166 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

The Baconer wrote...

The Xand wrote...
It looks and sounds like a male,

Shale's voice actor:
www.geraldine-blecker.com/

Monica21 wrote...
Shale
the golem is neither male nor female. Shayle, the dwarf who offered her
soul to power the golem, was female. Shale has the soul of a female but
the body is genderless.

Yeah. That was, like, my point.

I was, like, agreeing with you.

[The Baconer]

Monica21 wrote...

I was, like, agreeing with you.

Oh. Well that's, like, cool I guess.

[naledgeborn]

Are you serious? Shale's a chick. 

Warden: So... you're female? I had no idea.
Shale: Blazay blah blah
Warden: I am male.
Shale: Blazay blah blah
Warden: You're just cuter than before. Weird.
Shale: Don't look at my ass that would be awkward. Now, let's crush pigeons. (Conversation ends)

Edit: format

Modifié par naledgeborn, 11 septembre 2011 - 04:46 .

[The Xand]

[quote]The Baconer wrote...

Shale's voice actor:
www.geraldine-blecker.com/[/quote]






[quote]Monica21 wrote...
Shale
the golem is neither male nor female. Shayle, the dwarf who offered her
soul to power the golem, was female. Shale has the soul of a female but
the body is genderless.
[/quote]

Yeah. That was, like, my point.


[/quote]

A  stupid point. We call men who feel like they're women trapped in male bodies men, and since that female soul is trapped in a genderless body it's still an "it". Though more of a he since the body is sculpted to look male. Ancient greek statues of men with their dicks knocked off are still male sculptures.

[whykikyouwhy]

The Xand wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Well, there is this codex entry - specifically the bit if you completed the "A Golem's Memories" quest.

Your image, while impressive in art style, does not scream "male" to me. A golem is a construct. Genderless - humanoid in form - head, torso, 2 arms, 2 legs. The absence of curves or breasts does not make the construct "masculine" just as the absence of male genitalia does not make the construct "feminine." To say that something humanoid looking is, by default, male, is a bit unfair. If you looked at a skeleton, would you be able to identify that it was male or female immediately? I would wager most people would simply recognize it as human or not human.

Skeletons rarely come with sculpted male torsos.

Allow me to point out that the golem's torso is sculpted to appear muscular. And muscle is not a characteristic that is purely masculine as far as physiology goes. Again, golems are cast in their specific form for function. Bulk and muscle to do the heavy lifting and smashing of rocks and such. And again, just because a chest does not have breasts, does not dictate that the chest is from or of a male. I am a bit concerned about the views of anatomy you are conveying here.

It looks and sounds like a male, and the codex refers to Shale as "it". When the codex talks of "she" and "her" it was referring to it's former self, which was female. But no more. Since it now wears a masculine body and sounds like a male it makes more sense to refer to Shale as a he, though I suppose the correct term would be "it".

I see that you are comfortable judging a book by its cover. It looks and sounds like X, therefore it is X. Ok, that's your perogative, and seemingly little can be done to broaden your viewpoint here.

I will attest to Shale being a construct with the soul of a female dwarf. And if she prefers a female pronoun, so shall it be. She's a hell of a character. I think it's well worth it to respect her wishes.

As TeenZombie pointed out on the last page, this has little to do with the crux of the thread, so perhaps we should all veer back to matters of Sebastian.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 11 septembre 2011 - 04:56 .

[syllogi]

The Xand wrote...

A  stupid point. We call men who feel like they're women trapped in male bodies men, and since that female soul is trapped in a genderless body it's still an "it". Though more of a he since the body is sculpted to look male. Ancient greek statues of men with their dicks knocked off are still male sculptures.

You thought Shale was male until it was pointed out in this thread that she is female.  You were wrong.  You will always be wrong about this.  Perhaps you should go play the Stone Prisoner again, and read the text on the screen.

[The Xand]

whykikyouwhy wrote...


Allow me to point out that the golem's torso is sculpted to appear muscular. And muscle is not a characteristic that is purely masculine as far as physiology goes. Again, golems are cast in their specific form for function. Bulk and muscle to do the heavy lifting and smashing of rocks and such. And again, just because a chest does not have breasts, does not dictate that the chest is from or of a male. I am a bit concerned about the views of anatomy you are conveying here.

If it was sculpted to look like a female it would have been sculpted with wider hips and bigger breasts. As is the golems are made to look like huge male dwarves minus the penis because it's a little disconcerting having a giant stone wangs swinging around in games.

whykikyouwhy wrote...I see that you are comfortable judging a book by its cover. It looks and sounds like X, therefore it is X. Ok, that's your perogative, and seemingly little can be done to broaden your viewpoint here.

