166 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

I was pretty sure that Shale was female when she started to ask my warden if the crystal made her look slimmer... Also a lot of her dialog have some stereo-type femaleness in it. ...

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...
The golem does not have a penis. Why would I assume it's male? A female body builder has typically male hallmarks of broad shoulders, narrow hips, and very small breasts. Is she less of a woman? Or does she just not fit your ideal of what is and is not feminine? And if she doesn't fit your idea, what does that have to do with Shale?

My personal idea of what is and is not feminine has nothing to do with this. It's whether Shale is female or male, and her genderless form does not define her as such. Just because it's easier to make a square shape than a curvy one doesn't mean that Caridin got it wrong when he put Shayle into her golem form.

Jus' saying, those golems are made to look male. Certainly not like deformed and anormal females.

That's the thing too, Shayle is dead. gone. Kaput. Extincted. There's only Shale now and it's genderless and doesn't make any wish to be referred to as female and even the codex refers to it as it.

esper wrote...

I was pretty sure that Shale was female
when she started to ask my warden if the crystal made her look
slimmer... Also a lot of her dialog have some stereo-type femaleness in
it. ...

Yeah but guys do that a lot as well, and given that Shale is genderless and possessed of quite a droll wit it's clearly meant to be ironic.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:30 .

[bleetman]

I'm not sure how amused I should be by this notion that everything with bulk and/or musculature is automatically masculine.

You know why Golems are built that way? Because they're walking siege weapons. Battering rams with arms, as it were. Resemblance to one gender or another is entirely irrelevant to that.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Heh. Apparently this is what Geraldine Blecker said:
"Some of my friends have pointed out a marked physical resemblance between me and Shale, which could be why I was selected for the role."

So, the thing is which came first, the chicken (Geraldine) or the egg (Shale)?

And here's what Geraldine sounds like in real life. And here's what Shale sounds like. There is similarity there, but I can easily tell which one is a male's voice and which one is female's. Geraldine had to alter her voice for the role - which I presume was done to give an initial impression that Shale was a male to the player. And that is also the reason for the change in name from Shayle to Shale, I'm guessing.

In any case, given how the golemns were developed in the brink of the destruction of an empire, I don't think Caradin would have worried all that much with physical appearances - which is what Geraldine is also saying, I guess.

EDIT: Formatting, as usual.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:29 .

[The Xand]

bleetman wrote...

I'm not sure how amused I should be by this notion that everything with bulk and/or musculature is automatically masculine.

You know why Golems are built that way? Because they're walking siege weapons. Battering rams with arms, as it were. Resemblance to one gender or another is entirely irrelevant to that.

Aye, walking siege weapons forged to look like oversized dwarven males. Hence the male faces and bodies. It's certainly hard to imagine why you'd shape a walking siege machine to look even remotely female, unless you wished to go out of your way to really offend your people's females.

http://images2.wikia.../d/dc/Golem.jpg

Does not look female in the slightest. 'Tis clearly modelled to be a huge and intimidating male dwarf.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:34 .

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
Jus' saying, those golems are made to look male. Certainly not like deformed and anormal females.

Yeah, now I'm not sure if you're trolling or not. Female body builders are outside the norm, but they are certainly not deformed. The golems are made to look like golems. You even have a dialogue option of "Just think of it like a portable battering ram." 

That's the thing too, Shayle is dead. gone. Kaput. Extincted. There's only Shale now and it's genderless and doesn't make any wish to be referred to as female and even the codex refers to it as it.

Except she's not, if only because she remembers. She remembers that she used to be female and she remembers enough to help you find Cadash Thaig. Her body is gone but her soul remains bound to the golem. Therefore she is not gone, kaput, or extinct.

And if Shale goes to Tevinter with Wynne there's an epilogue slide about a very angry dwarven female who hates birds. Shale is female. Deal with it.

[mousestalker]

Does not look female in the slightest. 'Tis clearly modelled to be a huge and intimidating male dwarf.

