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[esper]

naledgeborn wrote...

esper wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I'm pro-mage as the next DA nut, but Elthina was not a terrible leader up until the events of DA2. She started losing her political clout because she was getting old and senile. The codex mentions this. Even then she had Meredith on a lease more or less. The codex also mentions she was the best Grand Cleric in the Free Marches ever when she was in her prime. People fall off, it happens to the best of us.

It is in a crisis that a leader must show themselves. She failed terrible in both act 2 and act 3 so she is a terrible leader.

She was going senile. How was she supposed to stop a bloody war if she couldn't even remember what day it was? I'm doubt that Elithina, 20 years prior to the events of DA2, would have let so much corruption fly under the radar. 

No where does it state that Elthina is going senile... In fact she seems fully capable of normal speech and thinking. (Has a grandmother who is going senile - Elthina shows none of that). She is just a bad leader. And if she was really going senile how does that not make her a bad leader. Someone whose mental capacaity is failing is not a bad leader. That makes no sense

[Xilizhra]

naledgeborn wrote...

esper wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I'm pro-mage as the next DA nut, but Elthina was not a terrible leader up until the events of DA2. She started losing her political clout because she was getting old and senile. The codex mentions this. Even then she had Meredith on a lease more or less. The codex also mentions she was the best Grand Cleric in the Free Marches ever when she was in her prime. People fall off, it happens to the best of us.

It is in a crisis that a leader must show themselves. She failed terrible in both act 2 and act 3 so she is a terrible leader.

She was going senile. How was she supposed to stop a bloody war if she couldn't even remember what day it was? I doubt that Elithina, 20 years prior to the events of DA2, would have let so much corruption fly under the radar. 

Why? It's in the Gallows, where none of it will touch her precious "flock." Bizarrely, she only seems to care about the people ("seems" being the operative word) who aren't actually under her authority. Probably because caring about them is easier because she doesn't have to actually do anything.

[FieryDove]

Xilizhra wrote...

In fact, since Orsino wasn't Quentin's superior, I can say the latter way more than the former, especially since we actually got Orsino's motives for that (keeping the Circle safe), whereas we have no idea why Elthina is so horrible.

In my opinion that reason was...off the wall. Quentin was an apostate that ran away long ago from the starkhaven circle. There were many bloodmages in KW as we know...some even *noble*. That reasoning doesn't hold with me.

[Monica21]

The Xand wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
 

Which, again, goes back to my point of how you RP. RP meaning playing someone who's a devout Andrastian and would want to become a Chantry sister.

Why the hell would anyone do that?

Because it's a video game and you can? In case you haven't learned anything from this thread, not everyone thinks like you.

[The Xand]

esper wrote...

It is the Chantry. The Chantry is rotten to the core... Want a malevouent god back and is tied with varoius military powers which is either dubious or oppressive. The chantry created the templars, the chantry created the crows and makers knows what the seekers is capable off. 

Agreed, it's an oppressive regime too quick to resort to genocides and war to get what it wants. They seem to rely too heavily on religious indoctrination as well. Oh, and the Chantry deliberately gets it's Templars addicted to lyrium to better control them.

Monica21 wrote...

Because it's a video game and you can? In case you haven't learned anything from this thread, not everyone thinks like you.

Well uh, you have fun roleplaying a celibate nun then.

Modifié par The Xand, 11 septembre 2011 - 09:30 .

[esper]

The Xand wrote...

esper wrote...

It is the Chantry. The Chantry is rotten to the core... Want a malevouent god back and is tied with varoius military powers which is either dubious or oppressive. The chantry created the templars, the chantry created the crows and makers knows what the seekers is capable off. 

Agreed, it's an oppressive regime too quick to resort to genocides and war to get what it wants. They seem to rely too heavily on religious indoctrination as well. Oh, and the Chantry deliberately gets it's Templars addicted to lyrium to better control them.

Had forgotten that part. Again why did I let Leliana pull wools over my eyes in da:o... Grumbles about being stupid.

[naledgeborn]

esper wrote...

No where does it state that Elthina is going senile... In fact she seems fully capable of normal speech and thinking. (Has a grandmother who is going senile - Elthina shows none of that). She is just a bad leader. And if she was really going senile how does that not make her a bad leader. Someone whose mental capacaity is failing is not a bad leader. That makes no sense

Codex: Grand Cleric Elthina

Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known.

[esper]

naledgeborn wrote...

esper wrote...

