539 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Sidney wrote...
DAO was a horribly generic medieval setting.

Pauldrons of doom were something, at least.

For once, I'd love to see something set in the earlier middle ages and not in a fake England. Give me a world w/o stone fortifications, half timbered buildings, longbows and platemail and you'd actually rather easily create a distinctive look.

Well, Fake England Ferelden was in principle designed not to be that, sadly. 

[Sylvianus]

What bothered me early in the "graphic style" in Dragon Age 2, is the cartoon aspect of the chara-design. It's hard to give credit to the script, and to believe in a world  "dark and violent" when their characters seem to recycle Sims. I was so pissed off to see a story dark enough turned to this joke.

When you tell a specific story, the design must follow what it means and what it expresses concretely.
I'm not a fan of, " as the story is too dark, " I will add whimsical colors and make cartoons. No. NO. NOOOOOOOOOO !

The best way to represent its story is still to have some consistency between what is said and what is shown. The impact of what is said is fiercely reduced if the design reflects the opposite in my opinion.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[Deadmuskrat]

csfteeeer wrote...

[No, for me the Elves are  a mixed bag, some look cute(like Merrill, and that chick who was to get raped or whoever she is), others looks HORRIBLE(like the one you show above)

Egads! That is almost a realistic approach to Elves....

[In Exile]

Sylvianus wrote...

What bothered me early in the "graphic style" in Dragon Age 2, is the cartoon aspect of the chara-design. It's hard to give credit to the script, and to believe in a world  "dark and violent" when their characters seem to recycle Sims. I was so pissed off to see a story dark enough turned to this joke.

I absolutely appreciate that sentiment. I just don't understand how you didn't have it for DA:O. Because, aside from the very rare instances of spiky armour, DA:O has the same character designs. Well, they all look like humans more or less, but the humans look as cartoony in DA2 and DA:O.

The best way to represent its story is still to have some consistency between what is said and what is shown. The impact of what is said is fiercely reduced if the design reflects the opposite in my opinion.

Bioware is bad at this. They flopped on this many times in DA:O (blight nips at my what now?), and they got away with it, so in DA2 they took it to the next level. 

[Morroian]

Sylvianus wrote...

What bothered me early in the "graphic style" in Dragon Age 2, is the cartoon aspect of the chara-design. It's hard to give credit to the script, and to believe in a world  "dark and violent" when their characters seem to recycle Sims. I was so pissed off to see a story dark enough turned to this joke.

The only character designs to me that seemed more cartoony than DAO were the elves. The combat animations are more cartoony though which is where I thought all the anime references came from.

[Sylvianus]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
The best way to represent its story is still to have some consistency between what is said and what is shown. The impact of what is said is fiercely reduced if the design reflects the opposite in my opinion.

Bioware is bad at this. They flopped on this many times in DA:O (blight nips at my what now?), and they got away with it, so in DA2 they took it to the next level. 

Maybe.

//www.canardpc.com/img/news/27996/witcher2_39872_3931.jpeg

//www.xbox360france.com/upload/Gallery/DragonAge_Origins_74.jpg

//na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/dragonage/assets/media/gallery/screenshots/downloads/16_morrigan.jpg

But in general, when Bioware told me its dark story with DAO, about the blight, Ferelden, etc etc, , I believed it, I was thrilled because what it told to me was followed by what I saw. That was magnificent. Dao is perhaps not distinctive enough, but it was never something I needed. Why not improve instead of just throwing all the design for cartoon ? Or better, to be distinctive, is it really necessary to turn in this art style ? I personally prefer the elves in  dragon age origins, than in DAII. But whatever, I agree,  Yes the change is welcoming, but I don't like them in this art style.

To be honest, the graphics were never a problem for me. They became since  DA2, where I see a story ridiculed by its art sytle in my eyes. For me it's like the franchise Zelda, with ocarina of time the best game of nintendo, the best franchise, turned into the cartoonish Zelda Wind Waker, the end of my life.  They killed the franchise for me.

