70 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Zanallen wrote...

PresidentCowboy wrote...

I really don't like the current NPCs either. If they did something like Oblivion that would be good, as in NPCs are set and are sometimes tied into sidequests. Definitely helped immerse me into that world.

If Bioware did open world games, I would agree with you. But they don't, so there really isn't any need for NPCs that wander around and do their own things. It might be "immersive" to some, but it is also annoying to have to track an NPC around the city in order to complete a quest.

Not only this, but schedules and NPC AI were implemented extremely badly in Oblivion. I watched a guy rake a cobblestone street and a woman stare at a wall for five hours.

[TEWR]

Monica21 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

PresidentCowboy wrote...

I really don't like the current NPCs either. If they did something like Oblivion that would be good, as in NPCs are set and are sometimes tied into sidequests. Definitely helped immerse me into that world.

If Bioware did open world games, I would agree with you. But they don't, so there really isn't any need for NPCs that wander around and do their own things. It might be "immersive" to some, but it is also annoying to have to track an NPC around the city in order to complete a quest.

Not only this, but schedules and NPC AI were implemented extremely badly in Oblivion. I watched a guy rake a cobblestone street and a woman stare at a wall for five hours.

hey! Walls are interesting!

[eroeru]

I think that woman had exceptionally more character than any shopkeeper or count or guard... maybe she was practicing meditation, or wondering about existence and all that. Or a lunatic!

PS I've really missed the lunies of BG.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

PresidentCowboy wrote...

I really don't like the current NPCs either. If they did something like Oblivion that would be good, as in NPCs are set and are sometimes tied into sidequests. Definitely helped immerse me into that world.

If Bioware did open world games, I would agree with you. But they don't, so there really isn't any need for NPCs that wander around and do their own things. It might be "immersive" to some, but it is also annoying to have to track an NPC around the city in order to complete a quest.

Not only this, but schedules and NPC AI were implemented extremely badly in Oblivion. I watched a guy rake a cobblestone street and a woman stare at a wall for five hours.

Wait a second...what were you doing staring at a woman staring at a wall for five hours???

Maybe Oblivion is the wrong example to use. Just look at some of the mods for NWN then. There are some which have perfectly implemented a 24 hour schedule for NPCs. Having an NPC doing something is more realistic than having an NPC doing nothing. Baldur's Gate and NWN worked fine with day and night systems (sadly, NPCs still did the same thing at night time in NWN) and no one complained. I don't see why future Bioware titles couldn't have the same when it's what should be expected nowadays expecially with an RPG.

[eroeru]

Elton John is dead wrote...

@eroeru

It's not hard or difficulty to pull off and the engine has nothing to do with it.

Though I vastly agree with you, I'd like to specify this point.

Firstly, I imagined scheduled NPC's would have the more impact on disc-space when in better graphics. But yeah, this might not be significant.
More importantly, it was much easier to pull off the believability and awesomeness of NPC's in lower-res-and-hardware games - for example Baldur's Gate. This because if they aren't seemingly so realistic-like then we have less probability of disappointments a la Oblivion. NPC's and all that was believable in a full-out fantasy setting, with the eerieness and otherwordly dimension to it. The low-res and overall feel of it helped to leave "unrealistic" movements and scripts unnoticed

[Gunderic]

BioWare is more concerned about 'streamlining' its games for a wider audience. Complex NPC AI with day/night cycles would probably distract their new audience, I guess.

[Ulous]

Gunderic wrote...

BioWare is more concerned about 'streamlining' its games for a wider audience. Complex NPC AI with day/night cycles would probably distract their new audience, I guess.

That's gonads and you know it, Bioware have been doing the static NPC thing for a long time.

Modifié par Ulous, 28 août 2011 - 09:30 .

[HighMoon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

How can I roleplay a character in a world full of people if those people don't seem to be alive? This is something that needs to be done. Maybe not all at once, but a steady improvement.

Though Bioware shouldn't do anything with Val Royeaux until they can get it to fit the descriptions given by Leliana and Liselle perfectly.

