3405 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghost43]

Thanks for quelling panic, Andy. I guess we was nerfed to begin with.

[Arppis]

As long as Vanguard remains as best possible class to play, I am happy.

[Pedro Costa]

Ghost43 wrote...
*Looks at Vanguard videos on Youtube*  Damn, I think he's right. I saw between 50 and 75 percent too. Why does it say 100% in the power description, and why do we remember it filling 100%? Shape of the bar? Shields filling the rest of the way up soon after charging? Does the shield recharge timer still run while your charging?

Speaking for myself, when I Charge, the last thing on my mind is watching exactly *how* much my Barrier was restored, I glance at the GUI, see the refill animation starting to play and focus right back to combat and since my Barrier's endurance seemed equivalent after I charged to when my barrier naturally regenerates, I never really gave it a second thought, then there's also the Redundant Shield upgrade and the firefights themselves seldomly give you consistent results, so, ultimately, yeah, I think I trusted BioWare's word on the Heavy Charge flavour text (they mention time dilation even when it's not present in the bullet points, so, there's that)...
Still, now it feels contradicting (on the squad menu my barrier is up to >670; a good +270 boost to base Barrier and yet my Barrier GUI isn't even filled)... And I can't get better results because the boost supposedly lasts 4 seconds, more than enough time for my Barrier to naturally refill...

Edit: That cleared, if we don't get time dilation, I'll still feel "robbed" =(

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:35 .

[Ghost43]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Ghost43 wrote...
*Looks at Vanguard videos on Youtube*  Damn, I think he's right. I saw between 50 and 75 percent too. Why does it say 100% in the power description, and why do we remember it filling 100%? Shape of the bar? Shields filling the rest of the way up soon after charging? Does the shield recharge timer still run while your charging?

Speaking for myself, when I Charge, the last thing on my mind is watching exactly *how* much my Barrier was restored, I glance at the GUI, see the refill animation starting to play and focus right back to combat and since my Barrier's endurance seemed equivalent after I charged to when my barrier naturally regenerates, I never really gave it a second thought, then there's also the Redundant Shield upgrade and the firefights themselves seldomly give you consistent results, so, ultimately, yeah, I think I trusted BioWare's word on the Heavy Charge flavour text (they mention time dilation even when it's not present in the bullet points, so, there's that)...
Still, now it feels contradicting (on the squad menu my barrier is up to >670; a good +270 boost to base Barrier and yet my Barrier GUI isn't even filled)... And I can't get better results because the boost supposedly lasts 4 seconds, more than enough time for my Barrier to naturally refill...

Edit: That cleared, if we don't get time dilation, I'll still feel "robbed" =(

If it makes you feel better, I've heard we're supposed to be able to charge more, but I forget where I heard it.

[Ghost43]

PWatamaniuk Preston Watamaniuk
@ @Chaotist The Vanguard will be getting a new combo with Warp that works with Charge or Shockwave. Should help on Insanity.
26 Sep Favorite Retweet Reply

Hmmmm.

[Omega-202]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...
Lv4 Heavy Charge fills 100% of your barrier and adds Time Dilation of ~1 sec

I've always gotten heavy charge, and I can 100% confirm that it doesn't fill the shields entirely. That would have helped so many times it's not even funny, and I would remember that.



go to 00:25, Shepard using a heavy charge (based on the decription of the video) from no shields gets 50% back, NOT 100%. Where are you getting this information?

EDIT:Another person who has heavy charge getting only 50% back.



5:25

I'm pretty sure you're talking about how many points in shields it adds to your set amount, as in 300 shields will be 600 shields for a couple seconds after the charge. But how much of the shields bar that gets filled has always been 50%. I think a miscomminication happened here.