Maybe dao was already a bit cartoonish, ( still decent ), but they went too far.

I posted a pic with the witcher, because when I see that, I can already think that the story is dark enought, even if I don't know it. The design affects me.

[erynnar]

Nice pics Syl. I agree with you. I don't see anything wrong with DAO's artstyle that it needed to be rectonned. Tweaked, sure, retconned and overhauled, no. It was distinctive and you could recognize it in it's own right.

Just another excuse to treat DAO as if it as this horrible game that needed to be overhauled and redone. Instead, DA2 is (which Legacy helped with).

[Vicious]

The real point of changing the art style was for casual fans. Not the hardcore ones who post here.

1) Everything looks distinctive. Grey Wardens? Got their own uniform now. Qunari? Not just really tall dark skinned humans anymore. Orlesian stuff? Looks Fancy Hurlock Emissary? Scary to look at and very unique, as opposed to DA:O where they literally looked just like Orks.

Do I agree with it? Not completely [Hurlocks], but i see why it had to be done. Almost everything looked the same as generic.dnd.rpg_001 in DA:O.

[erynnar]

Vicious wrote...

The real point of changing the art style was for casual fans. Not the hardcore ones who post here.

1) Everything looks distinctive. Grey Wardens? Got their own uniform now. Qunari? Not just really tall dark skinned humans anymore. Orlesian stuff? Looks Fancy Hurlock Emissary? Scary to look at and very unique, as opposed to DA:O where they literally looked just like Orks.

Do I agree with it? Not completely [Hurlocks], but i see why it had to be done. Almost everything looked the same as generic.dnd.rpg_001 in DA:O.

Maybe casual fans shouldn't be the ones they should worry about? Unless of course the casual ones make up for the loss of the hardcore ones and enough to make the number even bigger than what they lost.

I do love the Grey Warden armor, though I was happy not to have it in DAO, more of a oh **** got recurited and now there's only two of us. Plus Ferelden always seemed a little non conformist compared to say Orlais, or Tevinter. Love it in DA2 though.

Hurlock Emissary doesn't look scary to me, it looks stupid. Like a vampire with S & M gear (looks like a Nosveratu). The stupid hand waving with those super long fingers in the animation make me laugh too. Creeped out is not what I feel unfortunately. The Hurlock Emissary in DAO had a headress made of blades and was blindfolded because he was so bad ass he didn't need to see you with his eyes.  That was creepy to me.

But I do owe everyone and apology. I am tired and cranky. My comment about DA2 needing to be overhaulded was snarky and out of line. I apologize to the devs and to the people who like DA2. My sincerest apologies guys, just feel free to *smack* me in the back of the head for it.  Sometimes it doesn't pay to get out of bed.  *HUGs*

[csfteeeer]

Vicious wrote...

The real point of changing the art style was for casual fans. Not the hardcore ones who post here.

1) Everything looks distinctive. Grey Wardens? Got their own uniform now.

This has NOTHING to do with Art Style.

Qunari? Not just really tall dark skinned humans anymore.

This is a retcon that was made purely for stylistic reasons, and Writting 101 says: you don't do a retcon just for style.
But i will give it to you that they look cool.

Orlesian stuff? Looks Fancy

What on earth are you talking about? Everything that had to with nobles(except for the Viscount) was re used from DAO, including the Orlesian stuff

Hurlock Emissary? Scary to look at and very unique, as opposed to DA:O where they literally looked just like Orks.

This Doesn't scare you while This Does? You're Weird.

[TEWR]

This is a retcon that was made purely for stylistic reasons, and Writting 101 says: you don't do a retcon just for style.
But i will give it to you that they look cool.

It's not a retcon when the devs said that there are two types of Kossith: hornless and horned. And that David Gaider said a Kossith's skin tone varies (IIRC).

