3405 réponses à ce sujet

[souljahbill]

IMO, Slam should be more forceful and cause more damage then throw. Heavy Slam isn't even as powerful as Throw Field despite the fact that you are slamming an enemy, sometimes from crazy heights. I've used pull on an adversary as Lift, basically, before hitting them with Slam and after the enemy bounced after a 50-ft forceful fall, get up and start shooting again. Crippling Slam should be as strong as Heavy Throw and Heavy Slam should be 1600 Newtons or something like that.

[Gromnir]

blitzkkrieg wrote...

I will once again propose my inquiry if Concussive Shot + Warp ammo will cause the warp detonation along with the the regular explosion of CS. 

Also, on the topic of CS, I know that the ammo type is worked into CS to affect how well it performs, but does that mean it basically gets the effect from the ammo?  So a disruptor ammo-fied CS would do 100 base damage of CS and then + x% (as specified by disruptor ammo) to shields and mechs?  Either way, I'm going to have alot of fun with the soldier this time around, especially now that cryo ammo has some extra perks to it. 

I gotta say, all the classes look pretty fun.  Now let's just see what Vanguard and Infiltrator get

edit: assuming warp ammo will once again be available as a bonus power

I'm very curious about how CS will work with ammo powers as well.  I don't think there's any reason to suspect CS+warp ammo for warp detonation however, since that's not how warp ammo works (unless there's an evolution).

Looking at the second post in this thread, it looks like a rank 4 CS will do 1/2 the damage and have 1/2 the recharge of a rank 4 warp or incinerate, assuming you take the damage evolutions.  153dmg@3.2s  vs 306dmg@6.4s.

What isn't explained is incinerate/warp/overload multipliers vs armor/barrier/shields, and if CS has any multipliers of its own.  Also to be seen is what types of upgrades are available for tech and biotic powers, and if combat powers will get some attention.  The lack of combat power upgrades in ME2 made CS just a terrible power.  CS as presented in ME2 would have been balanced with a 3s recharge or if weapon upgrades were applied.

I'm hoping CS is reasonably balanced vs the direct damage powers above, once upgrades, multipliers, and the handling of ammo powers are considered.  The dedicated powers should retain some advantages over CS: incinerate appears to start with an AoE, warp gets its explosions, and overload doesn't have much info right now.  The advantage of CS would be impact force and versatility...which would take investment in multiple skills.

Modifié par Gromnir, 07 septembre 2011 - 03:20 .

[Gromnir]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Overload also overheats weapons, which can come in handy.

Not really. Why would you use a 6 second power when you can use a 3 (or 4.5) second power that will disable tagets a lot longer (and potentially doubling weapon damage)? Using Overload to overheat is like using Pull to take down shields - you can do it, but it's not very effective.

I didn't like ME2 Energy Drain to outclass Overload; nor did I like the option for non-biotic classes to use the most powerful biotic abilities available in ME2 (Stasis & Reave). Bonus powers should give classes extra flexibility, but they should not make class-powers redundant. I hope this will change in ME3. 

"Good" bonus powers are Slam and Neural Shock - they add great utility, but without breaking class balance.

I've seen a fair number of posts bemoaning universal cooldowns.  One of the suggestions is grouping cooldowns by combat, tech, or biotic.  I dislike this for a number of reasons given how it would interact with hybrid classes and cross-type bonus power choices.

An interesting way to group powers, based on power balance in ME2, would have been:

• class exclusive - (e.g. adrenaline rush, cloak)
• bonus power
• everything else

That way, the more powerful class exclusive powers wouldn't overshadow everything else and result in spamming AR (etc) every cooldown.  The bonus powers could have a separate, fairly lengthy cooldown so that they add spice to a class without becoming a dominant strategy.  With bonus powers on a separate cooldown, overload wouldn't have to be overshadowed by energy drain since they share different cooldown timers.

