166 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...
You know perhaps we should turn the topic back to Sebastian, before this gets ugly... (All though it is interesting)
 Even though I have romanced Anders the most and never killed him and firmly anti-chantry I appriciate Sebastian as a character - he brings to light that the priest in the Chantry are human as well and not just... faceless priests.

Not a bad idea. I romanced Anders twice but I just couldn't do it anymore. Sebastian is actually a pretty decent LI, especially considering you get one physical encounter with the other LI's. Zero physical encounters isn't such a bad trade-off. 

Rivalmancing him is much better, I've found, unless you're RP'ing a chaste Chantry girl. The rivalmance actually feels like you are changing his mind about whether he should be a priest or a prince, rather than just going along with whatever he thinks he wants. Sebastian's rivalmance is really closer to how I would have preferred to harden Alistair. Instead of a throwaway line that makes little sense, you're actively convincing him to change his mind.

I can't play non-mages characters because I miss Carver before the Deep Roads... Bethany never makes it thorough my da2 cricis point which is between recruting the companion and before the end of act 1.
Playing as a mage I can't take Sebastian seriously as a Li because he never regonizes that Hawke is a mage - in fact he has one or two banter which is directly ridicules if you are a mage (or blood mage). In other words he suffers from the same brain sickness as Cullen does...

One banter espically pissed me off. It was the one were he wants to turn the apostates in the group in. I had just come out from Meridith's office after being threaten with the circle if I didn't help him and Sebastian starts to discuss turning Malificars in with Fenris. I know he meant Anders not Hawke, but Hawke was the only one in the group who used blood magic at the time and does Sebastian really thinks that Hawke would entertain the thought of turning her lover in? The timing of that banter was so bad that I just couldn't forgive Sebastian. He is a nice lad, but I have become to anti-chantry to ever consider him.

I don't think that rival-Sebastian is regonized as a romance. The legacy banter seems to suggest it.(Of course it could just be a bug)

[whykikyouwhy]

The Xand wrote...

esper wrote...

You know perhaps we should turn the topic back to Sebastian, before this gets ugly... (All though it is interesting)

 Even
though I have romanced Anders the most and never killed him and firmly
anti-chantry I appriciate Sebastian as a character - he brings to light
that the priest in the Chantry are human as well and not just...
faceless priests.

Shan't, Sebastien is ugleh >:

Also he's all self-righteous and religious and has a silly colour of eyes.

Monica21 wrote...
Sitting
on my ass and playing video games is decidedly more unhealthy than body
building. My menstrual cycle will matter very little if every guy I
meet is on a message board.

To be fair your menstrual cycle would matter very little if you were out there meeting a ton of guys as well, since it's icky and to be avoided. But I digress, my point was that it's unsightly because it's a strange pursuit for a woman and can do pretty serious things to women who try to take it to levels that men are capable of.

Monica21 wrote...
I find smoking far more unhealthy
and unnatural than body building. So is over-eating and women who don't
bother to take care of that weird mustache/beard thing. What does any
of that have to do with Shale and her concept of herself?

Just that body building women are unsightly and that the golems wouldn't be modelled on something found so universally unattractive. Not really much bearing on Shale and it's concept of itself though other than that it makes it look more male than female.

Monica21 wrote...Oh, I get it. May I also assume that you support the Un-Gay Me camps?

I was leaning toward it, but I consider all of your arguments null and void now.

Well no, sexuality is merely a preference and wouldn't drastically alter your life and physical well being, whereas feeling like a woman trapped in the body of a man is a serious mental disorder and one that currently needs massive corrective surgery to sort of fix.

It's nice to have an expert on anatomy, physiology, psychology and the like in our midst. I feel profoundly enlightened.

Others have already attempted to get this thread back on track, and I would like to add my voice to the same chorus because you are treading into lock-worthy territories here.

Maybe, if you truly want to discuss Shale's identity, you should start a new thread on that sole subject. Or, if you want to rant about female body-builders and how you see them as all sorts of negative things, you could start a thread on that as well in the Off-Topic section.

So...Sebastian....

[mousestalker]

How successful is Sebastian as Prince of Starkhaven (assuming you can convince him to return)?

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...
To be fair your menstrual cycle would matter very little if you were out there meeting a ton of guys as well, since it's icky and to be avoided. But I digress, my point was that it's unsightly because it's a strange pursuit for a woman and can do pretty serious things to women who try to take it to levels that men are capable of.

