539 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

harkness72 wrote...
As a poster at the beginning said, just because something's distinctive doesn't make it good. DA:O was distinctive IMHO, in that I could look at a random screenshot and think, "Hey, that's Dragon Age Origins!" An art style is more than just how the game looks. It often changes and cements a game's atmosphere, as it does in DA.

That's not how distinctiveness works. If you show a non-fan, who hasn't been following DA:O the screenshot, will he distinguish it from an LoTR game? That's the goal. It might be a bad one, but just to be clear on what Bioware wants.

In Origins, the style went towards making the game feel dark, gritty, like there's always something sinister round the corner, always a shadow on the horizon (this is how the frnachise should feel, being a dark fantasy). 

Okay, did we play the same game? DA:O was just as cartoony, and make the Hurlocks zombies didn't make it a mature game that was gritty or dark. 

[King Cousland]

In Exile wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
As a poster at the beginning said, just because something's distinctive doesn't make it good. DA:O was distinctive IMHO, in that I could look at a random screenshot and think, "Hey, that's Dragon Age Origins!" An art style is more than just how the game looks. It often changes and cements a game's atmosphere, as it does in DA.

That's not how distinctiveness works. If you show a non-fan, who hasn't been following DA:O the screenshot, will he distinguish it from an LoTR game? That's the goal. It might be a bad one, but just to be clear on what Bioware wants.

In Origins, the style went towards making the game feel dark, gritty, like there's always something sinister round the corner, always a shadow on the horizon (this is how the frnachise should feel, being a dark fantasy). 

Okay, did we play the same game? DA:O was just as cartoony, and make the Hurlocks zombies didn't make it a mature game that was gritty or dark. 

How would a non-fan know what Origins or DAII was in the first place? If you show a non-fan (I assume in this case you mean someone who has not played either game) how would they be able to identify a picture from either game?

To answer you're second point, I guess this really is a truly subjective point, but I can't fathom how you can say Origins was cartoony. It was realistic if anything, and I think the DAII spawn look like undead. 

[Elhanan]

harkness72 wrote...

How would a non-fan know what Origins or DAII was in the first place? If you show a non-fan (I assume in this case you mean someone who has not played either game) how would they be able to identify a picture from either game?

To answer you're second point, I guess this really is a truly subjective point, but I can't fathom how you can say Origins was cartoony. It was realistic if anything, and I think the DAII spawn look like undead. 

I hope the Darkspawn for future projects look like DAA; the scariest ones thus far, IMO.

[erynnar]

In Exile wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
As a poster at the beginning said, just because something's distinctive doesn't make it good. DA:O was distinctive IMHO, in that I could look at a random screenshot and think, "Hey, that's Dragon Age Origins!" An art style is more than just how the game looks. It often changes and cements a game's atmosphere, as it does in DA.

That's not how distinctiveness works. If you show a non-fan, who hasn't been following DA:O the screenshot, will he distinguish it from an LoTR game? That's the goal. It might be a bad one, but just to be clear on what Bioware wants.

In Origins, the style went towards making the game feel dark, gritty, like there's always something sinister round the corner, always a shadow on the horizon (this is how the frnachise should feel, being a dark fantasy). 

Okay, did we play the same game? DA:O was just as cartoony, and make the Hurlocks zombies didn't make it a mature game that was gritty or dark. 

As on who is playing LoTR, yes, they would distinguish them. They don't look a thing a like.

[Sidney]

harkness72 wrote...
How would a non-fan know what Origins or DAII was in the first place? If you show a non-fan (I assume in this case you mean someone who has not played either game) how would they be able to identify a picture from either game?

To answer you're second point, I guess this really is a truly subjective point, but I can't fathom how you can say Origins was cartoony. It was realistic if anything, and I think the DAII spawn look like undead. 

Put another way in a sea of games with orcs and elves did the DAO versions of those sorts of things - and Hurlocks are just orcs - standout? No, not a whit. The DA2 darkspawn don't look like an orc. They actually make some sense as pale underground critters (why dwarves aren't similarly pale I don't know). My problem is less the pale darkspawn (BTW did they add red eyes in a patch or where the eyes always red and I missed it) than the tragic armor that looks like it is some pre-alpha build that hasn't had all the pixels smoothed out yet.