Which explains the presence of the large stone phallus...

Modifié par mousestalker, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:37 .

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...

Yeah, now I'm not sure if you're trolling or not. Female body builders are outside the norm, but they are certainly not deformed. The golems are made to look like golems. You even have a dialogue option of "Just think of it like a portable battering ram."

The golems are forged to look like large Dwarven male warriors, because that adds to the intimidation factor. Female body builders are extremely outwith the norm and extremely unattractive and hideous to look upon, not to mention vastly in the minority and usually weaker than male equivalents so it ofc only makes sense that the Dwarves would forge their war machines to look like men, rather than large ugly women, Remember, they're master craftsmen and wouldn't want to create something that would make them ashamed to look upon and insulting to their women.

Monica21 wrote...Except she's not, if only because she remembers. She remembers that she used to be female and she remembers enough to help you find Cadash Thaig. Her body is gone but her soul remains bound to the golem. Therefore she is not gone, kaput, or extinct.

Her soul might remain bound to the golem but "she" is no longer female. It might remember what it once was but it is no longer female. Unless of course you believe that souls are incapable of changing gender? In which case that's not terribly politically correct given the number of people that have sex changes.

[esper]

The Xand wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Yeah, now I'm not sure if you're trolling or not. Female body builders are outside the norm, but they are certainly not deformed. The golems are made to look like golems. You even have a dialogue option of "Just think of it like a portable battering ram."

The golems are forged to look like large Dwarven male warriors, because that adds to the intimidation factor. Female body builders are extremely outwith the norm and extremely unattractive and hideous to look upon, not to mention vastly in the minority and usually weaker than male equivalents so it ofc only makes sense that the Dwarves would forge their war machines to look like men, rather than large ugly women, Remember, they're master craftsmen and wouldn't want to create something that would make them ashamed to look upon and insulting to their women.

Monica21 wrote...Except she's not, if only because she remembers. She remembers that she used to be female and she remembers enough to help you find Cadash Thaig. Her body is gone but her soul remains bound to the golem. Therefore she is not gone, kaput, or extinct.

Her soul might remain bound to the golem but "she" is no longer female. It might remember what it once was but it is no longer female. Unless of course you believe that souls are incapable of changing gender? In which case that's not terribly politically correct given the number of people that have sex changes.

I had a friend who changes her sex, because she had a female soul/mind/whatever you fancy to call it in a male body.

And Shale is female. She think of herself as female - thus she is female. She just doesn't hit you warden with it when you first met, because she assumes you know. Also dialog like: Do these crystal make me look slimmer - show sterotypicial femaleness.

[mesmerizedish]

The Xand wrote...

Her soul might remain bound to the golem but "she" is no longer female. It might remember what it once was but it is no longer female. Unless of course you believe that souls are incapable of changing gender? In which case that's not terribly politically correct given the number of people that have sex changes.

People get SRS so that their physical sex matches their gender. Their gender doesn't change.

Talk about being politically incorrect <_<

[whykikyouwhy]

[quote]The Xand wrote...

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

Yeah, now I'm not sure if you're trolling or not. Female body builders are outside the norm, but they are certainly not deformed. The golems are made to look like golems. You even have a dialogue option of "Just think of it like a portable battering ram." [/quote]
The golems are forged to look like large Dwarven male warriors, because that adds to the intimidation factor. Female body builders are extremely outwith the norm and extremely unattractive and hideous to look upon, not to mention vastly in the minority and usually weaker than male equivalents so it ofc only makes sense that the Dwarves would forge their war machines to look like men, rather than large ugly women, Remember, they're master craftsmen and wouldn't want to create something that would make them ashamed to look upon and insulting to their women. [/quote]
Let's see...beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Don't judge a book by it's cover. Lots of adages and axioms could be applied here, but I am beginning to see that you would not be receptive to any.

It's a shame that you find female body builders to be ugly or "outwith the norm." I shudder to think what your concept of "norm" is, because I fear it would be wrapped up in layers of misogyny and the ridiculous societal concepts of beauty that have plagued women for centuries.