Why is my menstrual cycle icky? Isn't that what makes me a woman and all? And if I want to avoid it, I guess I should become a body builder. And a lot of things can mess up a woman's menstrual cycle. It still has absolutely no bearing on whether she's female.

Just that body building women are unsightly and that the golems wouldn't be modelled on something found so universally unattractive. Not really much bearing on Shale and it's concept of itself though other than that it makes it look more male than female.

"Universally" means "everyone" and not everyone finds female body builders unattractive or they'd never get dates or be married. And there are a lot of them. Laila Ali is a pretty ripped female boxer, and she is absolutely gorgeous.

There is nothing that says Caridin modelled golems after male dwarves. There are codices that says they are made of stone and metal and that is all. You see a male when you look at a golem because that's what you want to see. What you want to see is not necessarily the truth.

Well no, sexuality is merely a preference and wouldn't drastically alter your life and physical well being, whereas feeling like a woman trapped in the body of a man is a serious mental disorder and one that currently needs massive corrective surgery to sort of fix.

Yes. Brain surgery, right? Which means that the person who feels trapped in a female body and wants surgery to become a man is somehow mentally imbalanced.

[RagingCyclone]

mousestalker wrote...

How successful is Sebastian as Prince of Starkhaven (assuming you can convince him to return)?

I am actually hoping this comes up in a future post campaign dlc. Not necessarily to play but a least a possible mention. There is too much left open that I have not picked a canon Hawke yet. And I am working on #6 with #7 waiting in the wings to make that canon run.

[The Xand]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
It's nice to have an expert on anatomy, physiology, psychology and the like in our midst. I feel profoundly enlightened.

You should.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Maybe, if you truly want to discuss Shale's identity, you should start a new thread on that sole subject. Or, if you want to rant about female body-builders and how you see them as all sorts of negative things, you could start a thread on that as well in the Off-Topic section.

No, cba. I've already quite thoroughly debunked you lot

whykikyouwhy wrote...
So...Sebastian....

Is balls. Coll armour and a civilised accent but he uses that stupid bow, and is ridiculously religious for someone voiced by a Scot. He also got pissy and stormed out on me with vague threats to reclaim his city when I refused to kill mighty Anders.

[Monica21]

mousestalker wrote...

How successful is Sebastian as Prince of Starkhaven (assuming you can convince him to return)?

If you rival him he's spending his time between Acts 2 and 3 building support to return, but doesn't return until the end of Act 3, so who knows. I'm hoping there will be more in an expansion.

[MichaelFinnegan]

RagingCyclone wrote...

As for the golems, Shale is the lone exception outside of Caridin that we know...her control rod is broken. The rest are controlled with rods...it's a reason her memories are lost until you return to Cadash.  The rod's condition is why her memories return. In The Stolen Throne Wilhelm still uses the control rod and it works (assuming it is Shale for this discussion).

I wonder at what point Caradin fashioned the control rod. I don't remember it mentioned. In any case, are you suggesting that the other golems retain their memories? I honestly thought that the control rod was simply used to activate a golem or issue commands. And I'm not sure if it was merely the control rod's condition that decided whether Shale retained her self and/or got back her memories - bringing back her memories could simply have happened with her return to Cadash Thaig - irrespective of the control rod's condition. It's been a while since I played DAO, and my memories are also fading unfortunately, so I might be totally off on this one.

In any case, the last thing that Caradin says (in his journal) - "but could they see themselves, they would see perfection." They were made in the image the artist (Caradin) gave them. That's all there is to it, I suppose. Otherwise how does one explain those six-packs (or how many ever there are)? He might have made square, bulky blocks if he wasn't fashioning something he wanted.

[Monica21]

esper wrote...
I can't play non-mages characters because I miss Carver before the Deep Roads... Bethany never makes it thorough my da2 cricis point which is between recruting the companion and before the end of act 1.
Playing as a mage I can't take Sebastian seriously as a Li because he never regonizes that Hawke is a mage - in fact he has one or two banter which is directly ridicules if you are a mage (or blood mage). In other words he suffers from the same brain sickness as Cullen does...

One banter espically pissed me off. It was the one were he wants to turn the apostates in the group in. I had just come out from Meridith's office after being threaten with the circle if I didn't help him and Sebastian starts to discuss turning Malificars in with Fenris. I know he meant Anders not Hawke, but Hawke was the only one in the group who used blood magic at the time and does Sebastian really thinks that Hawke would entertain the thought of turning her lover in? The timing of that banter was so bad that I just couldn't forgive Sebastian. He is a nice lad, but I have become to anti-chantry to ever consider him.

