539 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlasskiwi]

fightright2 wrote...

Yellow Words wrote...


Now I just have to ask you, did you think that this was true in DAO? I remember plenty of elves that didn't look good or that I would call alluring.

No, I don't think every elf in DAO fit that description. I remember some awful looking ones.

Then why should we go back to DAO's elf design when the same lore applies to them? Not liking the design is fine but I think the argument falls short when blaming the DA2 elves for not being good looking when the same thing can be said for the elves in DAO.  

[Hel]

The purple ogres and the stray clown-painted characters in Origins weren't much better. There, I said it!
 
As for DA2 being cartoonish? Until I see a Roadrunner I'm going to have to disagree. There's a difference between stylized and cartoonish, DA2's art style is the former. It doesn't feature overly bright colours as far as I can tell, so I'm not sure where the cartoons come into play.

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:33 .

[TEWR]

Stick to the lore and make them beautiful to what most humans believe to be 'beautiful' is all I'm saying. And start with doing so with DA3.

There is no lore on what humans find attractive. Only that humans find the elves attractive, and this is from a codex written by one man who couldn't possibly have seen every elf in existence or even have seen only elves that were beautiful.

If you walk down the streets in your city, you will see ugly people as well as beautiful people. The same holds true for the elves. I could walk through the Alienage in Origins and see some good looking elves and ugly ones.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

I absolutely appreciate that sentiment. I just don't understand how you didn't have it for DA:O. Because, aside from the very rare instances of spiky armour, DA:O has the same character designs. Well, they all look like humans more or less, but the humans look as cartoony in DA2 and DA:O.

It's the skin.  The characters in DA2 have perfect uniform skin, while the DAO characters had more variation and texture.

I think the lighting may have something to do with that.  But compare the portraits from the two games.  DA2's skin has no depth or texture to it.

I suspect that may have been done to improve graphical performance, rather than a specific art decision, but it's certainly a change, and it's the change I like least.

For example:

There's no way to give a DA2 character skin that detailed.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[Atakuma]

Elves need to stop slouching, I don't know who thought giving them lousy posture was a good decision.

Modifié par Atakuma, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:37 .

[Satyricon331]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes, Merrill and Fenris look great, but they are edited to be good looking as they are LIs.
Every elf should be, by their very definition taken from their lore, beautiful and alluring.

Not just Merrill and Fenris. There's also Athenril, Orsino, Marethari, Ilen, Paivel, Fenarel, Ineria, Arianni, and other Dalish elves.

And that DAO style Warden makes me want to laugh because of the clown make-up. I will say that the face is better, but that doesn't mean the DAII style is a total bust. Just because one elf is ugly doesn't mean they all are. Bioware just needs to design the majority of elves to be graceful and attractive, and I think DAII did that if you don't count the cardboard cut out furniture people.

I'm not going to comment on the women, but I find the male elves you cite all hideous (especially the Dalish), with the possible exception of Orsino.  Plus, Fenris is an abnormally human-looking elf, and his being the first (male) elf people usualy cite to defend the DA2 elf look merely highlights how the DA2 elves are generally ugly.  If the DA2 elf look stood on its own, the most widely cited, best-looking among them would not look atypically human.

As for DAO, there were some ugly male elves, but mostly they were fine.

Rockpopple wrote...
It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the complaints were simply because to some people different = unappealing.

Perhaps, but the Qunari seem generally popular and they look "different"/non-human.

[DarkDragon777]

Atakuma wrote...

Elves need to stop slouching, I don't know who thought giving them lousy posture was a good decision.

Exactly, they're supposed to be active and in touch with nature. As a matter of fact, they should have better posture than humans, city-dwarves, etc., because they probably get a lot more exercise.

Modifié par DarkDragon777, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:41 .

[Hel]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I absolutely appreciate that sentiment. I just don't understand how you didn't have it for DA:O. Because, aside from the very rare instances of spiky armour, DA:O has the same character designs. Well, they all look like humans more or less, but the humans look as cartoony in DA2 and DA:O.

