving around so much in an every-day believable fashion, why then they're lifeless in many other aspects - aspects that are much harder and more worrysome to implement into a game in gigabytes, yet make a person really a person.
 
(to be more specific about the unevenness in Oblivion's personalities: they'll answer the same things to you all over and don't do anything else than follow the same work-routine all day long - unless a different command was prompted).


When I feel a game more like allegory and pictures at an exhibition, it is usually utterly rewarding, while attempts at following every-day life make my every-day life seem more mundane and nihilistic than it already is...

...edited for the lousy English...

Modifié par eroeru, 27 août 2011 - 10:43 .