3405 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

implodinggoat wrote...

Now I'll agree that protection is more of a pain in the ass to crowd control focused classes particularly the Adept; but it definitely beats the alternative of the ME1 system where Biotics allowed you to instantly incapacitate any enemy on the battlefield and besides if that's the experience you really want then you can always turn the difficulty down so that most enemies don't have defenses.

The Adept does need more options against enemies with protection and hopefully the ME3 version of biotic powers will provide those options; but going back to the semi omnipotence of the ME1 Adept isn't the answer.

who is advocating for ME1 biotics? i agree, everyone agrees.

i dare you to answer this:  is it a bad idea to make evolutions of your biotics that work on protections?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 18 janvier 2012 - 02:39 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Omega-202 wrote...

So, despite all of this time, Spamming Troll still doesn't realize that NO class is supposed to be functional without using their guns and that every class was and is being designed to be used with guns and powers in conjunction.

Adepts will never be competitive or possibly even viable without relying on shooting. No class is. Accept that.

And don't you dare start on "But that's not the way it should be". BS and "who-cares?" is all I can say to that.

then i want biotics to enhance my weapons instead of being worthless.

<3

[implodinggoat]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i dare you to answer this:  is it a bad idea to make evolutions of your biotics that work on protections?

No, I'd say its a pretty good idea if you balance it properly.

I'd say evolutions that increase the degree to which the powers STAGGER enemies with protection or which increase the amount of damage dealt to enemies with protection could be appropriately applied to Shockwave, Singularity, or Throw.   I don't think it would be right for Pull or Slam; but aside from that it would work pretty well.

In fact making Shockwave particularly effective at staggering enemies with protection would be a very good alteration since it was largely useless in ME2.

That said I don't think that any evolution should make your biotics fully effective on enemies with protection with the exception of Stasis since it keeps you from doing damage to enemies effected by it.   Being able to stagger an entire wave of protected husks with shockwave seems perfectly reasonable to me; but you should have to drop their protection if you want to send them flying like bowling pins.

[The Spamming Troll]

yup, another ability that really only makes me want to play the vangaurd more....sure, shockwwave rules, so does charge, nova, more weapons, weapon mods, and pull aint to shabby etiher. all functional abilities. the adept gets redundant throwaways, less weapons, a lackluster signature ability, and he prolly needs to wear bifocals too! unless the adept can have comboing be awesome, or armor peircing throw works exactly as labeled. ill puke if armor peircing throw *doesnt* peirce armor. if stasis is an uber effective CC biotic ability, and isnt even part of the adepts regular setup, i dont get it. shouldnt the classes already be the best before bonus powers?

im really kidding myself here. its not like the adept has ever been the best biotic in either game anyways.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 18 janvier 2012 - 03:57 .

[Ahglock]

MELTOR13 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I had a long paragraph written up in reply, but I've been down this road, and I know it's an exercise in futility. So I'll just let you sharpen that axe some more, Spamming.

fine, lets not argue about mass effect!

wheres no snakes alive?

hehe.   

The whole 'biotic charging' of a grenade at least sounds a LITTLE BIT cool, right?? I mean, c'mon. Throw me a bone. 

It sounds kind of cool to me, but I'm a gambit fan.  Though I will say it doesn't work well unless they describe it that way and even then it makes you wonder why you need grenades, and not just playing cards.  But without their description saying biotic grenade is like gambits power it is about as valid as me saying the soldier is a wizard because I'm shooting lighting out of my guns.  

A coiuple quick examples of what they could of done all of which would of felt more biotic to me, and are going under the assumtion every class needs a power outside of the global cooldown.

1.  Storm,  You send a unstable biotic field into your active signularity reducing its durartion by X seconds but all enemies within Y meters take Z damage from electrictal discharges it is especially effective vs shields.

2.  Shards.  You shatter the barrier protecting you into a thousand razor sharp blades of biotic force and rain them down upon your enemies. 

3.  Biotic Field:  You disperse your persoanl biotic barrier and expand it so it covers all your allies within X meter.s

And I'm sure if they spent all of 2 or 3 minutes actually thnking about it they could come up with more all of which would be more aporpriate than a biotic grenade.  Which we all know wont be gambits power.  

