372 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I always kill Vido though,I cringe at having to hear his voice again in ME3.

" You should have diiiiiiiiiiiied when I shot you."
"You think I won't watch these men burrrrrrn?"

I would rather listen to that blue suns lady from Grunt's RM.

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

It's very odd Zaeed doesn't hold any animosity for Shepard having him relive that traumatic experience Vido gave him back in the day.

When I saw that I thought I was going to have to fight him,like a mini-boss fight.

Or maybe he just pulls a Cal Nordo and owns your ass...

It would have been nice for Zaeed to be a Paragon enemy in ME3 with Samara being the renegade one.

That would be bad-ass,if Zaeed wasn't DLC they could have done that,I guess they could anyway...would'nt be as epic though..fighting Samara would be ALOT harder then fighting Zaeed,even though he would be the only one to barely make it out alive...jk

It would be pretty awesome...I like the idea...though I wouldn't judge Zaeed so quickly Typhoon.......Zaeed isn't stupid, he wouldn't try to tackle Shep one on one, his a smart man, he would have a clever plan and a professional mercs squad.

Like Saphra has said Zaeed could sign up with Cerberus (again) so he could have a chance at revenge against Shep.

Nah....I would be disappointed if he teamed up with Cerberus, Zaeed is a leader in his own right, I don't think he would want to bow to someone again....A well thought out plan and a merc band is what I would like to see Zaeed do....fighting smart.

[Golden Owl]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I always kill Vido though,I cringe at having to hear his voice again in ME3.

" You should have diiiiiiiiiiiied when I shot you."
"You think I won't watch these men burrrrrrn?"

I would rather listen to that blue suns lady from Grunt's RM.

...I though Sanitago was a pretty cool character myself.

[Seboist]

"Say your Goddamn prayers Massani"

His Harbinger like trash talking makes Zaeed's LM that much more awesome.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Golden Owl wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I always kill Vido though,I cringe at having to hear his voice again in ME3.

" You should have diiiiiiiiiiiied when I shot you."
"You think I won't watch these men burrrrrrn?"

I would rather listen to that blue suns lady from Grunt's RM.

...I though Sanitago was a pretty cool character myself.

:(Well I'm sorry if I offended you.


:bandit:But I stand by my opinion.
B)I respect yours though.

[Dave of Canada]

Personally, I'd like to see...
If Vido escaped: Zaeed remained a mercenary, he's spent all the time since the Suicide Mission hunting down Vido. You'll encounter him and he'll be pissed off at Shepard (loyalty or not), claiming he's trying to finish the one last important thing to him before the Reaper invasion gets him.

If Video was killed: Zaeed managed to pull a few strings and reclaimed control of the Blue Suns, after some clean up (no more Batarians) he finds himself with an army of gang members at his control. He feels like he owes Shepard and follows him/her with the Blue Suns at his back to fight the Reapers.

[Golden Owl]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I always kill Vido though,I cringe at having to hear his voice again in ME3.

" You should have diiiiiiiiiiiied when I shot you."
"You think I won't watch these men burrrrrrn?"

I would rather listen to that blue suns lady from Grunt's RM.

...I though Sanitago was a pretty cool character myself.

:(Well I'm sorry if I offended you.


:bandit:But I stand by my opinion.
B)I respect yours though.

RAGE!, RAGE!, RAGE!...You MUST agree with EVERYTHING I say!!...This is BSN after all......

[Golden Owl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Personally, I'd like to see...
If Vido escaped: Zaeed remained a mercenary, he's spent all the time since the Suicide Mission hunting down Vido. You'll encounter him and he'll be pissed off at Shepard (loyalty or not), claiming he's trying to finish the one last important thing to him before the Reaper invasion gets him.

If Video was killed: Zaeed managed to pull a few strings and reclaimed control of the Blue Suns, after some clean up (no more Batarians) he finds himself with an army of gang members at his control. He feels like he owes Shepard and follows him/her with the Blue Suns at his back to fight the Reapers.

I like....This is a brilliant proposal.....Are you listening BW!...

[Seboist]

Zaeed taking over the Blue Suns and becoming a LI for renegade femshep would be a dream come true. <3

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

Zaeed taking over the Blue Suns and becoming a LI for renegade femshep would be a dream come true. <3

I wanna see the fight over femSheps love between Zaeed and tIM in your game....