We barely knew anything about the Qunari. If we had been told all Kossith are hornless in the lands they control, then it would be a retcon.

They originally wanted the Kossith to have horns, but were unable to put that in DAO. In DAII, they were able to do so, and it explains why Ogres have horns.

It would be a pretty big plot hole if all Kossith were hornless and Kossith broodmothers gave birth to Ogres, with the Ogres having horns while the Kossith don't. Thankfully, we now know that there are two types of Kossith.

Who knows, maybe a hornless Kossith broodmother would create a different type of Ogre.

This Doesn't scare you while This Does? You're Weird.

I think the new Hurlock Emissaries could be tweaked to be horrific.

First two things that need to happen: drop the S&M gear on the face and the elven ears

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 septembre 2011 - 05:00 .

[The_11thDoctor]

Chris Priestly wrote...

And I disagree. While the art for DAO was good, it was not distinctive. DA II had a distinctive style.

To illustrate, think of cosplay. For DAO pretty much the only cosplay we had was Morrigan. The reason being, she was pretty much the only defineable character. The man, unless you happen to look like Alistair or whomever, were just guys in suits of armor. They could have been DAO, they could have been LotR. Hard to say. Now we get Isabelas and Aveines and Flemeths, but we also get Hawkes, Varrics, Fenrises... Fenri... a bunch of Fenris.

YOU may not like it as much, and that always comes down to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", but the art was changed to make it destinct from other fantasy games, and it accomplished that very well.

I agree. DA2>DAO in looks. I wish we got to change our party's clothes, but that's was just laziness. We should of had 20 diff armors for all party members that was in the character's style, but that would take them making a different version of all armor in the game based on who wore it which would prob be a different armor system implimentation that wasnt done, but I agree DA2 as a whole is 400% better looking than DAO. DAO was bland, no distinct style minus Morrigan. The characters and the world was bland. Only thing that saved it was the Story/Lore, and the Voice Acting. All else to me was forgetable. DA2 had characters that looked like someone you could remember and the environments actually looked decent for what was there. It didnt have enough in them and didnt make you feel you were actually in a world compared to Uncharted's environments that are filled with crap and gorgeous, but DA2 had a difinative style to each area. Cant say that about DAO. The Armor, Im happy to say was a HUGE improvement. I love the way the armor looks in DA2 and NOTHING in DAO can hold a candle to the armor in DA2! That is the best thing I know that was improved greatly in DA2. So here's the list

Better looking Environments, characters, armor, clothes, visual effects, animations, but somehow they should go back to DAO?! Whatever the OP is smoking should remain illegal and I want no part of. Andraste's ****** man! What's wrong with you?!

You feel like the the darkpawn dont look better so we should scrap all the other improvements?! I like the DS in this game over DAO. They were all purple and as you can see, the Ogre looks like an purple colored ape with horns... The rest of the DS werent even that distinct... I couldnt even make out what they were in DAO and just thought " oh, its the purple guys again..." each fight. They actually look like what i'd imagine demons to look like more in this game than DAO. Could they look a little better? Sure, but as Im sure Bioware will do in the future with DA3, they will improve upon their new style or try something new altogether instead of going back to DAO "art"...

The Skin textures is still terrible in DA2. Same for the hair... Bioware is the only company that I know cant ever get these 2 right... Maker's breath, let's not even talk about the poor excuses of hands on every model in the game! Merril?....100 yr old hands anyone?! You work for EA dont you?! I know they have people who ust work on feathers etc and that's all they model. Get someone on the modeling hands, hair and doing skin textures!

Question for Bioware: Why didnt you use the art style you made for the concept art? If you tried a cell shaded animated look for DA I think that would be amazing! It'd be colorful, different, kind of like seeing Borderlands, No More Heroes, or Catherine to some degree, but Bioware's own distinct style. Other directions to go in art wise...