Any spelling/gramar errors more than my usual are caused by booze.  

[implodinggoat]

I can understand your frustration Troll. Adept had more problems than any other class in ME2 and the changes made to the Adept for ME3 are less intriguing than the changes made to other classes (I'm very pleased by the changes made to concussive shot).

Overpower sounded a lot more interesting than the biotic grenade does. Its a pity they couldn't get it working properly.

I don't know why they can't just offset the improvements overpower grants to the cooldown damage and duration of your powers by penalizing the rate at which your barriers regenerate. The idea of giving the Adept a Berserker mode really shouldn't be too hard to implement considering the fact that Bioware has implemented similar powers in numerous other games.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 18 janvier 2012 - 04:22 .

[jasonsantanna]

Not to get off topic but has everyone seen the xbox kinect ME3 demo. . .  it shows Vega using carnage and demo users giving commands  even changing weapons by voice command
http://www.gamesradar.com/mass-effect-3-hands-preview-it-feels-1-and-2-are-just-prologue/

[AVPen]

jasonsantanna wrote...

Not to get off topic but has everyone seen the xbox kinect ME3 demo. . .  it shows Vega using carnage and demo users giving commands  even changing weapons by voice command
http://www.gamesradar.com/mass-effect-3-hands-preview-it-feels-1-and-2-are-just-prologue/

Seen it, seems pretty consistent with the description that I came across for the power.
(little sidenote about that video, but if it turns out that the demo's release date got pushed back because EA or whoever wanted to added Kinect functionalty to the demo for 360 players, I'm gonna be royally pissed.... <_<)


Took the night off from searching through the leaks for Powers to play the Amalur demo (and get the Chakram Launcher/Reckoner Armor for ME3  ) - last I talked to Fathom, he was gonna search through for Biotic Powers from ME2 and class passives, but I'll still look through those as well for myself.

Modifié par AVPen, 18 janvier 2012 - 04:51 .

[Biotic Sage]

AVPen wrote...

jasonsantanna wrote...

Not to get off topic but has everyone seen the xbox kinect ME3 demo. . .  it shows Vega using carnage and demo users giving commands  even changing weapons by voice command
http://www.gamesradar.com/mass-effect-3-hands-preview-it-feels-1-and-2-are-just-prologue/

Seen it, seems pretty consistent with the description that I came across for the power.
(little sidenote about that video, but if it turns out that the demo's release date got pushed back because EA or whoever wanted to added Kinect functionalty to the demo for 360 players, I'm gonna be royally pissed.... <_<)


Took the night off from searching through the leaks for Powers to play the Amalur demo (and get the Chakram Launcher/Reckoner Armor for ME3  ) - last I talked to Fathom, he was gonna search through for Biotic Powers from ME2 and class passives, but I'll still look through those as well for myself.

I've got most of your stuff incorporated into my original posts, but I will continue to work on it.  Thanks for all of your help!  I'm just wondering how I didn't see any of this in the leaked script I read...there must be a more comprehensive version of it.  Apparently EA/Bioware erased its existence, however, because I can't find it anywhere.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 18 janvier 2012 - 05:01 .

[Biotic Sage]

Fathom72 wrote...

Yep, AVPen is referencing the same source as me. I've sent him a PM asking if he's interested in splitting the available powers, so that there's less for each of us to sift through.

Edit: So yeah, we'll be working together, to save time/prevent each other from covering powers the other person is researching.

You guys rock!  All of us power geeks are very excited about all of this new info.  I can finally start my builds!

[Vapaa]

I tried to read the last posts but I'm getting more confused, but I understand that the new adept power is a (biotic) grenade....I think it's fine (in fact it was my first assumption before I heard about overpower), but since the Sentinel also gets a biotic grenade, what's the known difference between the two "unique" grenade ?

[Biotic Sage]

Vapaä wrote...

I tried to read the last posts but I'm getting more confused, but I understand that the new adept power is a (biotic) grenade....I think it's fine (in fact it was my first assumption before I heard about overpower), but since the Sentinel also gets a biotic grenade, what's the known difference between the two "unique" grenade ?

Sentinel: Lift Grenade - lifts all enemies in the radius into the air

Adept: Biotic/Cluster Grenade - explodes with a great amount of biotic force

[MELTOR13]

 I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's easy to sit here and be an armchair-designer. To sit here and call them lazy is simply ignorant. 