Sorry for the delay. Went testing.
407 base Barrier (all shield upgrades + Kestrel sans helmet and all Biotic upgrades), let barrier get destroyed and Charged, Barrier right after Charge was around 670, GUI showed ~75% fill.
I concede it doesn't seem to fill all 100%, but I also confirmed it goes past 50% =/

It recharges 100% of BASE barrier.  You have shield upgrades and shield boosts from your armor.  It DOES NOT restore those.  With full Kestrel and full shield upgrades, you have 85% bonus shields.  

Your shield meter shows 185% base barrier.  Your Charge restores 100% of that.  That would make the meter appear slightly more than half full.

Everyone needs to take a chill pill.  It has always worked as described, there's no conspiracy here.  

[Ghost43]

Omega-202 wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...
Lv4 Heavy Charge fills 100% of your barrier and adds Time Dilation of ~1 sec

I've always gotten heavy charge, and I can 100% confirm that it doesn't fill the shields entirely. That would have helped so many times it's not even funny, and I would remember that.



go to 00:25, Shepard using a heavy charge (based on the decription of the video) from no shields gets 50% back, NOT 100%. Where are you getting this information?

EDIT:Another person who has heavy charge getting only 50% back.



5:25

I'm pretty sure you're talking about how many points in shields it adds to your set amount, as in 300 shields will be 600 shields for a couple seconds after the charge. But how much of the shields bar that gets filled has always been 50%. I think a miscomminication happened here.

Sorry for the delay. Went testing.
407 base Barrier (all shield upgrades + Kestrel sans helmet and all Biotic upgrades), let barrier get destroyed and Charged, Barrier right after Charge was around 670, GUI showed ~75% fill.
I concede it doesn't seem to fill all 100%, but I also confirmed it goes past 50% =/

It recharges 100% of BASE barrier.  You have shield upgrades and shield boosts from your armor.  It DOES NOT restore those.  With full Kestrel and full shield upgrades, you have 85% bonus shields.  

Your shield meter shows 185% base barrier.  Your Charge restores 100% of that.  That would make the meter appear slightly more than half full.

Everyone needs to take a chill pill.  It has always worked as described, there's no conspiracy here.  

Thanks. Though, that reopens the nerf question, because the player in the demo may not have all those upgrades.

[Pedro Costa]

Omega-202 wrote...
It recharges 100% of BASE barrier.  You have shield upgrades and shield boosts from your armor.  It DOES NOT restore those.  With full Kestrel and full shield upgrades, you have 85% bonus shields.  

Your shield meter shows 185% base barrier.  Your Charge restores 100% of that.  That would make the meter appear slightly more than half full.

Heh, I desere a smack on the head - I always assumed by base they meant the value diplayed in the Squad menu page during missions. Thanks for clearing that up =)

[andy6915]

lightsnow13 wrote...
Yes, but there was still the feeling of the ability not being unique. Infiltrator had cloak. Vanguard has charge. Soldier has AR. Sentinel has tech armor. And Adept has singularity. No one (until you get Liara in LotSB..and even then she's not with you for long haul) has the class ability as a normal ability except for Legion AND Tali. The fact that two characters get the drone already makes it not very special.

The cooldown is long for tali and legion, but you can increase the length the drone remains and decrease the cooldown with their passives (to who it applies).

But, I'd much rather get AI hacking. But I'd only use Tali and Legion if I was engineer...they're too specialized it makes them handicapped.

To add to that, another thing that makes drone not feel unique is how enemies have that power too, and use it pretty often. Enemies don't have adrenaline rush of soldiers, the time dilation or the tactical cloak of infiltrators (some geth can turn somewhat invisible, but is clearly not the same power), enemies can't deploy the tech armor of sentinals, enemies can't use singularity, and no enemies aside from a very special boss in a special DLC can use charge. But enemies CAN use drones, quite freely at that. It's the only unique power enemies can do right back at you.

Modifié par andy69156915, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:15 .

[Omega-202]

Ghost43 wrote...

Thanks. Though, that reopens the nerf question, because the player in the demo may not have all those upgrades.