[TheZyzyva]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Personally, I'd like to see...
If Vido escaped: Zaeed remained a mercenary, he's spent all the time since the Suicide Mission hunting down Vido. You'll encounter him and he'll be pissed off at Shepard (loyalty or not), claiming he's trying to finish the one last important thing to him before the Reaper invasion gets him.

If Video was killed: Zaeed managed to pull a few strings and reclaimed control of the Blue Suns, after some clean up (no more Batarians) he finds himself with an army of gang members at his control. He feels like he owes Shepard and follows him/her with the Blue Suns at his back to fight the Reapers.

Imokwiththis.jpg

@Seboist: I get what you're saying, you would like to see more recognition from the game for being a renegade, right? I guess that makes sense, but I dunno, I still feel like most end in a proper fashion fitting a renegade Shep. I mean, if you don't like the result of a renegade decision, then to me it sounds like you don't really want to play a renegade Shep. I'm trying right now to go full 'gade, and finding it quite difficult because I never tend to agree with the renegade options, but that's my personal problem and not the games. Basically, I'm having a hard time not busting out the "deal with it" card, but I guess that's easy for me to say as someone who naturally favors the paragon options. This cake is delicious too, I might add.

[Ultai]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Introducing cameos to the Renegade choice will result in a more reactive universe for those who've decided to play that way, it doesn't have to be anything really big. Some mourning mother asking why you killed her son? Makes it feel like you've done something and allows you to further expand your Renegade Shepard (you can show remorse or be dismissive for example). Similar to how Paragons can threaten people they've saved, be nice to them or whatever (which creates a deeper Shep).

Bolded part is what I want to see for my renegon, more people challenging my decisions, and giving me the opportunity to be dismissive, or to explain why I did it, even if they don't agree or still despise me. 

Modifié par Ultai, 31 août 2011 - 10:03 .

[Yezdigerd]

Undertone wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

Undertone wrote...

A Spectre can deal with a situation however she/he feels fit. This is the whole point of becoming one. Play ME1 again maybe?

You missed the part were Shepard isn't a spectre when he kills Fist. Maybe you should take your own advice and play ME1 again.

He doesn't need to be - he is given clearance on both political and military level by the Alliance to find evidence of Saren's involvement in Eden Prime's attack in any possible way. Fist is working for Saren, what more do you want? His direct actions result in said promotion into Spectre among other things. Maybe you lack comprehension or I dunno.

Don't assume your morals, values or protocol work everywhere in the world kid, let alone are applicable to ME universe.

Udina gave Shepard the mission to investigate Saren, I missed the part where he endorsed turning the Citadel into butcher shop and conduct summary executions of petty thugs.( In fact he is quite upset after Chora's den.)  and what mandate the alliance gives Shepard should be completly irrelevant on the Citadel. Which I presume has has it own laws. Shepard has no legal authority and should be held responsibly for deaths accordingly.

Anyway "kid", I'm done with you, Your petty namecalling, internet tough guy persona and general ignorance of the subject matter bores me.

[Undertone]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

Undertone wrote...

A Spectre can deal with a situation however she/he feels fit. This is the whole point of becoming one. Play ME1 again maybe?

You missed the part were Shepard isn't a spectre when he kills Fist. Maybe you should take your own advice and play ME1 again.

He doesn't need to be - he is given clearance on both political and military level by the Alliance to find evidence of Saren's involvement in Eden Prime's attack in any possible way. Fist is working for Saren, what more do you want? His direct actions result in said promotion into Spectre among other things. Maybe you lack comprehension or I dunno.

Don't assume your morals, values or protocol work everywhere in the world kid, let alone are applicable to ME universe.

Udina gave Shepard the mission to investigate Saren, I missed the part where he endorsed turning the Citadel into butcher shop and conduct summary executions of petty thugs.( In fact he is quite upset after Chora's den.)  and what mandate the alliance gives Shepard should be completly irrelevant on the Citadel. Which I presume has has it own laws. Shepard has no legal authority and should be held responsibly for deaths accordingly.

Anyway "kid", I'm done with you, Your petty namecalling, internet tough guy persona and general ignorance of the subject matter bores me.