Overpower was taken out for a reason...they couldn't get it to work like they wanted it to. Given that there are a much larger amount of powers in ME3 than there are in ME2 (and even ME1, it seems like), it's likely pretty damn difficult to balance EVERY single one of those powers, not only within themselves, but then also under the effects of Overpower. 

It's easy to toss out ideas on paper, but I can assure you it's most likely MUCH, much harder than we all make it sound here in the forums. But the gameplay designers cant just walk into these forums and start grilling us because then the "fans" here get all pissy. We're allowed to flay them alive for their ideas or implementations, but they would NEVER be allowed to come back here and lay the smackdown on us. 

So I'll take what I can get and trust their judgement. ME2 was thoroughly enjoyable and provided a great gameplay experience (IMO)...and ME3 seems to be only expanding on that experience with more power evolutions, more powers, new powers, weapons, etc. etc. 

If you disagree....well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

[Biotic Sage]

^ I'm sure they have their reasons, I'm understanding about that. Personally I just think the concept for Overpower was much more interesting than the Biotic Grenade concept. If they couldn't get it to work, then that's a shame. I can't pretend to know how much effort they put in trying to get it to work so no judgments there. What I can judge though is Biotic Grenade is not to my taste because I don't think it fits the Adept's style. I think they could've come up with a new, better biotic power than that. I know a lot of people on the forums have thought of some cool ideas.  But again, it's a matter of taste, so it's only my subjective opinion that Biotic Grenade sucks as a power.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 18 janvier 2012 - 05:28 .

[implodinggoat]

MELTOR13 wrote...

 I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's easy to sit here and be an armchair-designer. To sit here and call them lazy is simply ignorant. 

I didn't call them lazy,  I just said that I don't understand why they couldn't get Overpower to balance out.   There are numerous reasons why it might not have worked out.  I just wish that the devs had given a specific reason/reasons for why it was cut rather than just saying "it didn't work out the way we wanted it to".

The alterations they've made to all the other classes sound great,  I'm just not particularly impressed with what I've seen of the Adept.   That said I haven't played the game so my opinion is highly speculative.

[luckyloser_62]

Any word on the Engineers class power? I'm really hoping they get a good bonus to power damage and tech combos as part of their passive, it would really help to make them amazing. I'm really looking forward to the combo potential of tech powers in ME3 that seems to be present from what we have seen. I am also hoping Reave may be evolved to create explosions like warp. Now that both sentinel and Adept are able to create their own combos I think it would only be fair for vanguards to create their own combos as well, albeit with a bonus power.

[Omega-202]

implodinggoat wrote...

I didn't call them lazy,  I just said that I don't understand why they couldn't get Overpower to balance out.   There are numerous reasons why it might not have worked out.  I just wish that the devs had given a specific reason/reasons for why it was cut rather than just saying "it didn't work out the way we wanted it to".

The fact of the matter is that a reason may not be the best way to convey the issue to the fans.  

For all we know, the power may have worked perfectly fine and was perfectly balanced.  Its effect on playstyle may have been counter to what they wanted.

EX:  "Nothing was wrong with Overpower's balance or design or implementation but its effect on gameplay and pacing was an overall hindrance to what we had hoped for."
  - If they posted this, would you accept that answer or would you expect that there would be a lot of fans foaming at the mouth about how unfair it is for them to dictate that to us.  

It could be the same issue as the dropped hybrid ammo system.  It worked fine.  It was balanced.  It led to a gameplay style that the devs didn't want.  And yet we're still dealing with the aftermath of it today.  

By not telling us what was wrong with Overpower, we can be mollified by just knowing it was for the best in their judgement.  

Lets just leave it at that.  

[AVPen]

Overpower is still listed in the leaked script, along with all of it's evolutions - even though the power is no longer a part of the Adept's power list in ME3, I'll still list the power and its ranks here purely for reference sake (aka, "In the name of Science"  ):


Overpower   (For a short duration, you enter a heightened biotic state, enabling you to launch multiple powers.)
2nd Rank
Recharge   Increases the recharge speed of Overpower by x% 

3rd Rank
Duration   Increases the duration of Overpower by x%.