Oh, it most definitely seems to be nerfed.  As someone already stated though, I'm most worried about the time dilation in single player.  It was such a huge benefit for lining up shotgun headshots (which were really difficult on anything but the Eviscerator, yay for a tight choke!).  

50% base barrier boost is ok, but it makes the 6th tier evolution a no-brainer.  There's no way I would sacrifice extra shields for anything.  

EDIT: Oh, lvl 6 is absolutely a no-brainer.  "Chance to not trigger cooldown"?  I don't deal in chances.  Give me reliable and replicatable.  There's nothing more frustrating than losing in a game and knowing that the only reason you didn't come out on top was because of a random number generator.  

Modifié par Omega-202, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:27 .

[Ghost43]

Omega-202 wrote...

Ghost43 wrote...

Thanks. Though, that reopens the nerf question, because the player in the demo may not have all those upgrades.

Oh, it most definitely seems to be nerfed.  As someone already stated though, I'm most worried about the time dilation in single player.  It was such a huge benefit for lining up shotgun headshots (which were really difficult on anything but the Eviscerator, yay for a tight choke!).  

50% base barrier boost is ok, but it makes the 6th tier evolution a no-brainer.  There's no way I would sacrifice extra shields for anything.  

That's why I'm still a little optimistic. It's such an obvious choice, and they seem like they've done well otherwise in avoiding those for most of the powers. It's not like they're Games Workshop.

Modifié par Ghost43, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:28 .

[andy6915]

I might as well note something amazing about a vanguard with barrier in ME2. Barrier boosts your base shields, which means it's boost to your barrier points is added on top of the charge's boost to your barrier points. They stack together. By endgame, with all shield upgrades, and maxed barrier and charge, as long as barrier hasn't been broken by and enemy or worn off, you will get over 1,000 barrier points after every charge. Yes, you read that right, barrier+charge=1,000+ barrier points. It's insane. You're as close to invincible as you can get for those couple seconds after every charge you do. Charging a heavy mech and shooting it point blank is actually safe to do with this combo. All you need to do is, turn barrier on, wait the 12 second cooldown behind cover, and then just go crazy charging. Do note 2 things though. One, if you lose you're shields/barrier bar, the barrier is gone and needs reapplied, and two, the visual effect of barrier (the blue glow on your character) disappears when you charge. The barrier is still there, you can confirm it in the squad menu, but it will not actually be visible. By the way, the 1,000+ barrier points boost is for the 75% 3 minute one, the one that only lasts a minute for 100% is even more powerful with charge.

People often said that barrier is a rather useless bonus power, but they obviously never actually gave it a chance with vanguards. It's a super good combo of powers. With barrier and charges changes in ME3 though, it remains to be seen if this amazing combo will still be there in the third game.

Modifié par andy69156915, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:39 .

[Omega-202]

andy69156915 wrote...
***LOTS 'O Theorycrafting***

True, after Barrier + Charge boost, you have 1000 barrier points.  But if your barrier drops at any point, if it pops JUST once, you wasted 12 seconds worth of cooldown for nothing.  

Against a YMIR mech, that 1000 pts of barrier will last 2 or 3 shotgun blasts worth of time at most.  At that point, if you're lucky and your shields didn't pop, you can Charge again...

...BUT WAIT!!! That Charge is only going to replenish the Charge's portion of your new barrier maximum.  All of that barrier from the boosted Barrier limit will just sit there empty.  The only way to regain that boosted limit is to wait for your shields to recharge naturally.  But if you're going to do that, then what was the whole point anyway?  

In theory, it sounds awesome.  In practice it just slows everything down by 12 seconds.  

[Omega-202]

This theorycrafting got me thinking about what could be possible in ME3.