[King Cousland]

Elhanan wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

How would a non-fan know what Origins or DAII was in the first place? If you show a non-fan (I assume in this case you mean someone who has not played either game) how would they be able to identify a picture from either game?

To answer you're second point, I guess this really is a truly subjective point, but I can't fathom how you can say Origins was cartoony. It was realistic if anything, and I think the DAII spawn look like undead. 

I hope the Darkspawn for future projects look like DAA; the scariest ones thus far, IMO.

Given our past interactions, I'm surprised to find myself agreeing with you  

[In Exile]

harkness72 wrote...
How would a non-fan know what Origins or DAII was in the first place? If you show a non-fan (I assume in this case you mean someone who has not played either game) how would they be able to identify a picture from either game?

Don't ask me. I'm just commenting on the Bioware. 

To answer you're second point, I guess this really is a truly subjective point, but I can't fathom how you can say Origins was cartoony. It was realistic if anything, and I think the DAII spawn look like undead. 

[img]http://fc2.funcheapsf.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/zombie.jpg[/img]
[img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091212165330/dragonage/images/archive/8/89/20100112163944!Creature-Hurlock.jpg[/img]
[img]http://thegaminggremlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/darkspawn.jpg[/img]

It looks like a zombie, and then like chalk. Not much of an improvement.

But I'm talking about the DA:O graphics in general, and the art direction. There was nothing gritty about it.

The darkspawn were wearing elaborate plate. They were a little diseased, but they weren't hulking - they walked and moved like people did. People were disembodied, but their bodies were always whole (just a little bloody). 

[In Exile]

Sidney wrote...

Put another way in a sea of games with orcs and elves did the DAO versions of those sorts of things - and Hurlocks are just orcs - standout? No, not a whit. The DA2 darkspawn don't look like an orc. They actually make some sense as pale underground critters (why dwarves aren't similarly pale I don't know). My problem is less the pale darkspawn (BTW did they add red eyes in a patch or where the eyes always red and I missed it) than the tragic armor that looks like it is some pre-alpha build that hasn't had all the pixels smoothed out yet.

Speaking of orcs, here are some hurlocks with facepaint in the eyes of one artist (you get it as a hit if you google image hurlock):

[img]http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/042/2/e/Hurlock_Face_Paint_by_ShaunAbsher.jpg[/img]

[csfteeeer]

In Exile wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
How would a non-fan know what Origins or DAII was in the first place? If you show a non-fan (I assume in this case you mean someone who has not played either game) how would they be able to identify a picture from either game?

Don't ask me. I'm just commenting on the Bioware. 

To answer you're second point, I guess this really is a truly subjective point, but I can't fathom how you can say Origins was cartoony. It was realistic if anything, and I think the DAII spawn look like undead. 

%3Ca%20href=http://fc2.funcheapsf.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/zombie.jpg" alt=""/>
%3Ca%20href=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091212165330/dragonage/images/archive/8/89/20100112163944!Creature-Hurlock.jpg" alt=""/>
%3Ca%20href=http://thegaminggremlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/darkspawn.jpg" alt=""/>

It looks like a zombie, and then like chalk. Not much of an improvement.

But I'm talking about the DA:O graphics in general, and the art direction. There was nothing gritty about it.

The darkspawn were wearing elaborate plate. They were a little diseased, but they weren't hulking - they walked and moved like people did. People were disembodied, but their bodies were always whole (just a little bloody). 

Subjective

[In Exile]

csfteeeer wrote...
Subjective

What is? That the "bestial" darkspawn have more ornate armour on their footsoldiers than the elite guard of Ferelden? Or that Alpha Hurlocks have more ornate armour than the King of Ferelden? 

[King Cousland]

In Exile wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
How would a non-fan know what Origins or DAII was in the first place? If you show a non-fan (I assume in this case you mean someone who has not played either game) how would they be able to identify a picture from either game?

Don't ask me. I'm just commenting on the Bioware. 