[The Spamming Troll]

it makes too much sense to put biotics and techs on separate cooldowns because they arent reliant on each other whatsoever. id actually like tech and biotics to be on a separate cooldown, and remove the cooldowns from ammo powers and medigel too. just throw a vertical indicator to go along with the current horizontal indicator. ones tech and ones biotic. being a sentinel and having biotics and techs on separate cooldowns should be an advantage of being a sentinel.

theres really no reason the bonus power should be on a separate cooldown either. i dont want the bonus powers to be used more then my classes regular powers, or im just gonna have the same situation as i did in ME2, using my signature ability, and my OP bonus power, especially if its on a singular cooldown.

the adept always seems to have problems. i think singularity being on a separate cooldown would seem really weird, considering its not very different then pull or throw. i could see it working for cloak or AR or tech armor, but not singularity.

but its pretty much a gaurantee theres only going to be one cooldown in ME3. how else would they implement multiplayer in ME3?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 07 septembre 2011 - 03:23 .

[Gromnir]

Splitting tech/biotic/combat makes sense from a "realistic" standpoint of what's reliant on what, but I think it's bad from a game balance standpoint.

Also, let's say you're an engineer that takes reave...well there you go with the bonus power getting a ton of use since it's the only power on the biotic cooldown.

The idea with the separate cooldown for bonus powers is that it would be a longer cooldown. In my example, reave would still be the only power on its cooldown. But instead of the 6s(?) you could make it much longer, say 20s.

Multiplayer in ME3?  How would multiplayer work with time dilation powers.  Adrenaline rush just wouldn't play nice with more than one player.

Modifié par Gromnir, 07 septembre 2011 - 03:26 .

[Biotic Sage]

The global cooldown system isn't going anywhere at this stage in development.

I'm not against it anyway, but if I was it would be a good idea to start accepting it in order to avoid disappointment.  If you think about it too much you'll be so focused on it and irritated by it that you won't be able to focus on all of the great aspects of ME3.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 07 septembre 2011 - 03:25 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Gromnir wrote...

Splitting tech/biotic/combat makes sense from a "realistic" standpoint of what's reliant on what, but I think it's bad from a game balance standpoint.

Also, let's say you're an engineer that takes reave...well there you go with the bonus power getting a ton of use since it's the only power on the biotic cooldown.

The idea with the separate cooldown for bonus powers is that it would be a longer cooldown. In my example, reave would still be the only power on its cooldown. But instead of the 6s(?) you could make it much longer, say 20s.

Multiplayer in ME3?  How would multiplayer work with time dilation powers.  Adrenaline rush just wouldn't play nice with more than one player.

all good points. i suppose the sentinel could just double its cooldown times to counter its ability spammage potential. i highly doubt the one cooldown is going to change for ME3. bioware loves ME2 more then ME1.

i was kidding about multiplayer. its always getting brought up, sometimes i think its already in the game.

[lazuli]

Eh, it looks like Amplification will allow the Sentinel to split its cooldowns between biotic and tech skills.  Or, if it doesn't allow outright splitting of cooldowns, it will offer recharge speed bonuses for switching between power types.

[Someone With Mass]

lightsnow13 wrote...

Global cooldown actually speeds up the combat. Instead of waiting 20 sec for throw you wait 3 sec (without any cooldown bonuses).

The longest you have to wait for a power to cool down is six seconds. By the time one power has cooled down in ME1, I've fired of almost four of them in ME2. Huge improvement.

[littlezack]

I agree. I really never understood the beef a lot of people have with the global cooldowns. The only thing that's really better about the individual cooldowns is that it's easier to do combos since you can instantly rattle off one attack after the other, but you can do the same in ME2 with good timing. In ME1, I was constantly having to fall back on gunplay while the powers recharged - in ME2, I could get through levels and never fire a shot. Notsomuch on higher difficulties, true, but it seems like ME3 will be making it so biotics have more options for dealing with protections.

I think Adepts are going to be A-okay.

[lazuli]

Someone With Mass wrote...

lightsnow13 wrote...

Global cooldown actually speeds up the combat. Instead of waiting 20 sec for throw you wait 3 sec (without any cooldown bonuses).

The longest you have to wait for a power to cool down is six seconds. By the time one power has cooled down in ME1, I've fired of almost four of them in ME2. Huge improvement.

Tech Armor and other defensive powers have a 12 second cooldown, sans upgrades.

Although I prefer ME2's cooldown system over ME1's, with the proper gear and stats, you could get your cooldowns pretty low in ME1.  And ME1's system made chaining powers by yourself quite fluid.  In ME2, power chaining is still possible, but it takes a little bit longer unless you use your squad.  Still, I'd take frequency of use over ME1's system.  It looks like ME3 is marrying the two by allowing easier combos depending on power evolutions.