4th Rank
Power Duration   While under the effects of Overpower, the duration of your powers is increased by x%.
OR
Damage/Force   Increases the damage and force of powers cast during Overpower by x%.

5th Rank
Duration   Increases the duration of Overpower by x%.
OR
First Strike   The first power cast during Overpower causes no global cooldown.

6th Rank
Time Slow   Increases the amount the world is slowed by x%.
OR
Detonation   Biotic detonations do x% more damage and force and increase Overpower's duration by x seconds.

Modifié par AVPen, 18 janvier 2012 - 05:57 .

[MELTOR]

implodinggoat wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

 I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's easy to sit here and be an armchair-designer. To sit here and call them lazy is simply ignorant. 

I didn't call them lazy,  I just said that I don't understand why they couldn't get Overpower to balance out.   There are numerous reasons why it might not have worked out.  I just wish that the devs had given a specific reason/reasons for why it was cut rather than just saying "it didn't work out the way we wanted it to".

The alterations they've made to all the other classes sound great,  I'm just not particularly impressed with what I've seen of the Adept.   That said I haven't played the game so my opinion is highly speculative.

Wasn't really pointing my post towards you....there are, um, others here on the forums who have stronger feelings towards issues like this. I wish we had some more specific answers as well, and we may very well get them eventually, but I am not going to sit here and act like I have all the answers. 

That's all I was getting at. Again, not necessarily pointed at anyone in particular...just wanted to note that the whole system is far more intricate than 'do this, fix that, this is stupid'. The, uh, "fans" here tend to forget that sometimes. 

[MELTOR]

Biotic Sage wrote...

^ I'm sure they have their reasons, I'm understanding about that. Personally I just think the concept for Overpower was much more interesting than the Biotic Grenade concept. If they couldn't get it to work, then that's a shame. I can't pretend to know how much effort they put in trying to get it to work so no judgments there. What I can judge though is Biotic Grenade is not to my taste because I don't think it fits the Adept's style. I think they could've come up with a new, better biotic power than that. I know a lot of people on the forums have thought of some cool ideas.  But again, it's a matter of taste, so it's only my subjective opinion that Biotic Grenade sucks as a power.

Oh yeah, I could rattle off a ****ton of cool-sounding powers too, but again, it all goes back into the design of the game. A power like a biotic grenade may be simple to implement but still have some really cool effects and some depth (think Flashbang grenade from ME2). Whereas we could think up all kinds of cool-ass powers that sound epic on paper but could be quite difficult to balance, even if we think we have it all right up in our heads. We also have to think about time-constraints...I think by the time they realized they couldn't get Overpower to work as intended they probably didn't have time to scrap everything in favor of a brand-spanking new power, implement it, design it, make sounds and art for it, balance it, etc. etc. 

Just give it a shot. There were quite a few powers in ME2 that people looked at that thought that it sucked, that turned out to be awesome...sometimes even after playing with them for a while. Hell, Charge was thought to be a worthless power there for a long time by the majority of people on the forum until we all kind of figured it out. Same goes for several other powers. 

If you really hate it though....then you'll just have more points for your other powers, I guess. And it looks like we're going to have quite a few bonus powers to play around with, so you guys can just skip it all-together if you'd like. To each his own.

[jasonsantanna]

[quote]AVPen wrote...

Overpower is still listed in the leaked script, along with all of it's evolutions - even though the power is no longer a part of the Adept's power list in ME3, I'll still list the power and its ranks here purely for reference sake (aka, "In the name of Science"  ):


Overpower   (For a short duration, you enter a heightened biotic state, enabling you to launch multiple powers.)
2nd Rank
Recharge   Increases the recharge speed of Overpower by x% 

3rd Rank
Duration   Increases the duration of Overpower by x%.

4th Rank
Power Duration   While under the effects of Overpower, the duration of your powers is increased by x%.
OR
Damage/Force   Increases the damage and force of powers cast during Overpower by x%.

5th Rank
Duration   Increases the duration of Overpower by x%.
OR
First Strike   The first power cast during Overpower causes no global cooldown.