[quote]Monica21 wrote...Except she's not, if only because she remembers. She remembers that she used to be female and she remembers enough to help you find Cadash Thaig. Her body is gone but her soul remains bound to the golem. Therefore she is not gone, kaput, or extinct.
[/quote]

Her soul might remain bound to the golem but "she" is no longer female. It might remember what it once was but it is no longer female. Unless of course you believe that souls are incapable of changing gender? In which case that's not terribly politically correct given the number of people that have sex changes.

[/quote]
The notion of a soul retaining a gender identity may actually give credence to why some people elect to have gender-reassignment surgery. They believe they were born in the wrong body.

If you want to start throwing the stone of political correctness, I'd take a good look at the strength of your glass house, if I were you.

[The Xand]

esper wrote...

I had a friend who changes her sex, because she had a female soul/mind/whatever you fancy to call it in a male body.

And Shale is female. She think of herself as female - thus she is female. She just doesn't hit you warden with it when you first met, because she assumes you know. Also dialog like: Do these crystal make me look slimmer - show sterotypicial femaleness.

Right, so every time a guy asks "Does my bum look big in this" that shows that he's secretly a she?

whykikyouwhy wrote...



Let's
see...beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Don't judge a book by it's
cover. Lots of adages and axioms could be applied here, but I am
beginning to see that you would not be receptive to any.

It's a
shame that you find female body builders to be ugly or "outwith the
norm." I shudder to think what your concept of "norm" is, because I fear
it would be wrapped up in layers of misogyny and the ridiculous
societal concepts of beauty that have plagued women for centuries.

You do realise that that much bodybuilding for a female is decidedly unhealthy right? It often affects their menstrual cycle and more often than not affects their ability to have children. Not that all women should have children of course, but if you're pushing yourself to the point that you're affecting your biological functions then you should really stop and think about your health.

As for "societal concepts of beauty" the fact of the matter is that both girls and men find muscular bodybuilding women freakish and unnatural, even when they're comfortable with girls as they are naturally. I myself enjoy girls as they come naturally without forcing themselves to be extra thin or extra curvy or what have you.

Monica21
wrote...

The notion of a soul
retaining a gender identity may actually give credence to why some
people elect to have gender-reassignment surgery. They believe they were
born in the wrong body.

If you want to start throwing the stone
of political correctness, I'd take a good look at the strength of your
glass house, if I were you.

In real life the reason why you get people like that is because of chemical imbalances in their brains, because to put it bluntly they aren't working as they should be so they get surgery to change their bodies to better suit their minds since it's currently impossible to do brain surgery to make their minds better suit their bodies. So, it's reasonable to assume that since Shayle's soul was recycled and reused to fuel the body of a golem, Shale, and that golem is asexual then that soul is now asexual since it has no female organs whatsoever and doesn't mind that it is indeed an it.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[RagingCyclone]

LOL...I stepped in here to see something about Sebastian and see a Shale argument going on. Ok, Shale is female, you find this out during her personal quest to Cadash Thaig, it's on the registry there and you as a male can flirt with her and she comments about feeling subconscious when she thinks you are looking at her behind.
And as for the golems looks/appearance...I took them to be a neutral appearance being neither male nor female, but a golem. Shale is smaller because Wilhelm used a chisel and hammer to whittle her size down to fit through doors. Aside from that, I just think the whole argument is funny. *runs off to laugh uncontrollably*

[mousestalker]

Boy golem and girl golem:




Pay particular attention to the crotch.

Modifié par mousestalker, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[esper]

The Xand wrote...

esper wrote...

I had a friend who changes her sex, because she had a female soul/mind/whatever you fancy to call it in a male body.

And Shale is female. She think of herself as female - thus she is female. She just doesn't hit you warden with it when you first met, because she assumes you know. Also dialog like: Do these crystal make me look slimmer - show sterotypicial femaleness.