To answer you're second point, I guess this really is a truly subjective point, but I can't fathom how you can say Origins was cartoony. It was realistic if anything, and I think the DAII spawn look like undead. 

<a href=http://fc2.funcheapsf.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/zombie.jpg" alt=""/>
<a href=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091212165330/dragonage/images/archive/8/89/20100112163944!Creature-Hurlock.jpg" alt=""/>
<a href=http://thegaminggremlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/darkspawn.jpg" alt=""/>

It looks like a zombie, and then like chalk. Not much of an improvement.

But I'm talking about the DA:O graphics in general, and the art direction. There was nothing gritty about it.

The darkspawn were wearing elaborate plate. They were a little diseased, but they weren't hulking - they walked and moved like people did. People were disembodied, but their bodies were always whole (just a little bloody). 

Well, IMHO, the Origins style was gritty. Much more so than DAII at least. For example, compare :

Origins - www.google.co.uk/imgres

DAII - www.google.co.uk/imgres 

EXAMPLE 2:

Origins - dragonage.wikia.com/index.php

DAII - dragonage.wikia.com/index.php

How anybody can say the former of the samples is not darker and gritty compared to the latter is beyond my mental capacity it seems. 

Given that darkspawn emerge from tainted female people is it so hard to imagine that they'd bear a resemblance to them? As for the plate, you're away that dakrspawn don't forge their own arms and armour? That's done by ghouls. 

Modifié par harkness72, 30 août 2011 - 11:57 .

[King Cousland]

In Exile wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...
Subjective

What is? That the "bestial" darkspawn have more ornate armour on their footsoldiers than the elite guard of Ferelden? Or that Alpha Hurlocks have more ornate armour than the King of Ferelden? 

Forged by ghouls. Often not even forged per se, just repaired from salvaged equipment found in the Deep Roads. 

[erynnar]

What makes me laugh, is that in an effort to be more "distinctive" (from what? DAO? LoTR? Guild Wars? WoW?) the style resembles WoW more. The Elves look more like the LoTR goblins (not exactly alike, but similar enough that it caught my eye). The Genlock alphas look even more like LoTR's troll, Hurlock Alpha looks like the mouth of Sauron and Hurlocks look like Skeletor.

And I'm not disgusted by them. They don't creep me out, they make me laugh. They look like stupid monsters not tainted creatures born from tainted broodmothers. Slaughtering them now doesn't leave me with the feeling of needing my character to have a shower. Now they are just beasts like the bronto. Not worried that these guys are going to taint everything in their path, they're just creatures.

edited due to face/palm inducing grammar error. and a second time. Geeze, I'm knackered. Working for a living sucks. ROFL!

Modifié par erynnar, 31 août 2011 - 01:03 .

[King Cousland]

erynnar wrote...

What makes me laugh, is that in an effort to be more "distinctive" (from what? DAO? LoTR? Guild Wars? WoW?) the style resembles WoW more. The Elves look more like the LoTR goblins (not exactly alike, but similar enough that it caught my eye). The Genlock alphas look even more like LoTR's troll, Hurlock Alpha looks like the mouth of Sauron and Hurlocks look like Skeletor.

And I'm not disgusted by them. They don't creep me out, they make me laugh. They look like stupid monsters not tainted creatures born from tainted broodmothers. Slaughtering them now doesn't leave me with the feeling of needing my character to have a shower. Now they are just beasts like the bronto. Not worried that these guys are going to taint everything in their path, their just creatures.

This x1000000000000000000000000000000000

[Elhanan]

erynnar wrote...

What makes me laugh, is that in an effort to be more "distinctive" (from what? DAO? LoTR? Guild Wars? WoW?) the style resembles WoW more. The Elves look more like the LoTR goblins (not exactly alike, but similar enough that it caught my eye). The Genlock alphas look even more like LoTR's troll, Hurlock Alpha looks like the mouth of Sauron and Hurlocks look like Skeletor.