No where does it state that Elthina is going senile... In fact she seems fully capable of normal speech and thinking. (Has a grandmother who is going senile - Elthina shows none of that). She is just a bad leader. And if she was really going senile how does that not make her a bad leader. Someone whose mental capacaity is failing is not a bad leader. That makes no sense

Codex: Grand Cleric Elthina

Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known.

Claim, claim, claim. That is no prove, and does not say that she is senile. I read it as saying that she had become too old and too comfortable to do anything that would rock her position
It just proves that some persons in game could see that she was incompetent as well and besides even if she was senile, having a degeneration brain capacity does not excuse you from being a bad leader - in fact it is almost a guarentee that you are going to be a bad leader. 

[naledgeborn]

Yes an old lady pushing 80 is probably a bad leader. Your grasp of the obvious is inspiring. Stop redirecting my point . This does not mean she was always a bad leader. It means she fell off. If she was spry enough to do her job properly Anders probably wouldn't have blown her up.

[Melca36]

naledgeborn wrote...

I'm pro-mage as the next DA nut, but Elthina was not a terrible leader up until the events of DA2. She started losing her political clout because she was getting old and senile. The codex mentions this. Even then she had Meredith on a lease more or less. The codex also mentions she was the best Grand Cleric in the Free Marches ever when she was in her prime. People fall off, it happens to the best of us.

The codexes are posted online...please post a link where it says she was senile. Thanks.

[esper]

naledgeborn wrote...

Yes an old lady pushing 80 is probably a bad leader. Your grasp of the obvious is inspiring. Stop redirecting my point . This does not mean she was always a bad leader. It means she fell off. If she was spry enough to do her job properly Anders probably wouldn't have blown her up.

I can't really care if Elthina was a good leader at a time when I doesn't know her, can I?
In da2 she is a bad leader. She should not have been Grand Cleric anymore, and that is it. If she had been a good leader at another time is not relevant because it is now that Kirkwall needs her at her strongest and she fails... If she came through before it does not excuse her now.

[The Xand]

To be fair, Elthina was unfortunate enough to be a reasonable person who wanted to keep the status quo and peace and not inflict damage to anyone or anywhere, but was unfortunate enough to be stuck on a powderkeg between two major factions led by unrelenting leaders. Sure she might have done better, but the ethical means to her was that of appeasement, which admittedly didn't turn out so well prior to WW2 but looking at the real world equivalent we can ascertain it was at least an approach warranted feasible enough to be tried by major world powers, so one little old lady can hardly be faulted for attempting.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

esper wrote...


Claim, claim, claim. That is no prove, and does not say that she is senile. I read it as saying that she had become too old and too comfortable to do anything that would rock her position
It just proves that some persons in game could see that she was incompetent as well and besides even if she was senile, having a degeneration brain capacity does not excuse you from being a bad leader - in fact it is almost a guarentee that you are going to be a bad leader. 

If she was going senile, it would be even more reason the Divine should have appointed a replacement, and let Elthina retire gracefully in some manner, where she could still remain a beloved figure within the Chantry, but not be in a position of importance which required leadership and important descision making.

But Elthina does not strike me as senile anyway, or losing her wits. She seems to be fully compus mentus. I actually find it ironic when she defended her "middle ground" by saying the Chantry is a gentle mother, or some such crap. I lol'd. Elthina seems more like the epic fail mother. The lazy mother who sits on the couch stuffing twinkies down her gob watching Jerry Springer while her youngest child is running around the neighborhood sacrificing cats and making homeade explosives from bleach and Draino, and her elder child is physically, emotionally, and sexually abusing the younger, and bullying nieghborhood kids in their spare time. And then when the two little psycho kids have had enough, and are now running around the house chasing each other with meat cleavers and shotguns, decides to leave it "in God's hands" and send them to their rooms. Instead of, like, calling the cops, trying to disarm them, ect....things that responsible parents are supposed to do.

Elthina is anything but a responsible "parent".

[The Xand]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
If she was going senile, it would be even more reason the Divine should have appointed a replacement, and let Elthina retire gracefully in some manner,

She got to go out with a bang at least. And ain't nobody taking her Chantry from her now.

[naledgeborn]

:lol: 

[esper]

The Xand wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
If she was going senile, it would be even more reason the Divine should have appointed a replacement, and let Elthina retire gracefully in some manner,

She got to go out with a bang at least. And ain't nobody taking her Chantry from her now.

That is not funny, that is not funny... all right that is funny.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Xand wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
If she was going senile, it would be even more reason the Divine should have appointed a replacement, and let Elthina retire gracefully in some manner,

She got to go out with a bang at least. And ain't nobody taking her Chantry from her now.

That's one way to look at it. A bright side of things!