539 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Yrkoon wrote...
Well of course  DA2's art style looked distinctive.    No other RPG in the world would ever  deign to make deadly, blight-causing monsters look  like comedy-relief clowns.  Congrats on that.

Hopefully, for DA3, your  art goal will be:   to make things actually look GOOD, or BETTER.   But I digress, everyone else is doing that.  And you guys don't want to be like everyone else.    That wouldn't be very distinctive!

Apparently the goal is for Chad Vader to point out DA characters at the next Comic Con.

[Salaya]

So, I get the words of Chris Prestley as a sign of "no return" to the old art style (or some kind of step back and make changes a bit less radical). Now I'm sad.

I understand perfectly the need of making a new art style, distinct from regular-basis fantasy context. But I wish you keep in mind that acomplishing that does not mean that you have reached a "good" art style.

Yes, beauty is in the eye of oneself, but art directions are also subject for evaluation, and, as many aspects of DA2, its being polarized. Maybe you should take this in cosideration, and try to reach a compromise between public opinions and "being" different and unique. For me, I sincerely doubt that I buy DA3 if you keep that... appearence for elves.

(Maybe that sounded way too belligerent; I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect, but I really dislike the new art, and I think it's obvious that I'm not exactly alone in this)

Modifié par Salaya, 27 août 2011 - 11:58 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

alex90c wrote...


That's like me saying I want my house to look more distinctive so I'll drape toilet roll all over it. Yes, it'll be pretty damn distinctive, but it won't look good.

QFT.

Distinctive does not automatically equal good, original, or interesting, or even creative. Crap has a "distinctive" smell. Nails on chalkboard have a "dinstictive" sound. Nausea is a "distinctive" sensation. Drinking battery acid would probably have a "distinctive" taste.

I found DA2's art style to be "distinctively" unappealing . And to be honest, if we are going for originality, its not even there. Much of the game artistically speaking felt like a JRPG rip off (and I don't just mean Fenris, either, though you could cut and paste him into just about any JRPG and not notice).

[Yrkoon]

Salaya wrote...

So, I get the words of Chris Prestley as a sign of "no return" to the old art style (or some kind of step back and make changes a bit less radical). Now I'm sad.

I understand perfectly the need of making a new art style, distinct from regular-basis fantasy context. But I wish you keep in mind that acomplishing that does not mean that you have reached a "good" art style.

Yes, beauty is in the eye of oneself, but art directions are also subject for evaluation, and, as many aspects of DA2, its being polarized. Maybe you should take this in cosideration, and try to reach a compromise between public opinions and "being" different and unique. For me, I sincerely doubt that I buy DA3 if you keep that... appearence for elves.

(Maybe that sounded way too belligerent; I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect, but I really dislike the new art, and I think it's obvious that I'm not exactly alone in this)

Not belligerent at all.  You're telling it like it is.

I agree that Elves probably shouldn't look like humans with pointed ears  (DA:O's version).  But  making them look like  Aliens from some cheap sci-fi flick is NOT my idea of an artful solution.  They're hideous looking.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 28 août 2011 - 12:16 .

[Brockololly]

Just because something is "new" or "changed" doesn't make it more distinctive or "better." I think Dragon Age 2 looks pretty damn terrible art wise. Not that Origin was perfect by any stretch but despite being a bit "generic" it at least created a cohesive looking world. Meanwhile, DA2 simply slaps a coat of khaki/tan paint on everything, tosses on some spikes/feathers, jaggy/blocky edges on every single thing and calls it a day. There is no sense of uniqueness within the world- everything blends together. So there is no longer as much variation in the clothing/architecture of  the elves as opposed to the dwarves or the different nationalities of humans. It all blends together.


Sure, Morrigan had a unique look in Origins and that made sense since she sort of lived in the middle of no where and likely had to make her clothing herself? Whereas most other people in civilization don't necessarily get custom crafted clothing and armor? Would it makes sense for Sten to be fully decked out in elaborate Qunari armor when sitting in his cage when you first meet him? Or for Leliana to be decked out in some Sacred Ashes type outfit when you first meet her in Lothering? No, and giving the companions normal clothing when the story calls for it makes them feel like they're part of the larger world and not special little flowers that stand out like a sore thumb amidst the N-64 level background characters.