In ME1, it was often effective to have a handful of throwaway powers that you could use in a pinch as opposed to powers you invest in and customize like ME2 or ME3.

[The Spamming Troll]

I disagree. Me1 adepts can roll through their entire ability list without waiting for a single cooldown. By the time ive used my last power, my first one is already off cooldown. Biotics in me1 had somehing like a 9 second cooldown, but had a few more abilities to roll through. I feltmlikemyoumcan use abilities in ME1 much more frequently then ME2.

[Someone With Mass]

littlezack wrote...

I agree. I really never understood the beef a lot of people have with the global cooldowns. The only thing that's really better about the individual cooldowns is that it's easier to do combos since you can instantly rattle off one attack after the other, but you can do the same in ME2 with good timing. In ME1, I was constantly having to fall back on gunplay while the powers recharged - in ME2, I could get through levels and never fire a shot. Notsomuch on higher difficulties, true, but it seems like ME3 will be making it so biotics have more options for dealing with protections.

I think Adepts are going to be A-okay.

I think Throw can be evolved to be armor-piercing. What that means in terms of gameplay, I dunno.

[Biotic Sage]

Someone from Bioware has tweeted that after playing through as the Adept, he wants more combo potential for the class. Overhauls based on testing are in progress now, so global cooldowns or no global cooldowns, we'll be seeing some definite improvements to combo potential with or without your squad using their powers too.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 07 septembre 2011 - 10:49 .

[blitzkkrieg]

Has any information on Overpower's evolutions been released yet?

[Biotic Sage]

blitzkkrieg wrote...

Has any information on Overpower's evolutions been released yet?

Sadly no

I understand they need to hold a lot of stuff back since we are 6 months away from release, but they should at least allow us to view the Engineer demo footage they've already shown on livefeed.

[blitzkkrieg]

Agreed.  I am really looking forward to the engineer this time around, especially because it get's the new and imporved combat drone and turret.  But back to what I was saying.

For overpower, I think it would be interesting if at the final evolution one of the options would allow (for a very brief period of time) your biotics to effect protected enemies.  I think this would strike a good balance between ME1 and ME2 biotics (and I will be honest, I missed ME1 biotics; I would always play adepts on casual in ME2 just to fling people around).

[Biotic Sage]

blitzkkrieg wrote...

Agreed.  I am really looking forward to the engineer this time around, especially because it get's the new and imporved combat drone and turret.  But back to what I was saying.

For overpower, I think it would be interesting if at the final evolution one of the options would allow (for a very brief period of time) your biotics to effect protected enemies.  I think this would strike a good balance between ME1 and ME2 biotics (and I will be honest, I missed ME1 biotics; I would always play adepts on casual in ME2 just to fling people around).

That would be an interesting evolution choice.  Personally, I would opt for the lower cooldown choice every time, but I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in dealing biotic damage to protected enemies. 

I think with the evolutions from Biotic Mastery, Overpower, and each power's own evolutions which reduce cooldowns, we are going to see virtually non-existent cooldowns for a fully leveled Adept.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 08 septembre 2011 - 12:12 .

[Gromnir]

lazuli wrote...

<truncated>

Tech Armor and other defensive powers have a 12 second cooldown, sans upgrades.

Although I prefer ME2's cooldown system over ME1's, with the proper gear and stats, you could get your cooldowns pretty low in ME1.  And ME1's system made chaining powers by yourself quite fluid.  In ME2, power chaining is still possible, but it takes a little bit longer unless you use your squad.  Still, I'd take frequency of use over ME1's system.  It looks like ME3 is marrying the two by allowing easier combos depending on power evolutions.

In ME1, it was often effective to have a handful of throwaway powers that you could use in a pinch as opposed to powers you invest in and customize like ME2 or ME3.

And don't forget adrenaline burst in ME1 to shoot a volley of powers all over again.

Combat in ME1 vs ME2 is fundamentally different due to the way protections work.  In ME1, powers were almost always at least "somewhat" useful except for the few that affected only synthetics or only organics.  In ME2, most powers are only useful at specific times (eg vs certain protections, certain enemy types, or vs unprotected).  ME2 protections would be horrible with the ME1 cooldown system.  Having to wait the long cooldown for overload against a group of shielded enemies wouldn't be so good.