Right, so every time a guy asks "Does my bum look big in this" that shows that he's secretly a she?

No, but it is a female steorotype put in just to hint that Shale was a she. There were plenty of other such stereo types in Shale's banter if you listen carefully.
And I never said that stereotypes are right, just that they are stereotypes.

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
The golems are forged to look like large Dwarven male warriors, because that adds to the intimidation factor. Female body builders are extremely outwith the norm and extremely unattractive and hideous to look upon, not to mention vastly in the minority and usually weaker than male equivalents so it ofc only makes sense that the Dwarves would forge their war machines to look like men, rather than large ugly women, Remember, they're master craftsmen and wouldn't want to create something that would make them ashamed to look upon and insulting to their women.

Do you have a codex or dialogue that states this? Because they are made from rock and metal. They are not designed to look like dwarven males. Because if that were true, every golem would have a beard. 

As for the rest... well, your ideas of gender and identity lack currency, is all I'll say.

Her soul might remain bound to the golem but "she" is no longer female. It might remember what it once was but it is no longer female. Unless of course you believe that souls are incapable of changing gender? In which case that's not terribly politically correct given the number of people that have sex changes.

That doesn't make sense, and I don't think you understand why people have such surgeries. Their soul doesn't change. They believe they were born in the wrong body.

[esper]

mousestalker wrote...

Boy golem and girl golem:




Pay particular attention to the crotch.

Shale was magically shrunk. But now that I look closely you can actually she that she has a more hour glass type of form than the male golem.

[MichaelFinnegan]

RagingCyclone wrote...

And as for the golems looks/appearance...I took them to be a neutral appearance being neither male nor female, but a golem. Shale is smaller because Wilhelm used a chisel and hammer to whittle her size down to fit through doors. Aside from that, I just think the whole argument is funny. *runs off to laugh uncontrollably*

Honestly, why is it funny, though (aside from the fact that this has very little to do with DA2 or with someone's disappointment with Sebastian:happy:)?

You're ignoring the point that those golems might retain their souls (awareness or identities, let's just say for now) after being made. And being battering rams, or whatever that people might choose to refer to golems, has very little to do with how they might be physically structured. You could make them to be both. I merely think Caradin gave them no choice in the matter, and perhaps at the time, none of those volunteers cared much. That doesn't mean they didn't get soemthing to say about it later, if they ended up becoming like Shale.

[whykikyouwhy]

[quote]The Xand wrote...
You do realise that that much bodybuilding for a female is decidedly unhealthy right? It often affects their menstrual cycle and more often than not affects their ability to have children. Not that all women should have children of course, but if you're pushing yourself to the point that you're affecting your biological functions then you should really stop and think about your health.

As for "societal concepts of beauty" the fact of the matter is that both girls and men find muscular bodybuilding women freakish and unnatural, even when they're comfortable with girls as they are naturally. I myself enjoy girls as they come naturally without forcing themselves to be extra thin or extra curvy or what have you.
[/quote]

Glad that you enjoy girls "as they come naturally." I hope they, in turn, enjoy narrow-mindedness.

[quote]Monica21
wrote...

The notion of a soul
retaining a gender identity may actually give credence to why some
people elect to have gender-reassignment surgery. They believe they were
born in the wrong body.

If you want to start throwing the stone
of political correctness, I'd take a good look at the strength of your
glass house, if I were you.[/quote]

In real life the reason why you get people like that is because of chemical imbalances in their brains, because to put it bluntly they aren't working as they should be so they get surgery to change their bodies to better suit their minds since it's currently impossible to do brain surgery to make their minds better suit their bodies. So, it's reasonable to assume that since Shayle's soul was recycled and reused to fuel the body of a golem, Shale, and that golem is asexual then that soul is now asexual since it has no female organs whatsoever and doesn't mind that it is indeed an it.
[/quote]
So you're back to refering to Shale as "it" and no longer as "male?" Some consistency would be nice. If you see Shale as asexual, then I would recommend sticking to that. Because your discussion points on her construct's physique have not done much to identify her as male. So if she is asexual to you, fine. Refer to her as "the golem Shale" or "it" but then that means she is not "male." 