And I'm not disgusted by them. They don't creep me out, they make me laugh. They look like stupid monsters not tainted creatures born from tainted broodmothers. Slaughtering them now doesn't leave me with the feeling of needing my character to have a shower. Now they are just beasts like the bronto. Not worried that these guys are going to taint everything in their path, their just creatures.

And yet many of us have played (or seen) most (or all) of them, and most are still widely popular. I found DAO's similarities to LotR to be fairly obvious, and I adore both. My guess is that most do, too. IMO.

But you argue that DA2 is not distinctive from these other projects. I would say that if one single  project provided memories from all these seperate and successful franchises that it is distinctive on it's face. But I hold that Hawke, Isabelle, Fenris, etc are memorable enough on their own to be linked as DA2 seperately from any other.

And what makes me laugh? The dialogue; another Bioware signature that seperates itself from the dross.

[TEWR]

erynnar wrote...

What makes me laugh, is that in an effort to be more "distinctive" (from what? DAO? LoTR? Guild Wars? WoW?) the style resembles WoW more. The Elves look more like the LoTR goblins (not exactly alike, but similar enough that it caught my eye). The Genlock alphas look even more like LoTR's troll, Hurlock Alpha looks like the mouth of Sauron and Hurlocks look like Skeletor.

And I'm not disgusted by them. They don't creep me out, they make me laugh. They look like stupid monsters not tainted creatures born from tainted broodmothers. Slaughtering them now doesn't leave me with the feeling of needing my character to have a shower. Now they are just beasts like the bronto. Not worried that these guys are going to taint everything in their path, they're just creatures.

edited due to face/palm inducing grammar error. and a second time. Geeze, I'm knackered. Working for a living sucks. ROFL!

Here's what I posted on page 3 on how the Darkspawn could be improved (I promote my stuff way too much ). This is all in theory. In practice would show whether it would work or not:

Just so this doesn't get lost in the shuffle

hmmm... I might approve of the new Hurlocks if they had these traits:

1) More bloody, dirty, and less shiny white
2) Had different noses (some being torn or ripped), and have some who have the original Hurlock type nose
3) wore armor that actually looks like the original Darkspawn armor, or something that looks half-assed.
4) had sharp teeth again
5) had monstrous tattoos again
6) lose their hair. That made them look more like Uruk-Hai for me, so the hair needs to go.
7) appeared in high level of detail on all platforms.

and to go even further

For Ogres, they need:

1) Less mushed up face
2) Completely gray or completely purple
3) Soulless eyes
4) A return to the DAO teeth that they had. There is a difference between the two sets of teeth



For Genlocks:

1) Tinker around with the color scheme. Most people would like them to not be beige. Me? I couldn't care less about their color. I love the new design. The Genlocks in Origins were the only ones that needed an overhaul, and the new design works
2) Make the Genlock Alphas taller than regular Genlocks like they are now, but smaller than Hurlock Grunts. Or just make the Hurlock grunts taller than the Alphas, and the Hurlock Alphas are also given a height boost.



For Shrieks:

1) a return to the DAO style (color scheme and sharp teeth included)
2) drop the protrusions from the old style
3) move the ears down
4) give them a more elf-like body. Looking at the old design, they seem to have pointed feet, while the new design has more normal-esque feet.
5) make their heads more narrow and have less of a giant forehead.

And then to add to that:


Hurlock Emissaries:

1) Drop the S&M gear on the face and the elf ears.

harkness72 wrote...


Forged by ghouls. Often not even forged per se, just repaired from salvaged equipment found in the Deep Roads. 

The Genlock Forge Master questions the notion that only ghouls forge weapons.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 août 2011 - 01:18 .

[King Cousland]

Elhanan wrote...

erynnar wrote...

What makes me laugh, is that in an effort to be more "distinctive" (from what? DAO? LoTR? Guild Wars? WoW?) the style resembles WoW more. The Elves look more like the LoTR goblins (not exactly alike, but similar enough that it caught my eye). The Genlock alphas look even more like LoTR's troll, Hurlock Alpha looks like the mouth of Sauron and Hurlocks look like Skeletor.