I think that the encumbrance system may very well be the biggest feature we've got. Forget the weapon customization or the new branching evolutions. I'm incredibly curious how low power recharge can go if you're only carrying a side-arm. What would a light-shotgun only Vanguard be able to do if he can Charge every 3 seconds and supplemented his lack of firepower with Nova and heavy melees? Can an Adept cast Throws as fast as they animate? Can a Soldier chain-shoot Concussive Shots if he's only carrying a standard assault rifle? What about an Infiltrator who can stay invisible for nearly a full fire fight, forgoing guns for Omni-blade assassinations?

How gimped would a fully tricked out Sentinel be with Tech Armor + Fortitude...or would he be? Would he instead be a walking tank who can't use powers but has a full armory on his back?

I think that the encumbrance system may be the key to really seeing how creative we can get with powers and melee.  

Modifié par Omega-202, 23 janvier 2012 - 11:01 .

[Pedro Costa]

Omega-202 wrote...
Oh, it most definitely seems to be nerfed.

 
I'll go grab my torch and pitchfork now 

As someone already stated though, I'm most worried about the time dilation in single player.  It was such a huge benefit for lining up shotgun headshots (which were really difficult on anything but the Eviscerator, yay for a tight choke!).  

 
Let's hope the Vanguard power descriptions apply to MP-only, since BioWare confirmed there won't be time dilations for the MP classes anyway, and the SP Vanguard can still get time dilation. That extended second has saved my butt more times than I can count (All of my playthroughs except for two are with a Vanguard character).

 50% base barrier boost is ok, but it makes the 6th tier evolution a no-brainer.  There's no way I would sacrifice extra shields for anything.  
Oh, lvl 6 is absolutely a no-brainer.  "Chance to not trigger cooldown"?  I don't deal in chances.  Give me reliable and replicatable.  There's nothing more frustrating than losing in a game and knowing that the only reason you didn't come out on top was because of a random number generator.  

Heh, precisely what I think.
And the exact same reason I'll go with Armor/Shield/Barrier damage boost for Nova's Lv6 upgrade, aswell.

[Omega-202]

lightsnow13 wrote...

Interesting! I'd actually go for the chance. Charge, nova, charge, nova? Sounds sweet. But, I also don't play vanguard - well I do just to say I have, but it's my second to last least favorite class.

I already love that these abilities have people debating different strategies. This is customization!

I respect the potential of the power procs in Nova and Charge, but again, I really don't like getting screwed by a roll of the die.  

And I agree with the beginning of debate and theorycrafting being a bit exciting.  I also agree that this is what customization should be about.  

"How do you want your Concussive Shot to work?" And not "Did you even take Concussive Shot?" as other people are suggesting.  

[andy6915]

Omega-202 wrote...
True, after Barrier + Charge boost, you have 1000 barrier points.  But if your barrier drops at any point, if it pops JUST once, you wasted 12 seconds worth of cooldown for nothing.  

Against a YMIR mech, that 1000 pts of barrier will last 2 or 3 shotgun blasts worth of time at most.  At that point, if you're lucky and your shields didn't pop, you can Charge again...

...BUT WAIT!!! That Charge is only going to replenish the Charge's portion of your new barrier maximum.  All of that barrier from the boosted Barrier limit will just sit there empty.  The only way to regain that boosted limit is to wait for your shields to recharge naturally.  But if you're going to do that, then what was the whole point anyway?  

In theory, it sounds awesome.  In practice it just slows everything down by 12 seconds.  

No, it works exactly as I said. The 1,000 barriers is there after EVERY SINGLE charge, period, as long as it has not been fully depleted. Barrier doubles your shields, then charge doubles that, and as long as the shields aren't taken out, your next charge will again double what the barrier power did. This is all fact. Confirm it yourself if you want, you'll see that in theory AND practice, it works just as I said. Trust someone who went a whole playthrough with this set up, and is observent enough of a person to be one of the few to catch that charge fills the guage up only halfway... Trust me when when I say you are flatly wrong in your post.

example

100 barrier
use barrier power
200 barrier
use charge
400 barrier
charge wears off
200 barrier
charge again
400 barrier
repeat until barrier is gone from damage or time

Modifié par andy69156915, 23 janvier 2012 - 11:11 .