This is unfortunate, but I think the only thing Sebastian suffers from is the, "oh, did we forget that?" writing bug. Even if you're not a blood mage Sebastian should recognize that you are a mage, and so should everyone else for that matter. 

I don't think that rival-Sebastian is regonized as a romance. The legacy banter seems to suggest it.(Of course it could just be a bug)

It's not? But... there's terribly awkward and inappropriate flirting! Well, I haven't played Legacy with a rivaled Sebastian so I'll see when I get there. He does, in a roundabout way, kind of ask you to marry him though. I had just assumed, but we know what happens when you do that.

Modifié par Monica21, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:49 .

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...
Why is my menstrual cycle icky? Isn't that what makes me a woman and all? And if I want to avoid it, I guess I should become a body builder. And a lot of things can mess up a woman's menstrual cycle. It still has absolutely no bearing on whether she's female.

My point wasn't that menstruating made a woman more feminine, but that doing something to the point that it is detrimental to the smooth functioning of your body is unnatural.

Monica21 wrote...
"Universally" means "everyone" and not everyone finds female body builders unattractive or they'd never get dates or be married. And there are a lot of them. Laila Ali is a pretty ripped female boxer, and she is absolutely gorgeous.

Ew, just...just no. The vast majority of people find female bodybuilders repellant, and while yes they might have those that find them attractive, it should also be mentioned that a lot of people have an erotic attraction to feet and that's not normal either. We call such things "fetishes"

Monica21 wrote...There is nothing that says Caridin modelled golems after male dwarves. There are codices that says they are made of stone and metal and that is all. You see a male when you look at a golem because that's what you want to see. What you want to see is not necessarily the truth.

No, ofc. Those golems are quite obviously female. How ridiculous of me to not recognise their rippling abs and broad shoulder and surly behelmed faces as female! Maybe Scottish females, but even then at a push :/

Monica21 wrote...
Yes. Brain surgery, right? Which means that the person who feels trapped in a female body and wants surgery to become a man is somehow mentally imbalanced.

Well yes, they would be by current definitions since their mental disorder impedes their health and wellbeing in a dramatic manner and requires radical surgery to correct.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
I wonder at what point Caradin
fashioned the control rod. I don't remember it mentioned. In any case,
are you suggesting that the other golems retain their memories? I
honestly thought that the control rod was simply used to activate a
golem or issue commands. And I'm not sure if it was merely the control
rod's condition that decided whether Shale retained her self and/or got
back her memories - bringing back her memories could simply have
happened with her return to Cadash Thaig - irrespective of the control
rod's condition. It's been a while since I played DAO, and my memories
are also fading unfortunately, so I might be totally off on this one.

In
any case, the last thing that Caradin says (in his journal) - "but
could they see themselves, they would see perfection." They were made in
the image the artist (Caradin) gave them. That's all there is to it,
I suppose. Otherwise how does one explain those six-packs (or how many
ever there are)? He might have made square, bulky blocks if he wasn't
fashioning something he wanted. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

I still think that merely retaining memories of a former life doesn't constitute a defining statement as to what gender you currently are.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:50 .

[mousestalker]

Monica21 wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

How successful is Sebastian as Prince of Starkhaven (assuming you can convince him to return)?

If you rival him he's spending his time between Acts 2 and 3 building support to return, but doesn't return until the end of Act 3, so who knows. I'm hoping there will be more in an expansion.

I'd love for there to be, but realistically since he's an optional companion and you only get the Starkhaven Prince part of the time at that, we probably won't see a full blown expansion on it.

But a mention, a scene, anything really would be lovely.

[Monica21]

mousestalker wrote...
I'd love for there to be, but realistically since he's an optional companion and you only get the Starkhaven Prince part of the time at that, we probably won't see a full blown expansion on it.

But a mention, a scene, anything really would be lovely.

One of the hangman PAX t-shirts was pretty clearly "Starkhaven." I'm sure we'll see more of Sebastian, but not sure how much more of a romance there will be.

[naledgeborn]

Back on topic?.... whew I was worrying about an imminent lockdown bout 3 pages ago.

Where are the mage sympathizers? Who rivaled Sebastian in the hopes of him becoming an antagonist in future content?

I want him to become a Loghain type anti-villain who lands on the Pro-Chantry side of things. After Elithina got blown up falling off the slippery slope is the only correct course of action as far as Sebastian's character development goes.