6th Rank
Time Slow   Increases the amount the world is slowed by x%.
OR
Detonation   Biotic detonations do x% more damage and force and increase Overpower's duration by x seconds.
[/qu









Over power would have been the Adept's AR . . . at least from the way its described. . .
I can understand the frustration now, of the Adept players , because it does sound like it would have been a very sweet power to have. . .

[Last Vizard]

MELTOR wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

^ I'm sure they have their reasons, I'm understanding about that. Personally I just think the concept for Overpower was much more interesting than the Biotic Grenade concept. If they couldn't get it to work, then that's a shame. I can't pretend to know how much effort they put in trying to get it to work so no judgments there. What I can judge though is Biotic Grenade is not to my taste because I don't think it fits the Adept's style. I think they could've come up with a new, better biotic power than that. I know a lot of people on the forums have thought of some cool ideas.  But again, it's a matter of taste, so it's only my subjective opinion that Biotic Grenade sucks as a power.

Oh yeah, I could rattle off a ****ton of cool-sounding powers too, but again, it all goes back into the design of the game. A power like a biotic grenade may be simple to implement but still have some really cool effects and some depth (think Flashbang grenade from ME2). Whereas we could think up all kinds of cool-ass powers that sound epic on paper but could be quite difficult to balance, even if we think we have it all right up in our heads. We also have to think about time-constraints...I think by the time they realized they couldn't get Overpower to work as intended they probably didn't have time to scrap everything in favor of a brand-spanking new power, implement it, design it, make sounds and art for it, balance it, etc. etc. 

Just give it a shot. There were quite a few powers in ME2 that people looked at that thought that it sucked, that turned out to be awesome...sometimes even after playing with them for a while. Hell, Charge was thought to be a worthless power there for a long time by the majority of people on the forum until we all kind of figured it out. Same goes for several other powers. 

If you really hate it though....then you'll just have more points for your other powers, I guess. And it looks like we're going to have quite a few bonus powers to play around with, so you guys can just skip it all-together if you'd like. To each his own.

Can't wait to see how they explain Biotic grenades lore wise and how it was developed,  I'm not saying its easy to balance these powers however it is lazy to throw something like Biotic grenade into the Adept power list... why couldn't we just have Nova instead?

I'd like to see the Favourite classes for each of the dev team members and see how many actually play and love  Adept... how was the effect of protections mainly scewing over the Adept class not known about before ME2 shipped?  my guess, is that very few members of the Dev team actually play as Adept and thats also why overpower was "too hard" to implement because they didn't really try.

Why did it need to be a grenade? why not something like "unstable singularity" or something like that? could have the same effect as the grenade and it wouldn't screw the lore up or laugh in the face of Adept players.

Yes I will "wait and see" however I'm not going to sit back while watching the previous train carriages (ME 1-2 Adept build) pluge into the river without voicing my "issues" with the bridge maintenance crew before mine (ME3) goes in too.

Modifié par Last Vizard, 18 janvier 2012 - 07:33 .

[Last Vizard]

... no, don't worry about us whiners because Adepts in ME1 were... oh yeah every class was overpowered in ME1... ok, um in ME2 Adepts were... ah yeah sorry, the new protection system hurt the Adept class the most in ME2... well atleast Adepts get some cool grenades right? like they somehow store biotic force by... something, then you throw them and bang "awesome button" and "ME3 is the best place to start"...



..... whoa, sorry don't know what happened to me for a second, almost got stuck in BIOslave mode.  so, how about Jeff Vader huh? 

Honestly, BW could and should've done better.

Modifié par Last Vizard, 18 janvier 2012 - 07:23 .

[MELTOR]

Well, for your sake, Vizard, I hope that the Adept in ME3 exceeds your expectations.

[andy6915]

Last Vizard wrote...
Why did it need to be a grenade? why not something like "unstable singularity" or something like that? could have the same effect as the grenade and it wouldn't screw the lore up or laugh in the face of Adept players.

How does it screw the lore up, and if it does, worse then warp ammo already did? It seems just like warp ammo, putting your biotic power into a weapon in a way that your biotics work through the weapon as a medium for extra effects and powers. Put biotics into weapon=warp ammo, put biotics into grenade=biotic grenade.

I think storing biotic energy into a grenade and it exploding with all that energy when it detonates makes MORE sense then warp ammo did.