Uncharted 2-3
Vindictus (FREE to play PC game and it's worlds ahead of Bioware...)
Tekken's art style for character models and level of environments...(minus arena part...)
Dead Space 2
Lost Odyssey
Infamous 2
Red Dead Redemption
Demon Souls
Resident Evil 5
FF13 minus the corridors...
Shenmue 2 (but with current tech)
Yakuza 4
Tales of Vesperia (wether it's the cell look or expansive environments)
MGS4
Mass Effect 2-3

DA just always feels dated...like it should have came out 5 years ago when it releases.(style of character textures/modeling and the environments...)

[Anarya]

Vicious wrote...

The real point of changing the art style was for casual fans. Not the hardcore ones who post here.

1) Everything looks distinctive. Grey Wardens? Got their own uniform now. Qunari? Not just really tall dark skinned humans anymore. Orlesian stuff? Looks Fancy Hurlock Emissary? Scary to look at and very unique, as opposed to DA:O where they literally looked just like Orks.

Do I agree with it? Not completely [Hurlocks], but i see why it had to be done. Almost everything looked the same as generic.dnd.rpg_001 in DA:O.

Um, what? What on earth does a more distinctive style have to do with how hardcore or casual you are?

[In Exile]

Sylvianus wrote...
But in general, when Bioware told me its dark story with DAO, about the blight, Ferelden, etc etc, , I believed it, I was thrilled because what it told to me was followed by what I saw.

I didn't see a dark story in DA:O. I saw an incredibly light story about a superhuman character who single-handedly defeats a horror in the fastest possible time (6 mo. instead of 20 years) without almost any devastation (one city sacked, really?) and while succeeding in gather an unprecedented interspecies army that collaborated without any strife or even mention of racial tension, largely to defend a land that wasn't their own.

You can go so far as to have fairy tale endings for all of the main plot areas, save sort of Ozrammar. 

DA:O was high fantasy.

Why not improve instead of just throwing all the design for cartoon ?

That doesn't address my original point: I am saying DA:O was no less cartoony. You haven't actually told me what about DA:O made it not cartoony. Not the game, the art style.

I posted a pic with the witcher, because when I see that, I can already think that the story is dark enought, even if I don't know it. The design affects me.

You did post a pic with the Witcher. Let me counter with these:

[img]http://greywardens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/rsz_2hawkedragon.jpg[/img]

[img]http://images.wikia.com/dragonage/images/0/0e/Destruction_Chantry.jpg[/img]

Not hard to cherry-pick a few dark shots of a game. 

[Anarya]

PuppyFlavour wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Um, what? What on earth does a more distinctive style have to do with how hardcore or casual you are?

At this point it seems like every single change the devs make can be described as an effort of simplifying the game for dirty "casual" gamers, whether this is true or not.

I've noticed. I need to stop rolling my eyes or I might get a sprain. An eye sprain.

And re:story-- DA2's story was really much darker than Origins', hands down. And more mature as well. There's a theme of failure despite your best efforts and intentions, of realizing the limits of your control over your fate and the world, and coming to terms with that. That's a very mature thing to realize and deal with, and really was my favorite aspect of the story. I can't think of another game off the top of my head that deals with that, whereas I can think of a million where I save the world from the looming evil fill-in-the-blank. Not that the story was perfect, but it had some great things going for it.

Modifié par Anarya, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:28 .

[Yuqi]

Anarya wrote...

PuppyFlavour wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Um, what? What on earth does a more distinctive style have to do with how hardcore or casual you are?

At this point it seems like every single change the devs make can be described as an effort of simplifying the game for dirty "casual" gamers, whether this is true or not.

I've noticed. I need to stop rolling my eyes or I might get a sprain. An eye sprain.