Separate cooldown advantages: more varied usage of skills, encourages putting points in all skills, easier combos
Separate cooldown disadvantages: penalizes player when only specific skills are effective in situation (more of an issue in ME2 due to protections), allows skill spiking

Universal cooldown advantages: allows more frequent use of effective skills and favorite skills, prevents spiking, encourages team combos
Universal cooldown disadvantages: spamming same skill repeatedly, skill balance is more important since they share cooldown

[lazuli]

Another advantage of universal cooldowns is the risk vs. reward component. While this exists to a limited extent in ME1, once you use a power in ME2 you cannot use powers until the global cooldown is complete, leaving you vulnerable. For example, "Should I use Miranda's Overload, Jacob's Pull, and then my Warp to devastate the enemies advancing on my position? Or should I save my cooldown to reapply Barrier and potentially save my life?" ME1 does not feature the same compelling vulnerability.

[Ahglock]

lazuli wrote...

Another advantage of universal cooldowns is the risk vs. reward component. While this exists to a limited extent in ME1, once you use a power in ME2 you cannot use powers until the global cooldown is complete, leaving you vulnerable. For example, "Should I use Miranda's Overload, Jacob's Pull, and then my Warp to devastate the enemies advancing on my position? Or should I save my cooldown to reapply Barrier and potentially save my life?" ME1 does not feature the same compelling vulnerability.

If the powers were balanced it might be a compelling feature.  The problem is far too many classes in ME2 had their big gun power which vastly outstripped every other power they had in power and the choice was basically non-existent.  Press 1, oh the cooldown is up well I better press 1 again.  Hopefully ME3 will do more to make powers balanced or at least more situational so 4-5 of the 6 classes aren't just one button wonders, well 2 with the shoot button.  

[lazuli]

Yeah, Ahglock, that is one of the dangers of the global cooldown system. I don't think the global cooldown system is perfect by any means, but I prefer it to ME1's system. My hope is that with the new abilities that manipulate cooldowns we will see more diverse gameplay and builds.

But you're absolutely right about signature powers trumping almost everything else in Shepard's arsenal. I would say the two classes that this affects most are Vanguard and Soldier. With the Vanguard, I don't even really mind because Charge is just so much fun to use. What else am I going to use? Shockwave? For the Soldier it's a similar dilemma. Concussive Shot is less than tempting in ME2. I don't find it as much of a problem for the Infiltrator because Cloak comes with prolonged downtime, so it isn't always a clear winner in terms of cooldown use.

[The Spamming Troll]

Biotic Sage wrote...

blitzkkrieg wrote...

Agreed.  I am really looking forward to the engineer this time around, especially because it get's the new and imporved combat drone and turret.  But back to what I was saying.

For overpower, I think it would be interesting if at the final evolution one of the options would allow (for a very brief period of time) your biotics to effect protected enemies.  I think this would strike a good balance between ME1 and ME2 biotics (and I will be honest, I missed ME1 biotics; I would always play adepts on casual in ME2 just to fling people around).

That would be an interesting evolution choice.  Personally, I would opt for the lower cooldown choice every time, but I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in dealing biotic damage to protected enemies. 

yes, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

Biotic Sage wrote...

That would be an interesting evolution choice.  Personally, I would opt for the lower cooldown choice every time, but I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in dealing biotic damage to protected enemies. 

That's very unlikely going to happen. From what I've seen so far, ME3 uses the same "protection" system as ME2. Which means the color of the topmost bar determines which powers are very effective and which are not. (Biotic) powers that would negate defenses would allow the player to toss around Atlas mechs like flies - that would be game-breakingly OP. That's not going to happen (at least I hope not).

It's more likely something that will improve the damage biotic powers do against protected enemies - that would make using those (evolved) powers a more viable option. A power such as Throw might inflict decent damage to the target regardless protection; it might even negate protection and damage the target's health bar; it's unlikely going to put the target on his/her arse - that's way too powerful. 

I think with the evolutions from Biotic Mastery, Overpower, and each power's own evolutions which reduce cooldowns, we are going to see virtually non-existent cooldowns for a fully leveled Adept.

I wouldn't like to see that either. Mass Effect combat revolves around shooting and using special abilities combined (not one or the other). When classes can ignore weaponry, the game designers have broken their own preset rules - that's a mortal sin in terms of design.

Having the option to drastically reduce cooldown for a limited amount of time - great. But weapons should be an indispensable part of every class's combat potential.