[blitzkkrieg]

Omega-202 wrote...

How gimped would a fully tricked out Sentinel be with Tech Armor + Fortitude...or would he be? Would he instead be a walking tank who can't use powers but has a full armory on his back?

I think that the encumbrance system may be the key to really seeing how creative we can get with powers and melee.  

I fully intend on doing this.  Give a senitnel a light machine gun and a missle launcher, throw on tech armor and fortitude (or maybe defense matrix, seeing as it increases shield recharge), then just lumber around the battlefield shooting a massive amount of bullets at everything. 

Also, a pistol only infiltrator.  That would probably be fun, especially with the free power evolution; just run around throwing sticky grenades at enemies, let them panic, circle around again, assasinate another enemy, then go from there. 
Great thread, if I havent said it already

[Omega-202]

andy69156915 wrote...
No, it works exactly as I said. The 1,000 barriers is there after EVERY SINGLE charge, period, as long as it has not been fully depleted. Barrier doubles your shields, then charge doubles that, and as long as the shields aren't taken out, your next charge will again double what the barrier power did. This is all fact. Confirm it yourself if you want, you'll see that in theory AND practice, it works just as I said. Trust someone who went a whole playthrough with this set up, and is observent enough of a person to be one of the few to catch that charge fills the guage up only halfway... Trust me when when I say you are flatly wrong in your post.

example

100 barrier
use barrier power
200 barrier
use charge
400 barrier
charge wears off
200 barrier
charge again
400 barrier
repeat until barrier is gone from damage or time

You're describing the situation completely wrong and in a non-sensical manner that never occurs in practice and you're wrong about the method by which barrier and charge interact.  Its NOT multiplicative, its additive.

I played my second ME2 run as a Barrier Vanguard so I know what I'm talking about.  Yes, if you never get hit and your barrier level never drops what-so-ever, your fairy tale example holds true.

Lets go through a more accurate example:

100 barrier base + ~80 from upgrades+armor = 180
Use Barrier = 280
Use Charge = 380 (now scaled as "full bar")
Take 250 points of damage from enemies = 130 / 380
Charge boost crashes = 130 / 280 (new "full bar" level after crash)
Use Charge = 230 / 380 (you do not get the full bar)

You DO NOT regain all of your barrier.  That's a simple fact.  I've witnessed it, I've played it, you can go on Youtube and check it out.  

Modifié par Omega-202, 23 janvier 2012 - 11:22 .

[andy6915]

Omega-202 wrote...
You're describing the situation completely wrong and in a non-sensical manner that never occurs in practice and you're wrong about the method by which barrier and charge interact.  Its NOT multiplicative, its additive.

I played my second ME2 run as a Barrier Vanguard so I know what I'm talking about.  Yes, if you never get hit and your barrier level never drops what-so-ever, your fairy tale example holds true.

Lets go through a more accurate example:

100 barrier base + ~80 from upgrades+armor = 180
Use Barrier = 280
Use Charge = 380 (now scaled as "full bar")
Take 250 points of damage from enemies = 130 / 380
Charge boost crashes = 130 / 280 (new "full bar" level after crash)
Use Charge = 230 / 380 (you do not get the full bar)

You DO NOT regain all of your barrier.  That's a simple fact.  I've witnessed it, I've played it, you can go on Youtube and check it out.  

The barriers strength is still added to the charge's barrier strength, applying a ton of extra barrier points. This is a fact, and cannot be disputed. You will have far more barrier points with barrier+charge then just charge by itself, period. Frankly, I don't even understand your example, how does it go from 280 max with the charge boost crash right back to 380? That is a very large inconstistency in your example.

Modifié par andy69156915, 23 janvier 2012 - 11:30 .

[No Snakes Alive]

lightsnow13 wrote...