And I'm not disgusted by them. They don't creep me out, they make me laugh. They look like stupid monsters not tainted creatures born from tainted broodmothers. Slaughtering them now doesn't leave me with the feeling of needing my character to have a shower. Now they are just beasts like the bronto. Not worried that these guys are going to taint everything in their path, their just creatures.

And yet many of us have played (or seen) most (or all) of them, and most are still widely popular. I found DAO's similarities to LotR to be fairly obvious, and I adore both. My guess is that most do, too. IMO.

But you argue that DA2 is not distinctive from these other projects. I would say that if one single  project provided memories from all these seperate and successful franchises that it is distinctive on it's face. But I hold that Hawke, Isabelle, Fenris, etc are memorable enough on their own to be linked as DA2 seperately from any other.

And what makes me laugh? The dialogue; another Bioware signature that seperates itself from the dross.

Indeed, memorable enough to recall their names...

[In Exile]

harkness72 wrote...
How anybody can say the former of the samples is not darker and gritty compared to the latter is beyond my mental capacity it seems.

I just don't see a difference. 

Given that darkspawn emerge from tainted female people is it so hard to imagine that they'd bear a resemblance to them?

I don't understand? The darkspawn (beside the hurlocks) in DA:O don't look like the races they came from. And DA2 gives us the chalkspawn, but still doesn't have them look like the races they came from, except for the hurlocks.

As for the plate, you're away that dakrspawn don't forge their own arms and armour? That's done by ghouls. 

I'm not talking about the plate existing. I'm talking about how ornate it is. It has more decorations than stuff designed for royalty. Metal-work isn't something you can just wing when infected with a mind devouring curse. It takes years of training and preparation.

The DA2 darkspawn armour looks like ghouls made it. The DA:O darkspawn armour looks like it was mass produced with the touch of an artisan, designed to inspire fear and terror. 

edit:

Oh, god, I'm defending the chalkspawn. Please forgive me. I really don't like how the darkspawn look in either game, and the fact I defended DA2's portrayal is 100% incidental. 

Modifié par In Exile, 31 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[craigdolphin]

erynnar wrote...
And I'm not disgusted by them. They don't creep me out, they make me laugh.

When I showed my wife the revamped hurlock screenies pre-launch, she laughed aloud and thought I was pulling her leg.

When I didn't laugh along with her, and she then realised it wasn't actually a practical joke, she went very quiet. After seeing and playing several other games since then, she still finds it hard to understand why Bioware choose to make DA2 look childish and cartoony instead of refining and improving the more serious and 'realistic' aesthetic from Origins. I can't say that I can offer her a sensible explanation.

[Sabariel]

craigdolphin wrote...

erynnar wrote...
And I'm not disgusted by them. They don't creep me out, they make me laugh.

When I showed my wife the revamped hurlock screenies pre-launch, she laughed aloud and thought I was pulling her leg.

When I didn't laugh along with her, and she then realised it wasn't actually a practical joke, she went very quiet. After seeing and playing several other games since then, she still finds it hard to understand why Bioware choose to make DA2 look childish and cartoony instead of refining and improving the more serious and 'realistic' aesthetic from Origins. I can't say that I can offer her a sensible explanation.

I had the same reaction to the first screenshots of Merrill and Zevran. I was so certain it was a joke...

But no, joke's on me, the elves are child-like Furby/Gizmo/goat/insect things that can see into your soul

[Valcutio]

The graphics and art of DAO were so much better... Man, I hate DA2. In every way.

[miraclemight]

erynnar wrote...
And I'm not disgusted by them. They don't creep me out, they make me laugh.

Well, at least they make you laugh. The Hurlock Alpha reveal made me pause the game and facepalm. Literally.

Yes, the mouth looks more disturbing than normal darkspawn, but hiding the eyes that way dispels the whole effect. I have a suggestion: Take off that helmet and look at the monster again. 

[Zanallen]

SparkleWaffle wrote...

Who knows? Maybe somewhere in the Deep Roads, there's a ghoulified version of Wade complaining bitterly about the Archdemon's unwillingness to donate some scales for his work and having his creative genius suppressed by being forced to mass-mass-mass produce darkspawn armor.

There should be a whole expansion based around this.