It's the skin.  The characters in DA2 have perfect uniform skin, while the DAO characters had more variation and texture.

I think the lighting may have something to do with that.  But compare the portraits from the two games.  DA2's skin has no depth or texture to it.

In all fairness the portraits aren't a good reference to use. Unless they're an actual screenshot from the game that was cropped by the user.

If you compare the details of the faces shown in-game to these odd looking forum portraits, you'll notice that DA2 has more details than people give it credit for. The rimples, crows feet, stubble and warts are all still there. Of course, it would have been spectacular if DA(2) showed the amount of details and the same lightning quality as the facemorph editor in the toolset does, yikes!

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:46 .

[TEWR]

Atakuma wrote...

Elves need to stop slouching, I don't know who thought giving them lousy posture was a good decision.

Agreed. If they're going to have a gorilla on their back, dammit I should be able to see him and make him a companion!

And in regards to shoes, I don't mind some city elves being shoeless, but I think some should have shoes. Or shoe-like thingies.

[Kail Ashton]

100 monkies locked in a room use'n their excrement as art tools could've done a better job on visuals then whoever bioware paid to for Origins unless their goal was "blandly generic with a hint of awful fantasy fodder" and once again i'll state it's a complete embaressment on bioware's part that the Origins mod community so utterly outperformed the PAID staff at bioware to the point more than a few models in DA2 are flat out stolen from mods

DA2 was a huuuuuge improvement visualy, not high end western or japanese great, but bioware has a bad habbit of settling for "eh good enough" but hey least they figured out physics for hair, clothing and jiggles (watch a naked femhawke run for example )

Modifié par Kail Ashton, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[Hel]

Kail Ashton wrote...

... but hey least they figured out physics for hair, clothing and jiggles (watch a naked femhawke run for example )

They had already figured that out in Neverwinter Nights. The fact that they didn't implement their own tech in a new title is beyond me... Dragon Age Origins and Awakening were so stiff in comparison.

[DarkDragon777]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Elves need to stop slouching, I don't know who thought giving them lousy posture was a good decision.

Agreed. If they're going to have a gorilla on their back, dammit I should be able to see him and make him a companion!

And in regards to shoes, I don't mind some city elves being shoeless, but I think some should have shoes. Or shoe-like thingies.

Indeed, I know they're nature lovers, but anyone as knowledgeable as them should know that you should wear some kind of foot-protection when you're in the enviromnt they're in. Even straw sandals or something......

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's the skin.  The characters in DA2 have perfect uniform skin, while the DAO characters had more variation and texture.

I think the lighting may have something to do with that.  But compare the portraits from the two games.  DA2's skin has no depth or texture to it.

I suspect that may have been done to improve graphical performance, rather than a specific art decision, but it's certainly a change, and it's the change I like least.

This, I agree. This is why the faces all look plastic, features too round/softish, and probably the reason I dislike them so. Not only that, but facial features, as I said, are too rounded with little conture, making faces look  piggish or porky.

One thing I did like, though, was the new body and underwear models. The Origins ones were crappy, looked grannyish on women. I do hope they keep the new ones going, because that was a major improvement. Just...fix the heads/faces. That's mostly what makes alot of the game cartoony.

And bless them,they fixed those god-awful hideous mage hats from origins, at least. God, those things could make even the most epic character look like a douche, which is why I often left my mage's bareheaded, except AW's. The mage hoods not only look better, but make alot of the people wearing them look better. And they actually look like something a wizard would wear, instead of the technicolor condoms we had to wear in Origins.

But the headmorphs, darkspawn-o-ween, and elf-bugs really need to go.

[Kail Ashton]

Helekanalaith wrote...

Kail Ashton wrote...