Chora's Den opened fire on you = self-defense. What more do you want? 

As for you, you reap what you get. I treat others as they treat me, next time quit the assuming. Especially that your values work everywhere. Just an advice - travel a bit kiddo

[Goneaviking]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Don't mistake the Mass Effect universe for the Anglo-Euro laws of war.

I don't, yet there must be some laws of the citadel for what constitutes murder and I doubt even C-sec is empowered to summary execute untrialed criminals.

What on Earth (besides being on Earth) gives you the impression that criminals have a right to a trial on the Citadel? The Magna Carta has not been prevailed upon the other species.

Besides which, it's quite clear the Council is quite happy to tolerate such things in the interests of the greater galactic good. Cold blooded executions doesn't phase them... and neither do war crimes, working for criminal cabals, or acceptable terrorism.

C-Sec is bound by regulations which provide suspects with some form of protection from C-Sec. Which is confirmed for us not only by the awareness that the Spectres' "above the law" status is special, but also because half of the dialogue with Garrus in the first game.

Members of non-Council militaries, to say nothing of krogan mercenaries, certainly don't have the right to gun down whoever they want on the Citadel. They may be able to get away with it on a case-by-case basis, but it's certainly prohibited in principle. Even if the Council doesn't care about the specifics they don't want chaos in the wards, and they don't want to become caught up in someone else's conflict because some wild card wannabe spectre wants to deal in vigilante justice.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 31 août 2011 - 12:02 .

[Goneaviking]

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Veetor decision in Freedom's Progress is another good example of a Paragon "have your cake and eat it" outcome. The alternative is rendered pointless in true renegade fashion.

Yeah, the paragon choice is "the right" choice, without any drawbacks. As for the renegade choice, it has no benefits whatsoever. Even TIM is pleasantly surprised with the quarians offering an olive branch. I think it's the only thing he's really excited about in that mission. Everything else is old news to him.

It doesn't sound like the renegade decision had any real drawbacks beyond the traumatised guy you mistreat doesn't support you in Tali's trial. But then why would you expect him to do you any favours given that the renegade decision is explicitly putting his life and health as a secondary concern to the information stored in his omnitool which you were promised anyway?

[Dean_the_Young]

Goneaviking wrote...

C-Sec is bound by regulations which provide suspects with some form of protection from C-Sec. Which is confirmed for us not only by the awareness that the Spectres' "above the law" status is special, but also because half of the dialogue with Garrus in the first game.

This wasn't a C-Sec operation, however. It was an Alliance operation.

Members of non-Council militaries, to say nothing of krogan mercenaries, certainly don't have the right to gun down whoever they want on the Citadel. They may be able to get away with it on a case-by-case basis, but it's certainly prohibited in principle.

Give the precident established... they can do just that, if they turn out to be right. A principal of 'you can be retroactively justified' is a general principal.

Even if the Council doesn't care about the specifics they don't want chaos in the wards, and they don't want to become caught up in someone else's conflict because some wild card wannabe spectre wants to deal in vigilante justice.

Fortunately Shepard was an Alliance military officer doing Alliance buisness, not a vigilante.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Well surely there must be some system to sort killings on the citadel? Can any random Salarian gun down people and get away with it saying he just killed some criminals?

If he's a soldier doing so at the behest of the Salarian Union? Probably.

Also Wrex were apprehended by C-sec for his threats to kill Fist, so it matters when it's convinient for the plot

Wrex isn't a member of a military.

Hence the word unsanctioned. And council space strike me as losely ruled rather then totalitarian.

'Sanctioned' isn't the same as 'tolerated' or 'quietly and unofficially supported'.

There are precious few totalitarian governments in the world today, but many which tolerate (but do not officially sanction) private violence against their rivals.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 31 août 2011 - 01:07 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Goneaviking wrote...

It doesn't sound like the renegade decision had any real drawbacks beyond the traumatised guy you mistreat doesn't support you in Tali's trial. But then why would you expect him to do you any favours given that the renegade decision is explicitly putting his life and health as a secondary concern to the information stored in his omnitool which you were promised anyway?

The drawback is that we had to mistreat a traumatised guy and there was absolutely no need for it.  In the real world this might be a really difficult decision: do we keep control of this guy who might have vital, life saving information we can learn - or do we treat him with kindness, but run the risk of losing the data?