Indeed. If Bioware ends up diminishing Val Royeaux (which is supposed to be one of, if not the largest city in Thedas, no?) and making it anything less than the bustling medieval metropolis it has been described as, I will be very dissatisfied. They better make it look damn impressive.  Have it bursting at the seams with people (I am reminded of the Mardi Gra level from "Hitman: Blood Money"), both the poor (peasants and elves) and bourgeois middle class, the mages in their cages, and the haughty, powdered-up nobles, strolling through the high class districts on their way to a local lord's ball party. A wide range of cultures and races, a glimpse into the fierce political "Game" (as Genitivi describes it), and, of course, no Dragon Age game would be complete without a brothel. Women with heavy make up, ornate fans and feather boa's. Sleazy men hanging around the bar. Aaah... it will be beautiful! You need to put your heart into it Bioware, I know you can do it!

And the Grand Cathedral better live up to it's name. I saw some concept art of the Divine's chamber from the dragon age anime thingie recently (you know, the one staring Cassandra?) and while it was nowhere near as decadent as I imagined, it still seemed somehow appropriate.

[LeBurns]

Sounds like you want to play a TES game. Bethesda seems to be putting a lot of effort into giving each and every NPC life in their Skyrim game.

Not sure this would really work in a DA game. Based off of BG, which was based off of TT D&D your NPC just didn't really have any life unless you chose to interact with them. DA just isn't a sandbox type of game that needs 'living' NPC's. You just interact with whom you want to for information and you move on.

[Sabotin]

If the lifecylce is limited to non-consequential (maybe non-interactible) npcs, then it's ok for me. However I do NOT want to have to look over the whole city for a specific vendor or quest giver while he's gonig arrround on a stroll.

And Kirkwall is what it is because of engine limitations, not because they wanted it to be empty. Though that's not a real excuse and I hope in the future a big city will be a big full city.

[aries1001]

Bioware is making games which focus on the story, the characters and the dialogue. I, for one, would like Bioware to continue doing this. If I want to play a game where npcs have schedules, I'll play Oblivion or Skyrim or probably one of the Githic games.

In DA2, I've seen people going to and fro something or somewhere, small banters between them when they meet each other and talk about something. Also, making npcs having a schedule means we as players would have to follow them around to get quests or to get our rewards as in Oblivion. Development
wise it also means that the devs. need to cut down on some other stuff as all this takes time - and some other thing e.g. quests and such has to go.

As for day/night cycle, I'd rather keep how it is in DA2, some quests can only gotten and completed at night while other quests can only be completed in the day time. Bioware devs. have stated (via Chris Priestly) that they do not make games that simulate life, nor are they especially interested in making sandbox, i.e. open world games a la Oblivion. And this is fine with me

[WidowMaker9394]

Keep dreaming.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes, I want NPCs and cities to feel alive. NPCs doing something helps a lot with my immersion.
Bioware cities in general are bad, and Kirkwall was horrible.

Focus on story vs focus on setting is a false dichotomy.

Atakuma wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

@eroeru

The Witcher 2 did it

Not really. All the NPCs in TW2 either stood in the exact same place or walked down a set path repeatedly, unless it rained.

Untrue. You saw blacksmiths actually being blacksmiths, you saw kids playing, you saw some smoking, you saw scribes writing, you saw fishers fishing, lumberjacks being lumberjacks, you saw villagers gathering around a fireplace at night with the elder telling them a story....etc.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 août 2011 - 06:41 .

[Monica21]

Elton John is dead wrote...
Wait a second...what were you doing staring at a woman staring at a wall for five hours???

Have you played Oblivion? It's super boring.

Maybe Oblivion is the wrong example to use. Just look at some of the mods for NWN then. There are some which have perfectly implemented a 24 hour schedule for NPCs. Having an NPC doing something is more realistic than having an NPC doing nothing. Baldur's Gate and NWN worked fine with day and night systems (sadly, NPCs still did the same thing at night time in NWN) and no one complained. I don't see why future Bioware titles couldn't have the same when it's what should be expected nowadays expecially with an RPG.

NPCs are walking around and selling stuff during the day. What else do you want them to do? And really, if the game is engrossing enough, you shouldn't even notice that an NPC with no name that you never talk to is leaning against a wall.

[Atakuma]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Untrue. You saw blacksmiths actually being blacksmiths, you saw kids playing, you saw some smoking, you saw scribes writing, you saw fishers fishing, lumberjacks being lumberjacks, you saw villagers gathering around a fireplace at night with the elder telling them a story....etc.

Yes, I was over simplifying it, however they still did the exact same thing in the exact same spot, all day every day. 
I't does give off a much better illusion than having NPCs just stand around like DA2, but it get's pretty repetetive after a while.

[TEWR]

These are all copied and pasted from my thread that I linked on the first page.