... but hey least they figured out physics for hair, clothing and jiggles (watch a naked femhawke run for example )

They had already figured that out in Neverwinter Nights. The fact that they didn't implement their own tech in a new title is beyond me... Dragon Age Origins and Awakening were so stiff in comparison.

mass effect is equally guilty, even up to me2 they couldn't figure out "wait...peoples hair aren't stiff plastic? get the hell out of here! ted did you know this??" i've played ps1 games with more realistic graphics physics and style, it's a sad joke

I'm sure there's at least 10 people line'n up to say "but it's bout the story!" except video games aren't freaking novels! you want a story go to the damn library and the high pixel/texture nonsese is equivilant a high resolution of a turd which is great except is STILL a turd! "style" and "pixel count" are completely diffrent

[Sabariel]

Yellow Words wrote...

fightright2 wrote...

Yellow Words wrote...


Now I just have to ask you, did you think that this was true in DAO? I remember plenty of elves that didn't look good or that I would call alluring.

No, I don't think every elf in DAO fit that description. I remember some awful looking ones.

Then why should we go back to DAO's elf design when the same lore applies to them? Not liking the design is fine but I think the argument falls short when blaming the DA2 elves for not being good looking when the same thing can be said for the elves in DAO.  

Because the DAO elves didn't look like creepy goat-children who can see into your soul? Just sayin'...

[csfteeeer]

MorrigansLove wrote...

DA2's art style is terrible, but DA1 wasn't much better!

If Bioware wants to create a world that actually feels alive then they should use the engine that Dice is using for BATTLEFIELD 3.

As much as i would love that, no, what they need is to update the engine they have and use it properly.

And that has nothing to do with Art Style.

[In Exile]

Sylvianus wrote...
1- But that's your opinions,  not mine, whether agree or disagree. It  serves no purposes here. I don't see the point to discuss about it. And I disagree with your point about dao = light. The story told isn't light, not at all,  super character or not, sucess or not.  That's not what make a story dark enough or not, in any case in my eyes .

The amount of 'hurt' (so suffering, losses, tragedy, etc.) is what makes a story dark for me. It's the life of the protagonist. The Warden is an engine of success. There's an existential threat, sure, but the Warden is like a flying beacon of hero that stands undefeated against the horrors of the world.

We were talking about the artstyle, and you suddenly brought up how DA:O felt dark, and I just gave my opinion. 

2- But I don't care your original point, It was YOUR opinion, not a fact,  I didn't feel the need to discuss about it. I just answered to your comment, which already answered to my comment between what is said and what is shown, and why I was satisfied with dao.

It wasn't even an opinion: it was an honest question. Which you didn't answer. You didn't even tell me what it was about the artstyle in DA:O that made it mature.

And again, I don't care that all look humans, it could be totally improved  with a new design in this art style, besides that's not what make them truly cartoonish too.  Let us agree to disagree, that's what was my thoughts. Dao was less cartoony, yes, totally in my eyes.

But I don't want to disagree! I want to understand. 

4 - Don't even bother to try to convince me that DA2 was no less cartoonish. You'll fail whatever what you say.  I have eyes. And the others too. This kind of visual denial won't find echo here, among us. At this point I'm not interested to talk with someone who can say me that.  It would be like telling us, what you see isn't what you see.

I'm not trying to convice you of anything. I am trying to understand how you feel. More importantly, can't you see how incoherent it is to say that it's obvious and you have eyes, when clearly other people (in this thread!) agree with me (and presumably have eyes) that DA:O and DA2 were each as cartoony? 

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
It's the skin.  The characters in DA2 have perfect uniform skin, while the DAO characters had more variation and texture.

I think the lighting may have something to do with that.  But compare the portraits from the two games.  DA2's skin has no depth or texture to it.

I suspect that may have been done to improve graphical performance, rather than a specific art decision, but it's certainly a change, and it's the change I like least.

For example:

There's no way to give a DA2 character skin that detailed.

That doesn't make it less cartoony, though. 

