372 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Of course - I've already seen the: "If Bioware doesn't agree with me, that means they're stupid." But that just comes from children, or adults with infantile mental processes, not that I expect much from people who want to be both badasses and have life be fair.

The irony in your concluding statement is underwhelming.

[khordlambert]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So - if by these provided examples, and opinions - Paragons "get their cake and eat it" - then Bioware has clearly stated that the Paragon morality is superior to the Renegade morality. Bioware's game - Bioware's rules.

Of course - you are free to despise this and demand a change. ((But only cause I'm a Paragon... were I a Renegade, I'd snicker and probably punch you or kick you out a window.))

You know - all the Clint Eastwood/Charles Bronson type character were never loved either. But - they aren't weaklings who need their mommies to constantly tell them they're special snowflakes. They're badasses who get the job done no matter how many people hate them.

====

On a further note - if you believe that "red results in punishment" then why choose it? Because "you can"?

If you care how loved and celebrated you are - and want the galaxy to be a big hug fest - then choose blue.

Do you want to punch reporters and kick mercs out windows and still get a care bear stare from the populace?

"You" want to blow **** up - you want to hurt people - and say a-hole things - be best friends with a child killing Ardat Yakshi. You want to be play the human supremacist card... and, at the end of the day, you still want people to think you're Superman.

I don't get it. If I were to bother playing Renegade - I wouldn't care what the rest of the universe thinks about Shepard. Some of you must be playing against type - because "you" care, but the character shouldn't. Perhaps some of you were first borns - or only children - or favorites and, when you did something bad, mom and dad still told you that you were still their special little baby, but please don't take that out into the real world, because when you push - sometimes people will push back. If you don't like it - try being less of a douche.

Yes - I know "but Renegade options are the only logical ones". Well - Bioware absolutely disagrees with you - there isn't an argument to be made. The fact that Bioware has made them both viable options makes any discussion about which one is best completely baseless.

Of course - I've already seen the: "If Bioware doesn't agree with me, that means they're stupid." But that just comes from children, or adults with infantile mental processes, not that I expect much from people who want to be both badasses and have life be fair.

Freaking A!  THANK YOU! Someone FINALY gets it and it's a bloody PARAGON of all things!

[Seboist]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

It doesn't sound like the renegade decision had any real drawbacks beyond the traumatised guy you mistreat doesn't support you in Tali's trial. But then why would you expect him to do you any favours given that the renegade decision is explicitly putting his life and health as a secondary concern to the information stored in his omnitool which you were promised anyway?

The drawback is that we had to mistreat a traumatised guy and there was absolutely no need for it.  In the real world this might be a really difficult decision: do we keep control of this guy who might have vital, life saving information we can learn - or do we treat him with kindness, but run the risk of losing the data?

In ME, it's a pretty easy decision.  Choose blue, and nothing bad will happen.  The drawback of this and every other Renegade decision is that red pretty much always results in worse outcomes than blue.

Yep, Renegade results in hollow victories with needless sacrifice.

- Why bother sacrificing the council when you can still save them and destroy sovereign with minimal losses? Don't have to worry about humans being made militarily weaker or any negative response from the brass or people back home either. Oh and you'll actually see the council unlike the alleged "human-led" one which could be the three little pigs for all Shepard knows.

- Why bother gunning down the colonists in Feros when the gas grenades actually make it easier?

- Why bother killing the Rachni Queen when there's no negative consequence in the form of animosity from the Krogan or the (very) likely chance you'll still be fighting Rachni husks anyway in ME3?

- Why bother killing criminals when they'll either become reformed (Helena Blake) or made into a humorous cameo(Fist)? They choice just exists in a bubble and disappears into a black hole if you kill them.

And so on and so on.

At best renegade choices blow up in Shepard's face and at worst the game treats it as if Renegade Shepard was on one big acid trip and imagined doing all those things she thought she did in ME1.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seboist wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

It doesn't sound like the renegade decision had any real drawbacks beyond the traumatised guy you mistreat doesn't support you in Tali's trial. But then why would you expect him to do you any favours given that the renegade decision is explicitly putting his life and health as a secondary concern to the information stored in his omnitool which you were promised anyway?

The drawback is that we had to mistreat a traumatised guy and there was absolutely no need for it.  In the real world this might be a really difficult decision: do we keep control of this guy who might have vital, life saving information we can learn - or do we treat him with kindness, but run the risk of losing the data?

In ME, it's a pretty easy decision.  Choose blue, and nothing bad will happen.  The drawback of this and every other Renegade decision is that red pretty much always results in worse outcomes than blue.

