166 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFinnegan]

The Xand wrote...

I still think that merely retaining memories of a former life doesn't constitute a defining statement as to what gender you currently are.

And is there any reason to suppose that it should not? And who gets to decide such things and on what basis?

Let's not get into the technicalities of what defines a person's identity, gender, etc. - which is left to the perception of the person itself, I'd think.

What we could note, instead, is Shale's change of perception from being an "it" - having perhaps spent a significant amount of time having lost her memories and time in confirming to what other people thought a golem ought to be, like being gender neutral, for instance - to becoming a "she" - after having discovered that she was once a dwarven woman. It is a choice she made. Something she wished to acknowledge. And later she tries to do something about it, by trying to get back her dwarven female body - just a logical flow of events.

And I just experienced that scene without being judgmental about it, or trying to rationalize it - I was merely suprised that the golem turned out to be a woman rather than what my own initial perception told me; in a sense that scene corrected my own misconception that Shale was a male.

[The Xand]

esper wrote...

Well most dwarves comes from Orzomar at some points so it is understandable that they have the same accent... How do you think Kal-Sharok dwarves sounds?

Tbqh since the Orzammar dwarves have unfortunately been saddled with Yank accents I'd actually love it if Kal'Sharok dwarves had southern US accents. Would make sense since they shared the same culture and nation but got seperated and since Kal'Sharok is the less industrious city it would fit in.

Ie like the guy in the blue suit here:



Or the narrator in this just awful game here:



Still think the dwarves should have had Scottish or Yorkshire accents though.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 08:40 .

[FieryDove]

The Xand wrote...

Apparently Seb isn't properly romanceable though because of his vows of chastity. There were a lot of gutted fans in his thread.

That is another thing that is a bit silly. (At least for fans who were interested in him). When he walked out that chantry door with bow and armor he broke all his vows. He was no longer a brother and therefore everything was moot.

[Monica21]

esper wrote...
Nah.. The databook said he is not. Of course the databook says a lot of thing which is blantly untrue, but from what I have read in the forum I just think that he might not be serious about it in rivalry - it is just a supicion though. I think that Hawke - no matter what s/he might choose at the end is too politcal dangerous for a rival Sebastian who wants his land back. Rember that Cassandra seems to think that Hawke is anti-chantry (no matter what Hawke does). I think that with the templars rebelling and Hawke on the vicount-route is seen as pro-templar by the chantry (even if s/he is not) and thus is forced to flee the position of  Vicount. Starkhaven is a chantry city since the Vaels are religious and so I supect that rival Sebastian simply doesn't care about Hawke enough compared to his title (in rival he has learned to be more cynical and whatever the price) and thus the legacy thing ignoring the romance more is not a bug - but it is just a supicion. 

I don't think the mage thing is a bug in Sebastian's case. He simply doesn't notice that Hawke is a mage at least no before it is too late (I don't know if he has anything after the gallows. He never made it that far). I say he suffers from the same sickness as Cullen. If he didn't he would never suggest that a mage Hawke should be Vicount. As a brother he knows that a mage can't hold political power. (if he doesn't know he is just stupid which I so far refuse to believe)

Sebastian is a nice person no doubt, but every chantry person is more and less on my enemy list right now - being nice is not an excuse or an get free of the evil organisation for free card. So he is simply an person that my hawke knows and sometimes work with, but never viable for a romance - Perhaps if I ever suceeded in making a non-mage character, but I want to try Anders and Merrill romances with non-mages as well so I doubt I will ever reach Sebastian. He is to... chantry for my taste. 

Well, if the Chantry-ness gets on your nerves then it's going to get on your nerves. Much the same way Anders gets on my nerves even though I largely agree with him. It's the extremism and constantly beating me over the head with a cause that I dislike, no matter whose side I'm on. 

I can say "Not all mages are bad" and "Not all Templars are bad" but I don't think I get a chance to say "Not all Chantry priests are bad." Which is true. It's that same truth that not all Christians/Muslims/Jews are bad. By Act 3 a rivaled Sebastian is still a devout Andrastian but intends to take back Starkhaven. The only thing that really worries me is that if Thedas mirrors real life at all, then Andrastians will become even more devout and the same for the pro-mage side instead of trying to find a middle ground. Middle ground is always better.

[The Xand]

FieryDove wrote...

That is another thing that is a bit silly. (At least for fans who were interested in him). When he walked out that chantry door with bow and armor he broke all his vows. He was no longer a brother and therefore everything was moot.