Remember the engineer in ME2? Absolutely nothing special about him. Tali and Legion made this apparent. 

All that's apparent from that claim is that you never played an Engineer in ME2, and you missed out big time. Combat Drone on a 3 second cooldown is SUCH an entirely different beast than Tali and Legion's crappy half a minute drones. We're talking complete and utter, spammable lockdown of any single one of 97% of the game's enemies at a time versus a minor distraction and a long powerless wait after.

That's like saying Infiltrators aren't unique because the Geth can cloak or Sentinels b/c of those Tech Armored enemy Mordins. Or how about Liara getting Singularity. Fact of the matter is Tali and Legion having their own versions of Combat Drone might take away from the Engineer's exclusive at first glance, but the second you realize Engi's is at 10% of the cooldown and actually use it to solo Heavy Mechs without breaking a sweat, you'll realize just how uniquetans awesome it is.

And possibly my vote for best exclusive power in ME2, but tough call there.

[No Snakes Alive]

blitzkkrieg wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...

How gimped would a fully tricked out Sentinel be with Tech Armor + Fortitude...or would he be? Would he instead be a walking tank who can't use powers but has a full armory on his back?

I think that the encumbrance system may be the key to really seeing how creative we can get with powers and melee.  

I fully intend on doing this.  Give a senitnel a light machine gun and a missle launcher, throw on tech armor and fortitude (or maybe defense matrix, seeing as it increases shield recharge), then just lumber around the battlefield shooting a massive amount of bullets at everything. 

Also, a pistol only infiltrator.  That would probably be fun, especially with the free power evolution; just run around throwing sticky grenades at enemies, let them panic, circle around again, assasinate another enemy, then go from there. 
Great thread, if I havent said it already

I've totally been planning on making a Sentinel melee tank like that. Since both Tech Armor and Fortification boost your durability AND melee damage pretty vastly I'm just gonna run around (or slowly lumber towards, lol) and beat the crap out of enemies with barely any need for firearms.

Plus Lift Grenades may most likely be off cooldown and thus unaffected by the massive encumbrance penalties.

I just hope all those extra shields and toughness actually make a difference on Insanity this time around lol. May not be viable if your ya kist class still only lasts 1.5 seconds in the line of fire again.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 23 janvier 2012 - 11:45 .

[blitzkkrieg]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

blitzkkrieg wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...

How gimped would a fully tricked out Sentinel be with Tech Armor + Fortitude...or would he be? Would he instead be a walking tank who can't use powers but has a full armory on his back?

I think that the encumbrance system may be the key to really seeing how creative we can get with powers and melee.  

I fully intend on doing this.  Give a senitnel a light machine gun and a missle launcher, throw on tech armor and fortitude (or maybe defense matrix, seeing as it increases shield recharge), then just lumber around the battlefield shooting a massive amount of bullets at everything. 

Also, a pistol only infiltrator.  That would probably be fun, especially with the free power evolution; just run around throwing sticky grenades at enemies, let them panic, circle around again, assasinate another enemy, then go from there. 
Great thread, if I havent said it already

I've totally been planning on making a Sentinel melee tank like that. Since both Tech Armor and Fortification boost your durability AND melee damage pretty vastly I'm just gonna run around (or slowly lumber towards, lol) and beat the crap out of enemies with barely any need for firearms.

Plus Lift Grenades may most likely be off cooldown and thus unaffected by the massive encumbrance penalties.

I just hope all those extra shields and toughness actually make a difference on Insanity this time around lol. May not be viable if your ya kist class still only lasts 1.5 seconds in the line of fire again.

If you didnt take many guns i'm sure you'll be able to get around pretty quick.  I' just thinking that since I will basically have an armory on my back, I'll be moving kind of slow.  And now that you mention it, lift grenade actually will really help that too; get the enemies out of cover. 

And I'm also hopeful that the armor boosts will let us last long, even on insanity.