Yep, Renegade results in hollow victories with needless sacrifice.

- Why bother sacrificing the council when you can still save them and destroy sovereign with minimal losses? Don't have to worry about humans being made militarily weaker or any negative response from the brass or people back home either. Oh and you'll actually see the council unlike the alleged "human-led" one which could be the three little pigs for all Shepard knows.

- Why bother gunning down the colonists in Feros when the gas grenades actually make it easier?

- Why bother killing the Rachni Queen when there's no negative consequence in the form of animosity from the Krogan or the (very) likely chance you'll still be fighting Rachni husks anyway in ME3?

- Why bother killing criminals when they'll either become reformed (Helena Blake) or made into a humorous cameo(Fist)? They choice just exists in a bubble and disappears into a black hole if you kill them.

And so on and so on.

At best renegade choices blow up in Shepard's face and at worst the game treats it as if Renegade Shepard was on one big acid trip and imagined doing all those things she thought she did in ME1.

I am just going to take this from a recent interview.

Michael Gamble:
I get the direction for that. But the problem of making choice
available all the time is that we don’t want it to be a one-to-one
correlation all the time in terms of predictability because then
there’s no emotional up to it. You choose this and you’re going to get
this. In real life, you make choices all the time and things don’t
always happen the way you want. Now with the Reapers and the galaxy at
war, you can make a choice. You also have to know that there’s an
underlying layer of sacrifice that’s going to happen, an underlying
layer of unpredictability. In Mass
Effect 3, you make choices and your outcomes come out of
them, but how the outcomes come, there might be some
repercussions.  Never assume that everything is going to be
straightforward.

The consequences of our choices are obviosly never as straightfoward as we think. Which is why Bioware divided all the good choices/consequences and bad choices/consequences into two seperate groups called "Paragon" and "Renegade". So players will have an easier time on what choice to make!

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Zaeed taking over the Blue Suns and becoming a LI for renegade femshep would be a dream come true. <3

I wanna see the fight over femSheps love between Zaeed and tIM in your game....

Now, that's the game I wish I could play. <3 

I don't know about a "dogfight" between TIM and Zaeed but what I do know is that the make-up sex between femshep and TIM will be off the charts at the end of ME3.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_The_Young: Don't make me Paragon hug you...

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: Don't make me Paragon hug you...

You match catch Renegade.

It's been known to spread.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You match catch

Awesome. Awesome to the max.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_the_Young: I've got no problem with that.

They make creams for it now.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_the_Young: I've got no problem with that.

They make creams for it now.

Rene-gone....

[CaptainZaysh]

@Viking: re Veeto, yes you're promised the recordings the crazy guy claims to have made on his omni tool. What you've failed to consider is that, as the only eyewitness of a Collector attack in galactic history there is in fact a chance that questioning him may yield useful information. Just something for you to mull over while you're trying to work out if I did it because I'm evil or just stupid.

[CaptainZaysh]

@Mehdia: the only thing you're right about is that you don't get it.

[Medhia Nox]

@CaptainZaysh: Well, I am not a captain - so you can't expect me to get everything.

[Dean_the_Young]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

@Viking: re Veeto, yes you're promised the recordings the crazy guy claims to have made on his omni tool. What you've failed to consider is that, as the only eyewitness of a Collector attack in galactic history there is in fact a chance that questioning him may yield useful information. Just something for you to mull over while you're trying to work out if I did it because I'm evil or just stupid.

Once upon a time I felt guilty about the Veetor decision. I hadn't actually done that choice yet, and naively believed what some people claimed, that he had been tortured.

Then I actually listened to the dialogue of Veetor and his caretaker during Tali's LM, and realized that all his complaints were about his suit and shouted questions, and not that he was tortured.

Then I wanted to bop Tali about the head for refusing to come with, because she would have been better placed to fix Veetor's suit than Cerberus and could have realized that for herself. I also wanted to bop her on the head for rolling over in ME2 whenever Shepard was mentioned, but that was another matter.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 31 août 2011 - 08:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You match catch

Awesome. Awesome to the max.

Bah. Freudian strip.

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I don't know about a "dogfight" between TIM and Zaeed but what I do know is that the make-up sex between femshep and TIM will be off the charts at the end of ME3.

I'm not so sure about a dogfight either. Poor Zaeed would just willingly disappear from FemShep's life one morning, because his darkest secrets are in danger of being accidentally leaked to the entire galaxy. TIM and Zaeed are not exactly in the same weight class.