Again, her physical form does not identify her gender.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[RagingCyclone]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

And as for the golems looks/appearance...I took them to be a neutral appearance being neither male nor female, but a golem. Shale is smaller because Wilhelm used a chisel and hammer to whittle her size down to fit through doors. Aside from that, I just think the whole argument is funny. *runs off to laugh uncontrollably*

Honestly, why is it funny, though (aside from the fact that this has very little to do with DA2 or with someone's disappointment with Sebastian:happy:)?

You're ignoring the point that those golems might retain their souls (awareness or identities, let's just say for now) after being made. And being battering rams, or whatever that people might choose to refer to golems, has very little to do with how they might be physically structured. You could make them to be both. I merely think Caradin gave them no choice in the matter, and perhaps at the time, none of those volunteers cared much. That doesn't mean they didn't get soemthing to say about it later, if they ended up becoming like Shale.

Yeah, it's funny because it has nothing to do with Sebastian.
As for the golems, Shale is the lone exception outside of Caridin that we know...her control rod is broken. The rest are controlled with rods...it's a reason her memories are lost until you return to Cadash.  The rod's condition is why her memories return. In The Stolen Throne Wilhelm still uses the control rod and it works (assuming it is Shale for this discussion).

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[The Xand]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Glad that you enjoy girls "as they come naturally." I hope they, in turn, enjoy narrow-mindedness.

What the hell, how is that narrow minded? If I were forcing girls to conform to what I personally found attractive that would be dickish, like telling them to drop a few pounds, or go to the gym, or put on weight. I've dated fat girls, skinny girls and normal girls but I've never pressured them into being something they're not and always enjoyed them for who they are :/

whykikyouwhy wrote...
So you're back to refering to Shale as "it" and no longer as "male?" Some consistency would be nice. If you see Shale as asexual, then I would recommend sticking to that. Because your discussion points on her construct's physique have not done much to identify her as male. So if she is asexual to you, fine. Refer to her as "the golem Shale" or "it" but then that means she is not "male." 

Again, her physical form does not identify her gender.

The golems have no gender but they look male, so they are naturally more easily referred to as "he". Yes they might have souls as a part of them, but they are just golems and who they once were has no real bearing on what they are now.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:17 .

[esper]

RagingCyclone wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

And as for the golems looks/appearance...I took them to be a neutral appearance being neither male nor female, but a golem. Shale is smaller because Wilhelm used a chisel and hammer to whittle her size down to fit through doors. Aside from that, I just think the whole argument is funny. *runs off to laugh uncontrollably*

Honestly, why is it funny, though (aside from the fact that this has very little to do with DA2 or with someone's disappointment with Sebastian:happy:)?

You're ignoring the point that those golems might retain their souls (awareness or identities, let's just say for now) after being made. And being battering rams, or whatever that people might choose to refer to golems, has very little to do with how they might be physically structured. You could make them to be both. I merely think Caradin gave them no choice in the matter, and perhaps at the time, none of those volunteers cared much. That doesn't mean they didn't get soemthing to say about it later, if they ended up becoming like Shale.

Yeah, it's funny because it has nothing to do with Sebastian.
As for the golems, Shale is the lone exception outside of Caridin that we know...her control rod is broken. The rest are controlled with rods...it's a reason her memories are lost until you return to Cadash.  The rod's condition is why her memories return. In The Stolen Throne Wilhelm still uses the control rod and it works (assuming it is Shale for this discussion).

You know perhaps we should turn the topic back to Sebastian, before this gets ugly... (All though it is interesting)
 Even though I have romanced Anders the most and never killed him and firmly anti-chantry I appriciate Sebastian as a character - he brings to light that the priest in the Chantry are human as well and not just... faceless priests.