• Fishmongers, fruit stands, and Butchers: I mean, I wonder where the people of Thedosian cities get their food when all we see are blacksmiths and taverns. I'd like to actually see the people buy something. I'd like to see the merchants trying to get a person to buy a fish over a piece of meat.
  
• Citizens commenting on certain key things: If a noble is saved, they talk about it. Basically, if you make an important decision, the citizens will hear about it and comment on it. The gossips in Origins were the closest thing to what I'm getting at.
  
• Weather effects: Even if it was a fixed "random" event, it would make the city feel more alive.
  
• Blacksmiths working on their anvils
  
• Have the houses actually appear like someone lives inside of them and said person decides to go outside to buy something from the local butcher. Along the way, she sees her neighbor's husband who's in the City Guard and she converses with him.
  
•  (around the 7:58 mark)
  
• animals
  
• Harlots propositioning the player.
  
• Philosophers, ideologists and chantry priests holding forth on their various beliefs (this and the one above being Blothulfur's ideas)
  
• Musicians. Imagine if when you went into an area and you heard the area's music it was actually being played by a group of musicians. And dammit I want to see a hurdy-gurdy in Thedas!
  
• Funerals and Weddings
  
• Maybe if you're an elf people spit on you? You just hear a "Knife-ear. Ptooie*!" *Ptooie here signifies them spitting on you, not actually saying Ptooie
  
• I'd like to see ships moving in the background around dockside areas, maybe have some come into port and leave port. You see some people take some sacks or crates off the ship, it leaves, day continues. And yes, that could be done. FFXII, a PS2 game, had people carrying sacks and crates all around the Port of Balfonheim

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 août 2011 - 06:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Atakuma wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Untrue. You saw blacksmiths actually being blacksmiths, you saw kids playing, you saw some smoking, you saw scribes writing, you saw fishers fishing, lumberjacks being lumberjacks, you saw villagers gathering around a fireplace at night with the elder telling them a story....etc.

Yes, I was over simplifying it, however they still did the exact same thing in the exact same spot, all day every day. 
I't does give off a much better illusion than having NPCs just stand around like DA2, but it get's pretty repetetive after a while.

Yes, indeed (though some do actually go home and eat). The good thing is that we are not stuck in Flotsam all the game. That helps too.
Even Assassin's Creed, with their great cities, had repetitive NPCs that just walk.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 août 2011 - 06:57 .

[Chromie]

Atakuma wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Untrue. You saw blacksmiths actually being blacksmiths, you saw kids playing, you saw some smoking, you saw scribes writing, you saw fishers fishing, lumberjacks being lumberjacks, you saw villagers gathering around a fireplace at night with the elder telling them a story....etc.

Yes, I was over simplifying it, however they still did the exact same thing in the exact same spot, all day every day. 
I't does give off a much better illusion than having NPCs just stand around like DA2, but it get's pretty repetetive after a while.

Well obviously the npcs will repeat themselves over and over but still it makes the world feel more a live and draws me in. Dragon Age 2 just loved showing me how little it cared for immersion at least to me.

[TEWR]

Ringo12 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Untrue. You saw blacksmiths actually being blacksmiths, you saw kids playing, you saw some smoking, you saw scribes writing, you saw fishers fishing, lumberjacks being lumberjacks, you saw villagers gathering around a fireplace at night with the elder telling them a story....etc.

Yes, I was over simplifying it, however they still did the exact same thing in the exact same spot, all day every day. 
I't does give off a much better illusion than having NPCs just stand around like DA2, but it get's pretty repetetive after a while.

Well obviously the npcs will repeat themselves over and over but still it makes the world feel more a live and draws me in. Dragon Age 2 just loved showing me how little it cared for immersion at least to me.

Wouldn't it be possible for Bioware to use some sort of algorithm (or whatever it uses) to "randomize" what the NPCs do?

Like maybe you see a Blacksmith working on his anvil for a few minutes, but then he decides to take a break and buy something to drink.

[alex90c]

Do we actually know what the Eclipse engine is capable of for Dragon Age? It's cool to suggest all of these fun ideas (which seriously would help with bringing cities to life) but how much of it is actually possible in the game's current engine? I mean Bioware have said the reason their cities are fairly empty is because the engine would have a hard time rendering all of those NPCs in built-up locations, plus if you throw in routines that'll tax your CPU as it handles all of the calculations.

Modifié par alex90c, 28 août 2011 - 07:19 .