And quite frankly, DA2 does not even look that much more unique or stand apart from other games beyond looking especially ugly now. While DA2 looked generic at times, it felt cohesive within the game world. Deus Ex Human Revolution does a good job of not only having a cohesive look, but differentiating that look between different areas and characters. Thats a game with solid art design and also lackluster graphics on a technical level.


I maintain that DA did not need a massive change in art style but simply needed a some of the designs to be tweaked, with the massive overhaul in being able to make the game look technically better looking. The change in art style is an attempted band aid to disguise the lackluster graphics on a technical level.

[Atakuma]

Yrkoon wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

And I disagree. While the art for DAO was good, it was not distinctive. DA II had a distinctive style.

Well of course  DA2's art style looked distinctive.    No other RPG in the world would ever  deign to make deadly, blight-causing monsters look  like comedy-relief.  Congrats on that.



Hopefully, for DA3, your  art goal will be:   to make things  look GOOD, or BETTER.   But I digress, everyone else is doing that.  And you guys don't want to be like everyone else.    That wouldn't be very distinctive!

Good job, being childish and belligerent is sure to make them take you seriously.

[TEWR]

Brockololly wrote...

Just because something is "new" or "changed" doesn't make it more distinctive or "better." I think Dragon Age 2 looks pretty damn terrible art wise. Not that Origin was perfect by any stretch but despite being a bit "generic" it at least created a cohesive looking world. Meanwhile, DA2 simply slaps a coat of khaki/tan paint on everything, tosses on some spikes/feathers, jaggy/blocky edges on every single thing and calls it a day. There is no sense of uniqueness within the world- everything blends together. So there is no longer as much variation in the clothing/architecture of  the elves as opposed to the dwarves or the different nationalities of humans. It all blends together.


Sure, Morrigan had a unique look in Origins and that made sense since she sort of lived in the middle of no where and likely had to make her clothing herself? Whereas most other people in civilization don't necessarily get custom crafted clothing and armor? Would it makes sense for Sten to be fully decked out in elaborate Qunari armor when sitting in his cage when you first meet him? Or for Leliana to be decked out in some Sacred Ashes type outfit when you first meet her in Lothering? No, and giving the companions normal clothing when the story calls for it makes them feel like they're part of the larger world and not special little flowers that stand out like a sore thumb amidst the N-64 level background characters.


And quite frankly, DA2 does not even look that much more unique or stand apart from other games beyond looking especially ugly now. While DA2 looked generic at times, it felt cohesive within the game world. Deus Ex Human Revolution does a good job of not only having a cohesive look, but differentiating that look between different areas and characters. Thats a game with solid art design and also lackluster graphics on a technical level.


I maintain that DA did not need a massive change in art style but simply needed a some of the designs to be tweaked, with the massive overhaul in being able to make the game look technically better looking. The change in art style is an attempted band aid to disguise the lackluster graphics on a technical level.

If they wanted to give each companions unique appearances in DAII, they just needed to give us a unique armor set in their companion quests that fit with the idea of who that character was. Or in some characters' cases, a better version of their original look (Varric)

Hell I was able to give each of my companions in Origins their own unique appearance. Alistair wore Templar style Armor, Sten wore Heavy Plate Armor that Mikhael sold, Oghren got the Legion of the Dead armor, Wynne was in her Senior Enchanter armor, and Morrigan in her robes.

Granted, Origins didn't have a wide variety of Rogue armor, which DAII did give us a nice assortment of.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Maybe the devs succeeded on distinctiveness re: companions (but at the cost of customizability, which didn't need to be the case, as Priestly proved himself by bringing up Morrigan's distinctiveness despite her customizability), but as far as the art style itself goes, I don't know how different it really is.