In ME, it's a pretty easy decision.  Choose blue, and nothing bad will happen.  The drawback of this and every other Renegade decision is that red pretty much always results in worse outcomes than blue.

[Goneaviking]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

C-Sec is bound by regulations which provide suspects with some form of protection from C-Sec. Which is confirmed for us not only by the awareness that the Spectres' "above the law" status is special, but also because half of the dialogue with Garrus in the first game.

This wasn't a C-Sec operation, however. It was an Alliance operation.

Members of non-Council militaries, to say nothing of krogan mercenaries, certainly don't have the right to gun down whoever they want on the Citadel. They may be able to get away with it on a case-by-case basis, but it's certainly prohibited in principle.

Give the precident established... they can do just that, if they turn out to be right. A principal of 'you can be retroactively justified' is a general principal.

Even if the Council doesn't care about the specifics they don't want chaos in the wards, and they don't want to become caught up in someone else's conflict because some wild card wannabe spectre wants to deal in vigilante justice.

Fortunately Shepard was an Alliance military officer doing Alliance buisness, not a vigilante.

The Citadel is controlled by the Council which at that time did not include the Alliance. The Alliance like all "lesser races"* only had the rights given to it by the Council which can reasonably be expected to fall short of undeclared military operations and the summary execution of suspected criminals which are both activities that would pose a very real danger of dragging the Council into interspecies conflicts that they have no interest in.

Unless of course you can provide a link to a canon source of information that allows non-Council militaries to execute criminals without due process I'll continue to believe that the Council considers itself the sole legitimate authority on the Citadel.

***

That C-Sec and the Council do not pursue the matter doesn't actually legitimate it.

Given that it takes just a few minutes to reach Tali's ambush and then Shepard heads immediately to the embassy to show the evidence to Udina and Anderson who promptly head out to meet the Council so they can prove Saren's complicity in the attack on Eden Prime, it's likely that Shepard had already been promoted to Spectre before the Council learn the specifics of what went down in Chora's den.

Which would create a situation where pursuing the matter would make for a very nasty political firestorm, much easier to ignore it. Even if they genuinely care so little about it that they aren't going to investigate the death of suspected criminals it doesn't legitimate their deaths.

***

There were no warrants out on Fist, and his death was neither ordered nor sanctioned by the Alliance or the Council. Secondly, at the time Fist dies he is unarmed and poses no direct threat to anyone.

So no, killing him isn't doing Alliance business and it isn't self-defence. It's vigilantism at best, and murder either way. Having people in authority who are willing to look the other way doesn't change the nature of the act.

* Description of non-Council races given by Avina in ME1

[Goneaviking]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

It doesn't sound like the renegade decision had any real drawbacks beyond the traumatised guy you mistreat doesn't support you in Tali's trial. But then why would you expect him to do you any favours given that the renegade decision is explicitly putting his life and health as a secondary concern to the information stored in his omnitool which you were promised anyway?

The drawback is that we had to mistreat a traumatised guy and there was absolutely no need for it.  In the real world this might be a really difficult decision: do we keep control of this guy who might have vital, life saving information we can learn - or do we treat him with kindness, but run the risk of losing the data?

In ME, it's a pretty easy decision.  Choose blue, and nothing bad will happen.  The drawback of this and every other Renegade decision is that red pretty much always results in worse outcomes than blue.

That's the thing, I'm seeing people claim that the renegade action means sacrificing their morality for results but it's just not a convincing argument.

What makes it a dodgy question morally isn't that there isn't a payoff
for screwing the kid over, it's that it is explicitly stated that you
will get the information either way before you make the call.

There are plenty of people who have openly stated that they're absolutely okay with the use of torture if the potential pay off is big enough. None of those people whom I've debated with have ever regarded it as immoral; distasteful certainly but it was well within their stated code of morality and a few of them have even been willing to concede that people who later proved to be innocent should be compensated for their suffering.

[Medhia Nox]

So - if by these provided examples, and opinions - Paragons "get their cake and eat it" - then Bioware has clearly stated that the Paragon morality is superior to the Renegade morality. Bioware's game - Bioware's rules.

Of course - you are free to despise this and demand a change. ((But only cause I'm a Paragon... were I a Renegade, I'd snicker and probably punch you or kick you out a window.))