I will attest to Shale being a construct with the soul of a female dwarf. And if she prefers a female pronoun, so shall it be. She's a hell of a character. I think it's well worth it to respect her wishes.

As TeenZombie pointed out on the last page, this has little to do with the crux of the thread, so perhaps we should all veer back to matters of Sebastian.

Shale never actually claimed to be female and prefer "she" though, merely that it had been female in a past life and even the codex refers to Shale as "it".

TeenZombie wrote...

You thought Shale was male until it
was pointed out in this thread that she is female.  You were wrong.  You
will always be wrong about this.  Perhaps you should go play the Stone
Prisoner again, and read the text on the screen.

Shale isn't female. The soul that was used in it's construction once was, and that's acknowledged but never that Shale is anything other than an "it".

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:00 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The Xand wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...


Allow me to point out that the golem's torso is sculpted to appear muscular. And muscle is not a characteristic that is purely masculine as far as physiology goes. Again, golems are cast in their specific form for function. Bulk and muscle to do the heavy lifting and smashing of rocks and such. And again, just because a chest does not have breasts, does not dictate that the chest is from or of a male. I am a bit concerned about the views of anatomy you are conveying here.

If it was sculpted to look like a female it would have been sculpted with wider hips and bigger breasts. As is the golems are made to look like huge male dwarves minus the penis because it's a little disconcerting having a giant stone wangs swinging around in games.

Let's look at it this way - it would be equally disconcerting, and possibly violate some ratings scale, to have naked stone breasts waving around in the middle of a boss fight. So perhaps DA's golems are designed to be gender neutral so as not to offend anyone by exposure of naked golem bits, hmm?

Wider hips and breasts do not make someone "feminine." I know plenty of women with flat chests and narrow hips, just as I know plenty of men with non-muscular but full chests and wide hips. Does that make them the opposite gender of who they are? No.

Bottom line is that it is unfair to characterize someone by their appearance.

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
If it was sculpted to look like a female it would have been sculpted with wider hips and bigger breasts. As is the golems are made to look like huge male dwarves minus the penis because it's a little disconcerting having a giant stone wangs swinging around in games.

No. It's sculpted for functionality. A construct needs arms, legs, a head, and a torso. It does not need gender-specific parts. 

Shale isn't female. The soul that was used in it's construction once was, and that's acknowledged but never that Shale is anything other than an "it".

If Shale's soul is female then how could Shale be anything other than female? Shale also recognizes that she is female and makes stereotypically female comments:

"Now, let us crush something soft and watch it fountain blood. That is a girlish thing to want to do, yes?"

Shale: "I see it found some augmentation crystals. I was not even aware it knew about them... well done! So? What does it think? They don't make me look any wider, do they? I find I am already too wide as it is."
The Warden: "No, no, they're quite slimming."
Shale: "They are, aren't they? I so adore them! I think it should find some more as soon as possible. I want to glitter from ear to ear... so to speak!"

[The Xand]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Let's look at it this way - it would be equally disconcerting, and possibly violate some ratings scale, to have naked stone breasts waving around in the middle of a boss fight. So perhaps DA's golems are designed to be gender neutral so as not to offend anyone by exposure of naked golem bits, hmm?

Wider hips and breasts do not make someone "feminine." I know plenty of women with flat chests and narrow hips, just as I know plenty of men with non-muscular but full chests and wide hips. Does that make them the opposite gender of who they are? No.

Bottom line is that it is unfair to characterize someone by their appearance.

The bottom line is that at the end of the day the golems are just living sculptures, and obviously modelled to be male.

Here's an example of a male sculpture:

http://maa.missouri..../Doryphoros.jpg

And an example of female sculptures:

http://farm2.static...._6c8122c695.jpg

Now, you could slot a formerly female soul into that first sculpture but it would still be male, or technically genderless.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:36 .

[mousestalker]

Monica21 wrote...

Shale: "I see it found some augmentation crystals. I was not even aware it knew about them... well done! So? What does it think? They don't make me look any wider, do they? I find I am already too wide as it is."
The Warden: "No, no, they're quite slimming."
Shale: "They are, aren't they? I so adore them! I think it should find some more as soon as possible. I want to glitter from ear to ear... so to speak!"

In all fairness, you only get that convo if your Warden is a woman. I remember on my first playthrough saying aloud "This golem is a woman!" and hearing "Huh what?" from the other room. That happens a lot in our house...

:innocent:

Modifié par mousestalker, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:35 .

[mousestalker]

Also, Shale was chiseled down into a smaller form. If you compare her larger form (visible in the Fade) to the golems found in the Deep Roads, you will notice some subtle differences between them.