[The Xand]

Starkhaven is obviously going to be in an expansion at some point, or perhaps even Dragon Age 3. It ended on too much of an obvious cliffhanger with Sebastien storming off in a total strop back to Starkhaven if you refused to kill Anders, and if you rivalled him then he also vows to return and reclaim his title. Not sure about it being in anything but a major expansion though since Starkhaven is quite a large city and I'd hope they wouldn't just recycle Kirkwall's city environments.

naledgeborn wrote...

Where are the mage sympathizers? Who rivaled Sebastian in the hopes of him becoming an antagonist in future content?


I want him to become a Loghain type anti-villain who lands on the
Pro-Chantry side of things. After Elithina got blown up falling off the
slippery slope is the only correct course of action as far as
Sebastian's character development goes.

Mee, I made him hate mee. He was much more endearing that way.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 07:57 .

[Satyricon331]

Lord knows I'm no female bodybuilder, a typical one of whom is probably several dozen times my size, but the idea that somehow doing something atypical is also "unnatural" in some normatively notable sense is ridiculous. DA has mind-body dualism for its characters, so Shale's bodily appearance has nothing whatsoever with her gender identity even more so than people in our physicalist universe. Shale's soul is female, therefore that's what she is.

Nonetheless, I agree with the above comment that Sebastian is an ugly, ugly man

[esper]

naledgeborn wrote...

Back on topic?.... whew I was worrying about an imminent lockdown bout 3 pages ago.

Where are the mage sympathizers? Who rivaled Sebastian in the hopes of him becoming an antagonist in future content?

I want him to become a Loghain type anti-villain who lands on the Pro-Chantry side of things. After Elithina got blown up falling off the slippery slope is the only correct course of action as far as Sebastian's character development goes.

Raises hand. I hope that he becomes and antagonist for my female roamanced Anders mage... And every other mages I have...
But I still like his character and that he brings human to the chantry.

[The Xand]

Satyricon331 wrote...Nonetheless, I agree with the above comment that Sebastian is an ugly, ugly man

He has the largest nose. Like a...hawke.

[Monica21]

naledgeborn wrote...

Back on topic?.... whew I was worrying about an imminent lockdown bout 3 pages ago.

Where are the mage sympathizers? Who rivaled Sebastian in the hopes of him becoming an antagonist in future content?

I want him to become a Loghain type anti-villain who lands on the Pro-Chantry side of things. After Elithina got blown up falling off the slippery slope is the only correct course of action as far as Sebastian's character development goes.

I'm hoping however rage-y he gets all depends on if you sided with the mages or Templars. Either way, Varric does say something at the very end about how quickly fortunes change. Even if do end up Viscount something happens that either forces you out or makes you have to leave. I hope that Sebastian and Starkhaven can be friend or foe depending on those decisions.

[Monica21]

Satyricon331 wrote...
Nonetheless, I agree with the above comment that Sebastian is an ugly, ugly man

I didn't think he was unattractive, but I think all the male LI's need some work. I have a mod that makes Sebastian cuter. 

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...

I'm hoping however rage-y he gets all depends on if you sided with the mages or Templars. Either way, Varric does say something at the very end about how quickly fortunes change. Even if do end up Viscount something happens that either forces you out or makes you have to leave. I hope that Sebastian and Starkhaven can be friend or foe depending on those decisions.

It would be cool if they tailored in your choices in DA2 into what happens, ie if Starkhaven besieges Kirkwall Kirkwall is defended by either mages or Templars, or as you said having parted on friendly terms with Sebastien. Though since Sebastien was a DLC character not everyone would have played through with him so I'm not sure if tying him into DA 3 or a major expansion would be a major concern for Bioware.

[FieryDove]

The Xand wrote...

You do realise that that much bodybuilding for a female is decidedly unhealthy right? It often affects their menstrual cycle and more often than not affects their ability to have children. Not that all women should have children of course, but if you're pushing yourself to the point that you're affecting your biological functions then you should really stop and think about your health.

So does the opposite extreme being a model. Some of the modeling agencies are very strict and unfriendly to the health of the model.

Shale was a female, she retains her mind (soul) as a golem. One day she plans to become a flesh creature again by undoing what was done. (If that is even possible).

Wait was is this thread about?

Sebastian...bleh waste of a fantastic VO. (Imho)

It's ok for him to have vengence/revenge/slaughter but not anyone else. (Even the Divine). So hypocritical it's not funny anymore.

Modifié par FieryDove, 11 septembre 2011 - 08:24 .