You know - all the Clint Eastwood/Charles Bronson type character were never loved either. But - they aren't weaklings who need their mommies to constantly tell them they're special snowflakes. They're badasses who get the job done no matter how many people hate them.

====

On a further note - if you believe that "red results in punishment" then why choose it? Because "you can"?

If you care how loved and celebrated you are - and want the galaxy to be a big hug fest - then choose blue.

Do you want to punch reporters and kick mercs out windows and still get a care bear stare from the populace?

"You" want to blow **** up - you want to hurt people - and say a-hole things - be best friends with a child killing Ardat Yakshi. You want to be play the human supremacist card... and, at the end of the day, you still want people to think you're Superman.

I don't get it. If I were to bother playing Renegade - I wouldn't care what the rest of the universe thinks about Shepard. Some of you must be playing against type - because "you" care, but the character shouldn't. Perhaps some of you were first borns - or only children - or favorites and, when you did something bad, mom and dad still told you that you were still their special little baby, but please don't take that out into the real world, because when you push - sometimes people will push back. If you don't like it - try being less of a douche.

Yes - I know "but Renegade options are the only logical ones". Well - Bioware absolutely disagrees with you - there isn't an argument to be made. The fact that Bioware has made them both viable options makes any discussion about which one is best completely baseless.

Of course - I've already seen the: "If Bioware doesn't agree with me, that means they're stupid." But that just comes from children, or adults with infantile mental processes, not that I expect much from people who want to be both badasses and have life be fair.

[Dean_the_Young]

Goneaviking wrote...

The Citadel is controlled by the Council which at that time did not include the Alliance. The Alliance like all "lesser races"* only had the rights given to it by the Council which can reasonably be expected to fall short of undeclared military operations and the summary execution of suspected criminals which are both activities that would pose a very real danger of dragging the Council into interspecies conflicts that they have no interest in.

Unless of course you can provide a link to a canon source of information that allows non-Council militaries to execute criminals without due process I'll continue to believe that the Council considers itself the sole legitimate authority on the Citadel.

I call to the stand Mass Effect 1.

Mass Effect 1, has the Council allowed non-Council military forces to conduct operations in and on the Citadel without prior Council approval?

Mass Effect 1 says yes. Thank you, Mass Effect 1.

That C-Sec and the Council do not pursue the matter doesn't actually legitimate it.

It rather does. Precedent is 9/10ths of civil law, and Udina had the incident handled even before you returned with proof.

Given that it takes just a few minutes to reach Tali's ambush and then Shepard heads immediately to the embassy to show the evidence to Udina and Anderson who promptly head out to meet the Council so they can prove Saren's complicity in the attack on Eden Prime, it's likely that Shepard had already been promoted to Spectre before the Council learn the specifics of what went down in Chora's den.

A few minutes of game time... if you go directly. No word on how long with gameplay/story segregation.

Which would create a situation where pursuing the matter would make for a very nasty political firestorm, much easier to ignore it. Even if they genuinely care so little about it that they aren't going to investigate the death of suspected criminals it doesn't legitimate their deaths.

There's always political implications that advise caution, even in perfectly legal things.

You get political heat if you admit that Saren is a rogue spectre to the media.

There were no warrants out on Fist, and his death was neither ordered nor sanctioned by the Alliance or the Council.

His death was a part of an Alliance sanctioned mission. It was a consequence of pursuing the mission, just as all those guards and flunkies were.

Secondly, at the time Fist dies he is unarmed and poses no direct threat to anyone.

He was in a room with turrets, and I certainly didn't strip-search him to make sure he was clear. Plus, leaving behind certainly does allow him to warn his contacts that I'm arriving, and allow him time to jeopordize the mission. Killing Fist is a viable way to protect your mission.

Plus, there's always the matter of having to accept a surrender before someone is protected. Generally that includes taking them prisoner. Was Fist ever taken prisoner? Not at all.

So no, killing him isn't doing Alliance business and it isn't self-defence. It's vigilantism at best, and murder either way. Having people in authority who are willing to look the other way doesn't change the nature of the act.

For what it's worth, you'd make a horrible occupation authority. Take that as you will.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 31 août 2011 - 04:03 .