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
The bottom line is that at the end of the day the golems are just living sculptures, and obviously modelled to be male.

Here's an example of a male sculpture:

http://maa.missouri..../Doryphoros.jpg

And an example of female sculptures:

http://farm2.static...._6c8122c695.jpg

Now, you could slot a formerly female soul into that first sculpture but it would still be male, or technically genderless.

Providing an example of an artistic representation of a male and female body has nothing to do with Shale. A golem is not artistic. A golem is built for battle, not to be pleasing or to represent the form. Therefore, a golem must be functional. A penis or breasts are simply unnecessary.

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...
Providing an example of an artistic representation of a male and female body has nothing to do with Shale. A golem is not artistic. A golem is built for battle, not to be pleasing or to represent the form. Therefore, a golem must be functional. A penis or breasts are simply unnecessary.

Yet the rippling male six pack is functional for a stone golem is it?

[Monica21]

mousestalker wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Shale: "I see it found some augmentation crystals. I was not even aware it knew about them... well done! So? What does it think? They don't make me look any wider, do they? I find I am already too wide as it is."
The Warden: "No, no, they're quite slimming."
Shale: "They are, aren't they? I so adore them! I think it should find some more as soon as possible. I want to glitter from ear to ear... so to speak!"

In all fairness, you only get that convo if your Warden is a woman.

The point is what Shale is saying, not what the Warden is saying. Shale is discussing crystals as if they were jewelry and essentially asking the Warden, "do these make me look fat?" Stereotypically feminine.

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
Yet the rippling male six pack is functional for a stone golem is it?

When did a six pack become exclusive to males? I suggest you watch more female athletes.

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...

The point is what Shale is saying, not what the Warden is saying. Shale is discussing crystals as if they were jewelry and essentially asking the Warden, "do these make me look fat?" Stereotypically feminine.

Because it's not like Shale has a tendency to be ironic at all.

Monica21 wrote...


When did a six pack become exclusive to males? I suggest you watch more female athletes.

Female athletes still have those mysterious "breasts" that females are renowned for, and surprisingly enough feminine forms. Let's also not be forgetting that the dwarves aren't likely to be sculpting golems of war into female forms, because really, female battle-golems.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:47 .

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
Because it's not like Shale has a tendency to be ironic at all.

Irrelevant. Shale recognizes herself as female. That is all.

Female athletes still have those mysterious "breasts" that females are renowned for, and feminine forms. Let's also not be forgetting that the dwarves aren't likely to be sculpting golems of war into female forms, because really.

So, because female athletes do not fit the Greek, idealized form of a female body they are not representative as females? Do you really want to go down that road? And the dwarves are not sculpting golems of war into male forms.

Modifié par Monica21, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:50 .

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...
Irrelevant. Shale recognizes herself as female. That is all.

Shale recognised it's former self as female. That is all.

Monica21 wrote...
So, because female athletes do not fit the Greek, idealized form of a female body they are not representative as females? Do you really want to go down that road? And the dwarves are not sculpting golems of war into male forms.

I was pointing out that actual real life in the flesh and blood female athletes have recognisable breasts and wider hips than men, oddly enough. Oh, and female athletes are rarely as good as their male counterparts so obviously golems of war would be made to look male.

Like say, this.

http://images1.wikia...rk_másolata.jpg

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:55 .

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
Shale recognised it's former self as female. That is all.

Her former self is still her, simply in a different form.

I was pointing out that actual real life in the flesh and blood female athletes have recognisable breasts and wider hips than men, oddly enough. Oh, and female athletes are rarely as good as their male counterparts so obviously golems of war would be made to look male.

Like say, this.

http://images1.wikia...rk_másolata.jpg

You seem to see "male" when you look at that. I see an obvious construct and I cannot determine gender. The difference with Shale is that she remembers what she was and she accepts it. She does not refer to herself as "it." She is female.

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...

Her former self is still her, simply in a different form.

Well no, Shayle's soul was only one of the ingredients needed to create a composite being of stone and magic. After being killed and forged into a golem "she" was rendered genderless. Or more male since the golem's form is masculine.

Monica21 wrote...You seem to see "male" when you look at that. I see an obvious construct and I cannot determine gender. The difference with Shale is that she remembers what she was and she accepts it. She does not refer to herself as "it." She is female.

It doesn't refer to itself as "she" either. Though it's a little worrying you can't see that the golem is male. All it needs is a dick and voila. Job done. As is it has all the characteristically strong male hallmarks, ie no breasts, rippling 6 pack, broad shoulders, narrow hips, obviously male facial features. Though I daresay women in your part of the world must be quite something if your idea of feminine is in any way shape or form that of that golem.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:04 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The Xand wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Her former self is still her, simply in a different form.