Aye, another thing was that at the end Elthina was dead too so he had even less ties of oath to the Chantry.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 08:45 .

[Monica21]

FieryDove wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Apparently Seb isn't properly romanceable though because of his vows of chastity. There were a lot of gutted fans in his thread.

That is another thing that is a bit silly. (At least for fans who were interested in him). When he walked out that chantry door with bow and armor he broke all his vows. He was no longer a brother and therefore everything was moot.

He does try to keep the vows, because he regrets breaking them. I think it's thoughtful, even though he isn't actually bound by any vows at that point. A friendmanced Sebastian will ask you to take vows and join him in the Chantry, but Elthina still hasn't agreed to let him retake his vows, so, I don't really get that part. 

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...

He does try to keep the vows, because he regrets breaking them. I think it's thoughtful, even though he isn't actually bound by any vows at that point. A friendmanced Sebastian will ask you to take vows and join him in the Chantry, but Elthina still hasn't agreed to let him retake his vows, so, I don't really get that part. 

That's still not exactly conductive to a hale and wholesome relationship. "Dude, let's take a vow of total celibacy together and live in a church FOREVER". It's stupid, especially if his vows are null and void. :/

[Xilizhra]

I can say "Not all mages are bad" and "Not all Templars are bad" but I don't think I get a chance to say "Not all Chantry priests are bad." Which is true. It's that same truth that not all Christians/Muslims/Jews are bad. By Act 3 a rivaled Sebastian is still a devout Andrastian but intends to take back Starkhaven. The only thing that really worries me is that if Thedas mirrors real life at all, then Andrastians will become even more devout and the same for the pro-mage side instead of trying to find a middle ground. Middle ground is always better.

Although oddly, the two worst people in the game, taking away all the crazy people who may not be wholly responsible for their actions, are Chantry priests. They're also the only Chantry priests (unless you count Sebastian) with anything like major roles: Elthina and Petrice.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 septembre 2011 - 08:54 .

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

He does try to keep the vows, because he regrets breaking them. I think it's thoughtful, even though he isn't actually bound by any vows at that point. A friendmanced Sebastian will ask you to take vows and join him in the Chantry, but Elthina still hasn't agreed to let him retake his vows, so, I don't really get that part. 

That's still not exactly conductive to a hale and wholesome relationship. "Dude, let's take a vow of total celibacy together and live in a church FOREVER". It's stupid, especially if his vows are null and void. :/

Depends on how you RP, doesn't it? 

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can say "Not all mages are bad" and "Not all Templars are bad" but I don't think I get a chance to say "Not all Chantry priests are bad." Which is true. It's that same truth that not all Christians/Muslims/Jews are bad. By Act 3 a rivaled Sebastian is still a devout Andrastian but intends to take back Starkhaven. The only thing that really worries me is that if Thedas mirrors real life at all, then Andrastians will become even more devout and the same for the pro-mage side instead of trying to find a middle ground. Middle ground is always better.

Although oddly, the two worst people in the game, taking away all the crazy people who may not be wholly responsible for their actions, are Chantry priests. They're also the only Chantry priests (unless you count Sebastian) with anything like major roles: Elthina and Petrice.

Look, I know you hate the Chantry. I know you do. Really. I do. Okay?

Elthina is a bit daft and lacking in motivation, but she's far from "the worst person in the game." And saying that Orsino and Meredith are too crazy to be responsible for their actions is a bit daft in and of itself. Meredith chose to buy the idol and make it into a sword and Orsino chose to help murder your mom and then become Harvestino. You're wrong. I'd say that Danarius, Fenris' sister, Ser Alrik, Decimus, Grace, and some other people that I haven't thought of are worse than Elthina.

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...

Depends on how you RP, doesn't it? 

Not really, sounds like it would only appeal to the most hardcore of religious fundies, nuns and monks and the like.

Quite glad I got shot of Seb now, he was such a bore. "Noo, you cannot do this" "Noo, you cannot do that". He only really got interesting when Elthina went tatties o'er the side and he swore vengeance on all of Kirkwall. Maybe when we next see him he will have black Batmanny armour and an ott gravelly voice D:

[esper]

edited

Modifié par esper, 11 septembre 2011 - 09:12 .

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Depends on how you RP, doesn't it? 

Not really, sounds like it would only appeal to the most hardcore of religious fundies, nuns and monks and the like.

 

Which, again, goes back to my point of how you RP. RP meaning playing someone who's a devout Andrastian and would want to become a Chantry sister.

[esper]

Monica21 wrote...