-It's more colorful than Origins, a bit.
-There was a lot of marketing speak about "stylistic use of negative space" or, for a more cynical translation, "who cares about them books, anyway?" But I didn't notice a great deal of difference in terms of detail. Aside from the re-used areas and furniture people indicating not much love or care being put into area design in general. Though some of the structures are fairly impressive.
-The combat is "amped up."

The most noticeable change is the combat... which I hope will be a bit more, as they have started saying now, "fluid" going forward. Beyond that, if Origins wasn't all that distinctive, neither was DA2, really. And if you didn't hate Origins' style, I think you're blowing the difference of style way out of proportion here... there's not much of a difference conceptually, really. The biggest differences are in execution (lack of love for area design as mentioned, some ill-conceived combat animations-- both of which they have stated their intention for improvement).

Oh yeah, race difference. I'm fine with pretty much all of those. Though the darkspawn need tweaking. But not reversion. Reversion bad.

I think some Darkspawn should revert more or less, but I agree not a total reversion.

[Yrkoon]

Atakuma wrote...

Good job, being childish and belligerent is sure to make them take you seriously.

LOL   I'm what, the 3rd person on this thread  to be called "childish"  for giving DA2's crap art style  the 'belligerence" it deserves?


  But I get it.   It's my lifelong goal to be "taken seriously" by a Dev like Chris Priestly, who's  done nothing on this thread but tow the 6 month old company line about "distinctive art".

Modifié par Yrkoon, 28 août 2011 - 12:45 .

[Savber100]

I think more diverse-looking environments and a darker style is what the pro-DA:O-style crowd wants.

You made a distinctive art style? Great. Now show us the full power of what it can do. Give us varied environments and a grittier world with the DA2 artstyle

I enjoyed the original approach to be a dark, high fantasy similar to Game of Thrones. DA2 wanted to be distinctive but seem to unnecessarily strip away the dark tone that many Origin fans loved. Here's to hoping that this gritty style would be adapted into the look of DA3.

Modifié par Savber100, 28 août 2011 - 12:46 .

[Monica21]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If they wanted to give each companions unique appearances in DAII, they just needed to give us a unique armor set in their companion quests that fit with the idea of who that character was. Or in some characters' cases, a better version of their original look (Varric).

I don't really mind not being able to change companion armors, but I agree. I think they could have done the same thing in Origins too though. Again, there's all this talk of guys in metal plate, but "generic" certainly wasn't the impression I got from the Sacred Ashes trailer. With all the clamoring from people wanting Leliana's armor they could have just added it to Leliana's Song and restricted it to her in Origins. The character concept art from Origins was certainly unique, but none of it was in the game.

Hell I was able to give each of my companions in Origins their own unique appearance. Alistair wore Templar style Armor, Sten wore Heavy Plate Armor that Mikhael sold, Oghren got the Legion of the Dead armor, Wynne was in her Senior Enchanter armor, and Morrigan in her robes.

I did this too. Alistair almost always ends up in the Warden Commander armor.

Granted, Origins didn't have a wide variety of Rogue armor, which DAII did give us a nice assortment of.

I'm very grateful for this as I usually play rogues. 

[Atakuma]

deleted

Modifié par Atakuma, 28 août 2011 - 12:56 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Chris Priestly wrote...

And I disagree. While the art for DAO was good, it was not distinctive. DA II had a distinctive style.

To illustrate, think of cosplay. For DAO pretty much the only cosplay we had was Morrigan. The reason being, she was pretty much the only defineable character. The man, unless you happen to look like Alistair or whomever, were just guys in suits of armor. They could have been DAO, they could have been LotR.

So...this elf is from LoTR just because of the armour?

Hard to say. Now we get Isabelas and Aveines and Flemeths, but we also get Hawkes, Varrics, Fenrises... Fenri... a bunch of Fenris.

Well, yeah, but Bioware didn't have a cosplay competition before DA2 came out either. Perhaps you might have been surprised. DA:O NPC 'costumes' might not have been iconic, but fans still have their ideas of what the default character image should be.

YOU may not like it as much, and that always comes down to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", but the art was changed to make it destinct from other fantasy games, and it accomplished that very well.