Here's an example:

(Since I fail at making pictures show up, I just have a link):

img117.imageshack.us/img117/9928/snapshot20081201013104zu0.jpg

This is a random internet anime picture of an old man. It doesn't look very different (other than the fact it is a different medium) from the one you posted. 

Modifié par In Exile, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:03 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Atakuma wrote...

Elves need to stop slouching, I don't know who thought giving them lousy posture was a good decision.

Now this I agree with. If they would only just straighten up their necks a little.

[FieryDove]

If they are going for distinctive they should be consistent. All da2 elves should have halla sloped foreheads and similar facial features/ears. Not just some. Having a few look more DAO/human like makes people wonder what is going on.

Or better yet take the time and make all of them look like Merrill (sans neck).

[Rockpopple]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the complaints were simply because to some people different = unappealing.

Perhaps, but the Qunari seem generally popular and they look "different"/non-human.

It's not even remotely possible to compare Qunari in DA:O to Qunari in Dragon Age 2. Forget the lore: it was a complete redesign. It wasn't like what they did with the elves, which was change them to conform to the new artstyle - The Qunari look fundamentally different from before. So either people like the new Qunari or they don't. It has little to nothing to do with the general artstyle. The new Qunari are popular because they have a great appealing design. The elves do too, but it's not different enough from the old elves, so people vary more in their response to them.

Personally I love the new elves. I like the ears, I like the noses and I love the eyes - all three of them together help distinguish them from skinny humans. When I played Dragon Age: Origins, I was always pissed off that my Elf-Warden, who lived such a fundamentally different life and was treated like such dirt by humans, essentially looked just like a human. I didn't want to play a shorter human from maybe a distant land from Fereldan - I wanted to play a goddamned elf.

And if they ever bring back some semblance of Origins and allow you to build your own elf hero, I have no doubt that they'd be good looking. Or not... depending on the skills of the gamer. =P

[In Exile]

Rockpopple wrote...

It's not even remotely possible to compare Qunari in DA:O to Qunari in Dragon Age 2. Forget the lore: it was a complete redesign.

It's better to say that it was a return to a design, because they once had horns. And tails, but Bioware didn't add those in. Too bad, I say. I miss when we thought they were lizards. 

[Satyricon331]

Rockpopple wrote...
It's not even remotely possible to compare Qunari in DA:O to Qunari in Dragon Age 2. Forget the lore: it was a complete redesign. It wasn't like what they did with the elves, which was change them to conform to the new artstyle - The Qunari look fundamentally different from before. So either people like the new Qunari or they don't. It has little to nothing to do with the general artstyle. The new Qunari are popular because they have a great appealing design. The elves do too, but it's not different enough from the old elves, so people vary more in their response to them.

Personally I love the new elves. I like the ears, I like the noses and I love the eyes - all three of them together help distinguish them from skinny humans. When I played Dragon Age: Origins, I was always pissed off that my Elf-Warden, who lived such a fundamentally different life and was treated like such dirt by humans, essentially looked just like a human. I didn't want to play a shorter human from maybe a distant land from Fereldan - I wanted to play a goddamned elf.

And if they ever bring back some semblance of Origins and allow you to build your own elf hero, I have no doubt that they'd be good looking. Or not... depending on the skills of the gamer. =P

Wow, I so thoroughly disagree with your theory that people's response to the elves was worse than to the Qunari merely because of how those designs relate to their predecessors.  Nonetheless, that disagreement's not one that would likely be productive to explore since it's an empirical issue that lacks real data.  Suffice it to say that to the extent it's fair game for you to declare the elves have a great, appealing design, I can fairly say they have a horrid, repulsive design.  Those matters of subjective opinions too are rather intractable.

edit: mai grammur bee awwsum 

Modifié par Satyricon331, 03 septembre 2011 - 12:28 .

[Jestina]

I wish they would get rid of the big anime elf ears too.