Monica21 wrote...You seem to see "male" when you look at that. I see an obvious construct and I cannot determine gender. The difference with Shale is that she remembers what she was and she accepts it. She does not refer to herself as "it." She is female.

It doesn't refer to itself as "she" either. Though it's a little worrying you can't see that the golem is male. All it needs is a dick and voila. Job done. As is it has all the characteristically strong male hallmarks, ie no breasts, rippling 6 pack, broad shoulders, narrow hips, obviously male facial features. Though I daresay women in your part of the world must be quite something if your idea of feminine is in any way shape or form that of that golem.

I'm finding it difficult to discern if you indeed believe what you are posting, or if you are trolling for troll's sake.

We'll go with the former. In which case, you vascilate between identifying golems as "genderless" or "male." Which is it? You seem to really want Shale to be definitively male based solely on the fact that her golem form does not have breasts.

Here are some facts - some women have flat chests. Some women, unfortunately, have to have their breasts removed for medical reasons. Some women are muscular in the chest area thus losing that rounded look to their breasts. Does that make any of those women less in regard to their gender? No. Does it make them masculine? No.

Femininity is not tied solely to physical appearance. What makes a woman a woman is not always what you see at first glance on the outside. This applies to the world over, I would argue.

Now, how you personally define the female gender, that's you're perogative and your opinion. Neither of which makes Shale strictly "male."

[aries1001]

If you take Shale, the Golem with your during the deep roads expeditions (where you meet Oghren's wife), it will remember the origin of what Shale once was. Before this occasion, in conversations with Shale in camp always would start with 'it'; after that - not so much. (as I remember it). Also, to me at least, the gifts you can give to Shale, is seen as (culturally defined) femine.

I agree, however, that as Golem Shale is more masculine than feminine. However, as I see it, this is more in form than substance. Behind her masculine form she's still retained at least some of her feminine attitudes...

edit:

As for Sebastian, I didn't get the friend/rivalry system with him untill very late in the game. I though he would like to get back to rule Starkhaven; he won't - at least not voluntarily. In the end game, I did something that made him go away, pledging and wowing to bring Starkhaven's army etc. back to Kirkwall. In the course of the game, I took him on a few quests, but not as many as the others, I think.

Modifié par aries1001, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:48 .

[The Xand]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I'm finding it difficult to discern if you indeed believe what you are posting, or if you are trolling for troll's sake.

We'll go with the former. In which case, you vascilate between identifying golems as "genderless" or "male." Which is it? You seem to really want Shale to be definitively male based solely on the fact that her golem form does not have breasts.

Here are some facts - some women have flat chests. Some women, unfortunately, have to have their breasts removed for medical reasons. Some women are muscular in the chest area thus losing that rounded look to their breasts. Does that make any of those women less in regard to their gender? No. Does it make them masculine? No.

Femininity is not tied solely to physical appearance. What makes a woman a woman is not always what you see at first glance on the outside. This applies to the world over, I would argue.

Now, how you personally define the female gender, that's you're perogative and your opinion. Neither of which makes Shale strictly "male."

Golems are designed to look male, though they are technically genderless. Ergo finding out that the soul fuelling Shale was formerly female was designed as a big joke by Bioware.

Yes, not all women have huge ******, and yes some do have them removed but it's fairly obvious the Dwarves aren't going to be manufacturing their golems on the faulty, overly masculine and muscular female design. No, they made their golems look male ie broad shoulders, narrow hips, strong masculine face and rippling 6 pack.

Ie women who look like this would be entirely unnatural and outwith the norm:

http://images1.wikia...rk_másolata.jpg

Whereas those characteristics are entirely normal for muscular men.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:23 .

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
It doesn't refer to itself as "she" either. Though it's a little worrying you can't see that the golem is male. All it needs is a dick and voila. Job done. As is it has all the characteristically strong male hallmarks, ie no breasts, rippling 6 pack, broad shoulders, narrow hips, obviously male facial features. Though I daresay women in your part of the world must be quite something if your idea of feminine is in any way shape or form that of that golem.

The golem does not have a penis. Why would I assume it's male? A female body builder has typically male hallmarks of broad shoulders, narrow hips, and very small breasts. Is she less of a woman? Or does she just not fit your ideal of what is and is not feminine? And if she doesn't fit your idea, what does that have to do with Shale?

My personal idea of what is and is not feminine has nothing to do with this. It's whether Shale is female or male, and her genderless form does not define her as such. Just because it's easier to make a square shape than a curvy one doesn't mean that Caridin got it wrong when he put Shayle into her golem form.