I just don't want to see the companions' art style go so far into 'distinct' territory that they're given bizarre features purely to make them stand out so they can be called iconic. Alistair's non-existent armour design may be such that looking at this you see only some dude in armour, but despite the fact he can change clothes whenever the Warden tells him his current set is starting to smell he's one of the most beloved and recognised characters in the fandom.

DA2 achieved making its companions distinct, I agree. But when every other fantasy series is set on making their characters visually iconic, maybe there's something to be said for a game that allows the player to choose between a set costume and being able to decide on their companions' armour in one of the games they buy. If it's as simple as giving an iconic costume to each character a la Morrigan in DA:O as well as allowing the PC to order a clothes change, that'd be pure awesome. But the market is saturated with (forced) 'iconic', and joining the club will not make Dragon Age distinct, even if it makes for apparently better cosplay.

Edit: An on the subject of darkspawn, to be perfectly honest I don't find the DA:O style any more or less distinctive than the DA2 style (except maybe the Emissaries, who are now so distinctive it's hard to take them seriously), but I just know I prefer the style of Origins for them. They definitely looked more icky and menacing in the first game.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 28 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[Elhanan]

For myself, again I would prefer a mix of both going forward.

I enjoyed the DAO Darkspawn and Elves, and much pref the DA2 version of Flemeth. I thought that Ostagar from DAO was an amazing piece of artistry, and took many screenies with several characters. In DA2, the Wounded Coast shoreline was breathtaking, and the Chantry, Viscount Hold, and many of the cutscenes were outstanding.

Color me pleased....

[TEWR]

Monica21 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If they wanted to give each companions unique appearances in DAII, they just needed to give us a unique armor set in their companion quests that fit with the idea of who that character was. Or in some characters' cases, a better version of their original look (Varric).

I don't really mind not being able to change companion armors, but I agree. I think they could have done the same thing in Origins too though. Again, there's all this talk of guys in metal plate, but "generic" certainly wasn't the impression I got from the Sacred Ashes trailer. With all the clamoring from people wanting Leliana's armor they could have just added it to Leliana's Song and restricted it to her in Origins. The character concept art from Origins was certainly unique, but none of it was in the game.

Hell I was able to give each of my companions in Origins their own unique appearance. Alistair wore Templar style Armor, Sten wore Heavy Plate Armor that Mikhael sold, Oghren got the Legion of the Dead armor, Wynne was in her Senior Enchanter armor, and Morrigan in her robes.

I did this too. Alistair almost always ends up in the Warden Commander armor.

Granted, Origins didn't have a wide variety of Rogue armor, which DAII did give us a nice assortment of.

I'm very grateful for this as I usually play rogues. 

To be fair, it wouldn't have really worked with some of the Origins companion quests. How would Alistair get his unique armor? Goldanna is poor and a bitter woman.

Though I guess Return to Ostagar could've given him a unique armor set.

And Leliana's song definitely should've made the Battledress of the Provocateur be Leliana's Sacred Ashes appearance.

Generally, I put the Warden Commander armor on my Wardens since they assume that mantle, though I eventually take that off because it won't go over to Awakening. I do wish Warden's Keep had given us a secondary base, where the companions do their own thing in the fortress, along with giving the Warden the ability to conscript people. Not so much gain companions, but just conscript people.

Sten could've been on the bridge looking towards the distance. Alistair, Dog, and Oghren could've been in the kitchen. Wynne and Morrigan could've been in the library reading books. Zevran could've been outside, and Leliana could've been near Andraste's statue. Avernus would be working in his tower.

[mousestalker]

Some of us play for the pretty costumes. I know that's part of the reason I play. A game that lets me customize is a game that I will a) replay (which admittedly adds nothing to the game maker's bottom line) and will rave about to other people (which absolutely adds to the bottom line). I want my character to fit an image I create. I want to alter npc's who are under my influence as well. Some alterations are due to my personal quirks (I must get into every locked chest in game), some are to better reflect how my character sees the npc and some are due to my inner munchkin being out again.

Irrespective of the reason, being able to alter things increases immersion and investiture for the player.