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
You do realise that that much bodybuilding for a female is decidedly unhealthy right? It often affects their menstrual cycle and more often than not affects their ability to have children. Not that all women should have children of course, but if you're pushing yourself to the point that you're affecting your biological functions then you should really stop and think about your health.

Sitting on my ass and playing video games is decidedly more unhealthy than body building. My menstrual cycle will matter very little if every guy I meet is on a message board.

As for "societal concepts of beauty" the fact of the matter is that both girls and men find muscular bodybuilding women freakish and unnatural, even when they're comfortable with girls as they are naturally. I myself enjoy girls as they come naturally without forcing themselves to be extra thin or extra curvy or what have you.

I find smoking far more unhealthy and unnatural than body building. So is over-eating and women who don't bother to take care of that weird mustache/beard thing. What does any of that have to do with Shale and her concept of herself?

In real life the reason why you get people like that is because of chemical imbalances in their brains, because to put it bluntly they aren't working as they should be so they get surgery to change their bodies to better suit their minds since it's currently impossible to do brain surgery to make their minds better suit their bodies. So, it's reasonable to assume that since Shayle's soul was recycled and reused to fuel the body of a golem, Shale, and that golem is asexual then that soul is now asexual since it has no female organs whatsoever and doesn't mind that it is indeed an it.

Oh, I get it. May I also assume that you support the Un-Gay Me camps?

I was leaning toward it, but I consider all of your arguments null and void now.

[Monica21]

esper wrote...
You know perhaps we should turn the topic back to Sebastian, before this gets ugly... (All though it is interesting)
 Even though I have romanced Anders the most and never killed him and firmly anti-chantry I appriciate Sebastian as a character - he brings to light that the priest in the Chantry are human as well and not just... faceless priests.

Not a bad idea. I romanced Anders twice but I just couldn't do it anymore. Sebastian is actually a pretty decent LI, especially considering you get one physical encounter with the other LI's. Zero physical encounters isn't such a bad trade-off. 

Rivalmancing him is much better, I've found, unless you're RP'ing a chaste Chantry girl. The rivalmance actually feels like you are changing his mind about whether he should be a priest or a prince, rather than just going along with whatever he thinks he wants. Sebastian's rivalmance is really closer to how I would have preferred to harden Alistair. Instead of a throwaway line that makes little sense, you're actively convincing him to change his mind.

[The Xand]

esper wrote...

You know perhaps we should turn the topic back to Sebastian, before this gets ugly... (All though it is interesting)

 Even
though I have romanced Anders the most and never killed him and firmly
anti-chantry I appriciate Sebastian as a character - he brings to light
that the priest in the Chantry are human as well and not just...
faceless priests.

Shan't, Sebastien is ugleh >:

Also he's all self-righteous and religious and has a silly colour of eyes.

Monica21 wrote...
Sitting
on my ass and playing video games is decidedly more unhealthy than body
building. My menstrual cycle will matter very little if every guy I
meet is on a message board.

To be fair your menstrual cycle would matter very little if you were out there meeting a ton of guys as well, since it's icky and to be avoided. But I digress, my point was that it's unsightly because it's a strange pursuit for a woman and can do pretty serious things to women who try to take it to levels that men are capable of.

Monica21 wrote...
I find smoking far more unhealthy
and unnatural than body building. So is over-eating and women who don't
bother to take care of that weird mustache/beard thing. What does any
of that have to do with Shale and her concept of herself?

Just that body building women are unsightly and that the golems wouldn't be modelled on something found so universally unattractive. Not really much bearing on Shale and it's concept of itself though other than that it makes it look more male than female.

Monica21 wrote...Oh, I get it. May I also assume that you support the Un-Gay Me camps?

I was leaning toward it, but I consider all of your arguments null and void now.

Well no, sexuality is merely a preference and wouldn't drastically alter your life and physical well being, whereas feeling like a woman trapped in the body of a man is a serious mental disorder and one that currently needs massive corrective surgery to sort of fix.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:30 .