[Atakuma]

alex90c wrote...

Do we actually know what the Eclipse engine is capable of for Dragon Age? It's cool to suggest all of these fun ideas (which seriously would help with bringing cities to life) but how much of it is actually possible in the game's current engine? I mean Bioware have said the reason their cities are fairly empty is because the engine would have a hard time rendering all of those NPCs in built-up locations, plus if you throw in routines that'll tax your CPU as it handles all of the calculations.

I believe the problem is that the engine isn't optimized for consoles, so that's why they sacrificed so many details because they had to get it running on the consoles.

[Chromie]

alex90c wrote...

Do we actually know what the Eclipse engine is capable of for Dragon Age? It's cool to suggest all of these fun ideas (which seriously would help with bringing cities to life) but how much of it is actually possible in the game's current engine? I mean Bioware have said the reason their cities are fairly empty is because the engine would have a hard time rendering all of those NPCs in built-up locations, plus if you throw in routines that'll tax your CPU as it handles all of the calculations.

No idea but I don't see why they can't license an engine or build a new one that can handle all of that. If Ultima could have this I don't see why Dragon Age can't.

[Realmzmaster]

Ringo12 wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Do we actually know what the Eclipse engine is capable of for Dragon Age? It's cool to suggest all of these fun ideas (which seriously would help with bringing cities to life) but how much of it is actually possible in the game's current engine? I mean Bioware have said the reason their cities are fairly empty is because the engine would have a hard time rendering all of those NPCs in built-up locations, plus if you throw in routines that'll tax your CPU as it handles all of the calculations.

No idea but I don't see why they can't license an engine or build a new one that can handle all of that. If Ultima could have this I don't see why Dragon Age can't.

Licensing an engine costs money. First you have to find the engine that can support the game you wish to create. Example CDProjectK licensed the Aurora engine for Witcher 1. It had to be heavily modified to create the game (They had to write a new rendering engine.). CDProjectK had some experience with the engine because it did the Polish localization for Bioware games.

  Money and time has to be spent in training employees how to use the new engine. Only then can the actual game development begin.

Developing a new engine can be even more expensive. Dragon Age 2 uses a reworked (evolved) Eclipse egine called Lycium. The point is how much of a profit margin is EA/Bioware looking for?

A game can be critically acclaimed sell many copies, but barely break even because of development costs. Now I have no idea of EA/Bioware development costs. But creating a new engine can chew up a considerable amount of resources.

If a new engine was to be developed it would have to be cost efficient in that it can be used over multiple DA projects.
I know some are saying they did it for Mass Effect licensing the third version of the Unreal Engine, but we are talking about two different teams. And no it is not easy to grab people from the Mass Effect team and have them working on DA. That causes a whole lot of synergy problems.

So licensing or creating a new engine is not a simple affair. Even if Bioware created a new engine by the time it was ready for use it could be outdated in terms.
Better to create DA3 using the current engine, while working on a new engine or licensing a engine for DA 4.

Just  my humble opinions.

[Bryy_Miller]

Atakuma wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Do we actually know what the Eclipse engine is capable of for Dragon Age? It's cool to suggest all of these fun ideas (which seriously would help with bringing cities to life) but how much of it is actually possible in the game's current engine? I mean Bioware have said the reason their cities are fairly empty is because the engine would have a hard time rendering all of those NPCs in built-up locations, plus if you throw in routines that'll tax your CPU as it handles all of the calculations.

I believe the problem is that the engine isn't optimized for consoles, so that's why they sacrificed so many details because they had to get it running on the consoles.

That would make sense, but at the same time, if that is true, then it's rather poor planning.

[devSin]

alex90c wrote...

Do we actually know what the Eclipse engine is capable of for Dragon Age? It's cool to suggest all of these fun ideas (which seriously would help with bringing cities to life) but how much of it is actually possible in the game's current engine? I mean Bioware have said the reason their cities are fairly empty is because the engine would have a hard time rendering all of those NPCs in built-up locations, plus if you throw in routines that'll tax your CPU as it handles all of the calculations.

You can look at the Origins toolset if you want.

The capabilities for most of this stuff is pretty limitless. The scripting system is an evolved form of the NWN scripting system, and it allows them to control pretty much anything. All the NPC behaviors discussed here should be possible.

Problem is, you need to have the juice to execute it, the juice to draw it, and the type of game where it's not more of a nuisance than welcome ambience.