And re:story-- DA2's story was really much darker than Origins', hands down. And more mature as well. There's a theme of failure despite your best efforts and intentions, of realizing the limits of your control over your fate and the world, and coming to terms with that. That's a very mature thing to realize and deal with, and really was my favorite aspect of the story. I can't think of another game off the top of my head that deals with that, whereas I can think of a million where I save the world from the looming evil fill-in-the-blank. Not that the story was perfect, but it had some great things going for it.

lol +10

[Anarya]

Yeah sorry what was I thinking? Bigger demon=moar darker

[snfonseka]

DA2 art style is more or less "cartooniss" for me. So I like DA:Origins style.

[Anarya]

PuppyFlavour wrote...

Anarya wrote...


I've noticed. I need to stop rolling my eyes or I might get a sprain. An eye sprain.

And re:story-- DA2's story was really much darker than Origins', hands down. And more mature as well. There's a theme of failure despite your best efforts and intentions, of realizing the limits of your control over your fate and the world, and coming to terms with that. That's a very mature thing to realize and deal with, and really was my favorite aspect of the story. I can't think of another game off the top of my head that deals with that, whereas I can think of a million where I save the world from the looming evil fill-in-the-blank. Not that the story was perfect, but it had some great things going for it.

Careful. Eye sprains may lead to cancer. And dandruff.

I'M A DOCTOR SO I KNOW.

Also, agreed on the story -. while it certainly had its issues, it's rare and refreshing to see a game that has social justice as its focal point.

N..not dandruff!!

I'm sad that the story had all the problems that it did, because thematically it had real potential to be amazing.

[Xewaka]

Anarya wrote...
I've noticed. I need to stop rolling my eyes or I might get a sprain. An eye sprain.

And re:story-- DA2's story was really much darker than Origins', hands down. And more mature as well. There's a theme of failure despite your best efforts and intentions, of realizing the limits of your control over your fate and the world, and coming to terms with that. That's a very mature thing to realize and deal with, and really was my favorite aspect of the story. I can't think of another game off the top of my head that deals with that, whereas I can think of a million where I save the world from the looming evil fill-in-the-blank. Not that the story was perfect, but it had some great things going for it.

However, it is hard for a videogame to make the main protagonist fail despite his/her best efforts without making the player feel as if he/she (the player) failed as well. It's a very fine line to walk, and for some people they fell off said line.
I salute what they attempted to do with the story. It was a refreshing change of pace from the usual true and tried paths trodden a thousand times before. I personally liked the idea behind it, even if it sometimes failed to communicate properly due to the game's execution. However, I also understand that for some people, ineffectual character = ineffectual player, and thus the undercurring theme is lost in the frustration of being unable to derive any sort of result from their (the players') effort.

[esper]

Xewaka wrote...

Anarya wrote...
I've noticed. I need to stop rolling my eyes or I might get a sprain. An eye sprain.

And re:story-- DA2's story was really much darker than Origins', hands down. And more mature as well. There's a theme of failure despite your best efforts and intentions, of realizing the limits of your control over your fate and the world, and coming to terms with that. That's a very mature thing to realize and deal with, and really was my favorite aspect of the story. I can't think of another game off the top of my head that deals with that, whereas I can think of a million where I save the world from the looming evil fill-in-the-blank. Not that the story was perfect, but it had some great things going for it.

However, it is hard for a videogame to make the main protagonist fail despite his/her best efforts without making the player feel as if he/she (the player) failed as well. It's a very fine line to walk, and for some people they fell off said line.
I salute what they attempted to do with the story. It was a refreshing change of pace from the usual true and tried paths trodden a thousand times before. I personally liked the idea behind it, even if it sometimes failed to communicate properly due to the game's execution. However, I also understand that for some people, ineffectual character = ineffectual player, and thus the undercurring theme is lost in the frustration of being unable to derive any sort of result from their (the players') effort.

I think it is this that made me like Hawke so múch more than the warden. Hawke just felt human while the warden felt like the average rpg-hero who can solve everything just by existing. I think they just needed some more secondary quest in which you can suceed in some small matter in order to counter the dark theme.