Well, if the Chantry-ness gets on your nerves then it's going to get on your nerves. Much the same way Anders gets on my nerves even though I largely agree with him. It's the extremism and constantly beating me over the head with a cause that I dislike, no matter whose side I'm on. 

I can say "Not all mages are bad" and "Not all Templars are bad" but I don't think I get a chance to say "Not all Chantry priests are bad." Which is true. It's that same truth that not all Christians/Muslims/Jews are bad. By Act 3 a rivaled Sebastian is still a devout Andrastian but intends to take back Starkhaven. The only thing that really worries me is that if Thedas mirrors real life at all, then Andrastians will become even more devout and the same for the pro-mage side instead of trying to find a middle ground. Middle ground is always better.

I try again since something went horrible wrong with my last post...

I fully agree with Anders plight and with the way things were going I even agrees with the method. (Which I cringe at doing, because I am in real life a pacifist. However, with the way Thedas is constructed I don't see a peacefull solotion and Elthina really showed me how much more damaging the so called no violence middle ground can be.) The way mages were treated was just no acceptable and that to the point where any action that could change the system is justified.

I am not really sure I can ready your stance on the Chantry out of your post. But I certainly can say that I know the chantry has good persons. Eltina and Sebastian were good natured person. However, being good natured and nice does not excuse you if you are a terrible leader (Elthina). They are good persons, but the chantry is an evil organisation and I will not stop fighting it in every Da game with every option I am allowed to get untill the chantry has not military and political power left. And since there is no hope of that happening in a world like Thedas I am not going to stop fighting the Chantry. I really wish I had paied more attention to the chantry in da:o, because then I would defiled those bloody ashes - unfortunately my own peacefull nature came through there and I just went with was the 'good' option. Now I think that I have unwillingly strengthened a terrible organisation... Why did I let Leliana pull wools over my eyes?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

esper wrote...

I really wish I had paied more attention to the chantry in da:o, because then I would defiled those bloody ashes - unfortunately my own peacefull nature came through there and I just went with was the 'good' option. Now I think that I have unwillingly strengthened a terrible organisation... Why did I let Leliana pull wools over my eyes?

Well, you could indulge your peaceful nature by not defiling the ashes, and by also leaving that poor dragon alone that was not bothering anyone. Eventually, the dragon takes care of the rest.

[naledgeborn]

I'm pro-mage as the next DA nut, but Elthina was not a terrible leader up until the events of DA2. She started losing her political clout because she was getting old and senile. The codex mentions this. Even then she had Meredith on a lease more or less. The codex also mentions she was the best Grand Cleric in the Free Marches ever when she was in her prime. People fall off, it happens to the best of us.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 11 septembre 2011 - 09:17 .

[esper]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

esper wrote...

I really wish I had paied more attention to the chantry in da:o, because then I would defiled those bloody ashes - unfortunately my own peacefull nature came through there and I just went with was the 'good' option. Now I think that I have unwillingly strengthened a terrible organisation... Why did I let Leliana pull wools over my eyes?

Well, you could indulge your peaceful nature by not defiling the ashes, and by also leaving that poor dragon alone that was not bothering anyone. Eventually, the dragon takes care of the rest.

Did that in the first playthroughs, but... I sort of read that dialog slides as a lot got eaten/burned by a dragon untill someone decided to steal the bloody things. So that was not really satisfying. (i did feel bad about slaying the dragon... If I ever managed to go through da:o completely again I am defiling those ashes and leaving the dragon alive.) 

[esper]

naledgeborn wrote...

I'm pro-mage as the next DA nut, but Elthina was not a terrible leader up until the events of DA2. She started losing her political clout because she was getting old and senile. The codex mentions this. Even then she had Meredith on a lease more or less. The codex also mentions she was the best Grand Cleric in the Free Marches ever when she was in her prime. People fall off, it happens to the best of us.

It is in a crisis that a leader must show themselves. She failed terrible in both act 2 and act 3 so she is a terrible leader.

[FieryDove]

Monica21 wrote...

Elthina is a bit daft and lacking in motivation, but she's far from "the worst person in the game." And saying that Orsino and Meredith are too crazy to be responsible for their actions is a bit daft in and of itself. Meredith chose to buy the idol and make it into a sword and Orsino chose to help murder your mom and then become Harvestino. You're wrong. I'd say that Danarius, Fenris' sister, Ser Alrik, Decimus, Grace, and some other people that I haven't thought of are worse than Elthina.

If Elthina had done her job there would be no dissent, best served cold quests etc., nor a Meredith with idol in power or Orsino blob. Just saying...