[esper]

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...
I can't play non-mages characters because I miss Carver before the Deep Roads... Bethany never makes it thorough my da2 cricis point which is between recruting the companion and before the end of act 1.
Playing as a mage I can't take Sebastian seriously as a Li because he never regonizes that Hawke is a mage - in fact he has one or two banter which is directly ridicules if you are a mage (or blood mage). In other words he suffers from the same brain sickness as Cullen does...

One banter espically pissed me off. It was the one were he wants to turn the apostates in the group in. I had just come out from Meridith's office after being threaten with the circle if I didn't help him and Sebastian starts to discuss turning Malificars in with Fenris. I know he meant Anders not Hawke, but Hawke was the only one in the group who used blood magic at the time and does Sebastian really thinks that Hawke would entertain the thought of turning her lover in? The timing of that banter was so bad that I just couldn't forgive Sebastian. He is a nice lad, but I have become to anti-chantry to ever consider him.

This is unfortunate, but I think the only thing Sebastian suffers from is the, "oh, did we forget that?" writing bug. Even if you're not a blood mage Sebastian should recognize that you are a mage, and so should everyone else for that matter. 

I don't think that rival-Sebastian is regonized as a romance. The legacy banter seems to suggest it.(Of course it could just be a bug)

It's not? But... there's terribly awkward and inappropriate flirting! Well, I haven't played Legacy with a rivaled Sebastian so I'll see when I get there. He does, in a roundabout way, kind of ask you to marry him though. I had just assumed, but we know what happens when you do that.

Nah.. The databook said he is not. Of course the databook says a lot of thing which is blantly untrue, but from what I have read in the forum I just think that he might not be serious about it in rivalry - it is just a supicion though. I think that Hawke - no matter what s/he might choose at the end is too politcal dangerous for a rival Sebastian who wants his land back. Rember that Cassandra seems to think that Hawke is anti-chantry (no matter what Hawke does). I think that with the templars rebelling and Hawke on the vicount-route is seen as pro-templar by the chantry (even if s/he is not) and thus is forced to flee the position of  Vicount. Starkhaven is a chantry city since the Vaels are religious and so I supect that rival Sebastian simply doesn't care about Hawke enough compared to his title (in rival he has learned to be more cynical and whatever the price) and thus the legacy thing ignoring the romance more is not a bug - but it is just a supicion. 

I don't think the mage thing is a bug in Sebastian's case. He simply doesn't notice that Hawke is a mage at least no before it is too late (I don't know if he has anything after the gallows. He never made it that far). I say he suffers from the same sickness as Cullen. If he didn't he would never suggest that a mage Hawke should be Vicount. As a brother he knows that a mage can't hold political power. (if he doesn't know he is just stupid which I so far refuse to believe)

Sebastian is a nice person no doubt, but every chantry person is more and less on my enemy list right now - being nice is not an excuse or an get free of the evil organisation for free card. So he is simply an person that my hawke knows and sometimes work with, but never viable for a romance - Perhaps if I ever suceeded in making a non-mage character, but I want to try Anders and Merrill romances with non-mages as well so I doubt I will ever reach Sebastian. He is to... chantry for my taste. 

[The Xand]

FieryDove wrote...

Sebastian...bleh waste of a fantastic VO. (Imho)

They should have used his voice for a dwarven character though. I'm sick of all the dwarves sounding like yanks, it sounds so inappropriate. Dwarves are meant to be gruff and rugged and the American accent just isn't intimidating at all. Still not as bad as giving the Dalish other than Merrill Northern Irish accents though ;(

esper wrote...
Sebastian is a nice person no doubt, but every
chantry person is more and less on my enemy list right now - being nice
is not an excuse or an get free of the evil organisation for free
card. So he is simply an person that my hawke knows and sometimes
work with, but never viable for a romance - Perhaps if I ever
suceeded in making a non-mage character, but I want to try Anders and
Merrill romances with non-mages as well so I doubt I will ever reach
Sebastian. He is to... chantry for my taste. 

Apparently Seb isn't properly romanceable though because of his vows of chastity. There were a lot of gutted fans in his thread.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 08:31 .

[esper]

The Xand wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

Sebastian...bleh waste of a fantastic VO. (Imho)

They should have used his voice for a dwarven character though. I'm sick of all the dwarves sounding like yanks, it sounds so inappropriate. Dwarves are meant to be gruff and rugged and the American accent just isn't intimidating at all. Still not as bad as giving the Dalish other than Merrill Northern Irish accents though ;(

Well most dwarves comes from Orzomar at some points so it is understandable that they have the same accent... How do you think Kal-Sharok dwarves sounds?