TL;DNR?: Player made changes are good.

[TEWR]

@Shadow of Light Dragon: I pretty much approve of the new emissary look, but I want them to drop the elf ears and the S&M gear on the face.

[Atakuma]

I don't think the lack of companion customization has anything to do with the art style. It could be that it was all they could do given the constraints.

[Monica21]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

And I disagree. While the art for DAO was good, it was not distinctive. DA II had a distinctive style.

To illustrate, think of cosplay. For DAO pretty much the only cosplay we had was Morrigan. The reason being, she was pretty much the only defineable character. The man, unless you happen to look like Alistair or whomever, were just guys in suits of armor. They could have been DAO, they could have been LotR.

So...this elf is from LoTR just because of the armour?

Hard to say. Now we get Isabelas and Aveines and Flemeths, but we also get Hawkes, Varrics, Fenrises... Fenri... a bunch of Fenris.

Well, yeah, but Bioware didn't have a cosplay competition before DA2 came out either. Perhaps you might have been surprised. DA:O NPC 'costumes' might not have been iconic, but fans still have their ideas of what the default character image should be.

YOU may not like it as much, and that always comes down to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", but the art was changed to make it destinct from other fantasy games, and it accomplished that very well.

I just don't want to see the companions' art style go so far into 'distinct' territory that they're given bizarre features purely to make them stand out so they can be called iconic. Alistair's non-existent armour design may be such that looking at this you see only some dude in armour, but despite the fact he can change clothes whenever the Warden tells him his current set is starting to smell he's one of the most beloved and recognised characters in the fandom.

DA2 achieved making its companions distinct, I agree. But when every other fantasy series is set on making their characters visually iconic, maybe there's something to be said for a game that allows the player to choose between a set costume and being able to decide on their companions' armour in one of the games they buy. If it's as simple as giving an iconic costume to each character a la Morrigan in DA:O as well as allowing the PC to order a clothes change, that'd be pure awesome. But the market is saturated with (forced) 'iconic', and joining the club will not make Dragon Age distinct, even if it makes for apparently better cosplay.

Edit: An on the subject of darkspawn, to be perfectly honest I don't find the DA:O style any more or less distinctive than the DA2 style (except maybe the Emissaries, who are now so distinctive it's hard to take them seriously), but I just know I prefer the style of Origins for them. They definitely looked more icky and menacing in the first game.

Everything you said, and that's an awesome Legolas Zevran.

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...

much pref the DA2 version of Flemeth.

This one's a mixed bag for me.  Mainly because Flemeth is such an enigmatic character.  Is she supposed  to be a sexy milf with a near perfect body, and hair so thick and flowing that she  puts half of it up in horn-ponytails??  Because if so, then yes.    Her art style for DA2 fit her perfectly, and much better than it was for DA:O.

But the problem I have,  is that everywhere else in the series, she's portrayed as an old woman,  a crone.  a wise, serious, and venerated ancient figure.  Even her voice projects that  vibe.  And that fits with her old art style.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 28 août 2011 - 01:16 .

[TEWR]

Yrkoon wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

much pref the DA2 version of Flemeth.

This one's a mixed bag for me.  Mainly because Flemeth is such an enigmatic character.  Is she supposed to be a sexy milf with a near perfect body, and hair so thick and flowing that she  puts half of it up in horn-ponytails??  Because if so, then yes.    Her art style for DA2 fit her perfectly, and much better than it was for DA:O.

But the problem I have, though,  is that everywhere else in the series, she's portrayed as a fearsome old woman, wise, sertious, and venerable.  Even her voice projects that  vibe.  And that fits with her old art style.

She's a shapeshifter who dons the crazy old bat disguise when she isn't trying to reveal her power. I imagine that her new look is her more preferred look, especially considering she just cooked dozens of Darkspawn in Dragon form. Most people would expect something that can shapeshift into a dragon to look just as threatening in normal form. An old, fragile, and seemingly senile woman doesn't convey that.

Bodies are such limiting things. --- Flemeth

It applies to her new look.