[naledgeborn]

esper wrote...
Did that in the first playthroughs, but... I sort of read that dialog slides as a lot got eaten/burned by a dragon untill someone decided to steal the bloody things. So that was not really satisfying. (i did feel bad about slaying the dragon... If I ever managed to go through da:o completely again I am defiling those ashes and leaving the dragon alive.) 

Why? The Fereldan Chantry isn't the same as Orlais'. Their leaders tend to be a lot more tolerant and less oppressive. This is a country that was united and again freed with the help of mages by the way.  

[The Xand]

Monica21 wrote...
 

Which, again, goes back to my point of how you RP. RP meaning playing someone who's a devout Andrastian and would want to become a Chantry sister.

Why the hell would anyone do that?

[Xilizhra]

Elthina is a bit daft and lacking in motivation, but she's far from "the worst person in the game." And saying that Orsino and Meredith are too crazy to be responsible for their actions is a bit daft in and of itself. Meredith chose to buy the idol and make it into a sword and Orsino chose to help murder your mom and then become Harvestino. You're wrong. I'd say that Danarius, Fenris' sister, Ser Alrik, Decimus, Grace, and some other people that I haven't thought of are worse than Elthina.

Blaming Meredith for the idol being... what it was, seems ridiculous. All she knew is that it was lyrium; she didn't know it was insanity-causing lyrium that would make her hallucinate of the Maker. Though considering that Bartrand instantaneously becomes murderously greedy upon seeing the idol, I'm not even sure if she really made a choice to buy it; possibly it hooked into her mind the instant she laid eyes upon it. And even not counting that, she's deeply scarred by earlier experiences and was furthermore uplifted into a position she was wholly unsuited for.
And I can't really say that Orsino "helped" to murder my mom anymore than Elthina "helped" Meredith's reign of terror. In fact, since Orsino wasn't Quentin's superior, I can say the latter way more than the former, especially since we actually got Orsino's motives for that (keeping the Circle safe), whereas we have no idea why Elthina is so horrible.
I admit that I forgot about Danarius and Hadriana. They seem sane, albeit horrible, so I suppose they're worse. I'll amend it to "worst Kirkwall natives." However, I wouldn't say Varania counts; she's implied to have sold out Fenris for personal desperation, not greed, given her parting words to Fenris about freedom being no boon. Alrik... eh, I'm not sure if he'd be insane or sane, it's somewhat hard to tell. Decimus, however, is definitely insane and possibly outright delusional, and Grace isn't that bad until she's possessed.

[naledgeborn]

esper wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I'm pro-mage as the next DA nut, but Elthina was not a terrible leader up until the events of DA2. She started losing her political clout because she was getting old and senile. The codex mentions this. Even then she had Meredith on a lease more or less. The codex also mentions she was the best Grand Cleric in the Free Marches ever when she was in her prime. People fall off, it happens to the best of us.

It is in a crisis that a leader must show themselves. She failed terrible in both act 2 and act 3 so she is a terrible leader.

She was going senile. How was she supposed to stop a bloody war if she couldn't even remember what day it was? I doubt that Elithina, 20 years prior to the events of DA2, would have let so much corruption fly under the radar. 

Modifié par naledgeborn, 11 septembre 2011 - 09:26 .

[esper]

naledgeborn wrote...

esper wrote...
Did that in the first playthroughs, but... I sort of read that dialog slides as a lot got eaten/burned by a dragon untill someone decided to steal the bloody things. So that was not really satisfying. (i did feel bad about slaying the dragon... If I ever managed to go through da:o completely again I am defiling those ashes and leaving the dragon alive.) 

Why? The Fereldan Chantry isn't the same as Orlais'. Their leaders tend to be a lot more tolerant and less oppressive. This is a country that was united and again freed with the help of mages by the way.  

It is the Chantry. The Chantry is rotten to the core... Want a malevouent god back and is tied with varoius military powers which is either dubious or oppressive. The chantry created the templars, the chantry created the crows and makers knows what the seekers is capable off. 

[Monica21]

FieryDove wrote...
If Elthina had done her job there would be no dissent, best served cold quests etc., nor a Meredith with idol in power or Orsino blob. Just saying...

In Dissent Ser Alrik went rogue. You know that Meredith and Elthina turned down his proposal for a Tranquil Solution. It was his doing entirely. I honestly can't remember the details of Best Served Cold.

What does Elthina have to do with whether Meredith buys the idol or Orsino turning into a Harvester?