Yep, Zaeed is better for a short term fling while TIM is for the long term. TIM has looks,charm,charisma, wealth and power.  None of the chump underlings that pass for "LI" of femshep can compare to that.

[KotorEffect3]

Seboist wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I don't know about a "dogfight" between TIM and Zaeed but what I do know is that the make-up sex between femshep and TIM will be off the charts at the end of ME3.

I'm not so sure about a dogfight either. Poor Zaeed would just willingly disappear from FemShep's life one morning, because his darkest secrets are in danger of being accidentally leaked to the entire galaxy. TIM and Zaeed are not exactly in the same weight class.

Yep, Zaeed is better for a short term fling while TIM is for the long term. TIM has looks,charm,charisma, wealth and power.  None of the chump underlings that pass for "LI" of femshep can compare to that.

Garrus can fix the TIM problem with his sniper rifle.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Seboist wrote...
 TIM has looks,charm,charisma, wealth and power.  None of the chump underlings that pass for "LI" of femshep can compare to that.

^

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 31 août 2011 - 09:28 .

[Goneaviking]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Goneaviking wrote...

The Citadel is controlled by the Council which at that time did not include the Alliance. The Alliance like all "lesser races"* only had the rights given to it by the Council which can reasonably be expected to fall short of undeclared military operations and the summary execution of suspected criminals which are both activities that would pose a very real danger of dragging the Council into interspecies conflicts that they have no interest in.

Unless of course you can provide a link to a canon source of information that allows non-Council militaries to execute criminals without due process I'll continue to believe that the Council considers itself the sole legitimate authority on the Citadel.[/quote]I call to the stand Mass Effect 1.

Mass Effect 1, has the Council allowed non-Council military forces to conduct operations in and on the Citadel without prior Council approval?

Mass Effect 1 says yes. Thank you, Mass Effect 1. [/quote]

Would you care to illustrate your point with an example, or shall we keep this all vague and an unverifiable?

[quote][quote]

That
C-Sec and the Council do not pursue the matter doesn't actually legitimate it. [/quote]It rather does. Precedent is 9/10ths of civil law, and Udina had the incident handled even before you returned with proof.[/quote]

So it's okay to assume that contemporary western legal principles apply in ME now?

Okay then. Contemporary western militaries don't (theoretically) give soldiers the leeway to decide who lives and dies, though in practice they reveal themselves willing to let it slide if it seems that there won't be any significant fallout from the decision.

[quote][quote]
Given that it takes just a few minutes to reach Tali's ambush and then Shepard heads immediately to the embassy to show the evidence to Udina and Anderson who promptly head out to meet the Council so they can prove Saren's complicity in the attack on Eden Prime, it's likely that Shepard had already been promoted to Spectre before the Council learn the specifics of what went down in Chora's den.[/quote]A few minutes of game time... if you go directly. No word on how long with gameplay/story segregation.[/quote]

It's been a couple of months since I played the game so I could be remembering it incorrectly, once you've gotten the details from Fist a timer appears while you fight your way out of the club again and then mosey on over to the alley to rescue Tali. After a brief cut scene you reappear in Udina's office to give him the information which ends with him and Anderson heading to the council to deal with this urgent matter.

You can wander around as much as you want at this point, but Udina already has the Councils attention.

[quote][quote]
Which would create a situation where pursuing the matter would make for a very nasty political firestorm, much easier to ignore it. Even if they genuinely care so little about it that they aren't going to investigate the death of suspected criminals it doesn't legitimate their deaths.[/quote]There's always political implications that advise
caution, even in perfectly legal things.

You get political heat if you admit that Saren is a rogue spectre to the media.[/quote]
Indeed, politics often rear their ugly head in matters of military and  governance. It also plays a significant role in which behaviours are criminalised, which laws are enforced and who has the ability to ignore the law under what circumstances.

[quote][quote]
There were no warrants out on Fist, and his death was neither ordered nor sanctioned by the Alliance or the Council.[/quote]His death was a part of an Alliance sanctioned mission. It was a consequence of pursuing the mission, just as all those guards and flunkies were.[/quote]
The mission may have been sanctioned by Udina, and thus by the Alliance, butthe Alliance is not the sovereign power on the Citadel and does not have the power to unilaterally authorize these kinds of missions. If they did then so would the Hanar, Batarians and anyone else who has an embassy on the Citadel and that is virtual invitation to war and chaos that the Council would find very uncomfortable to deal with.

[quote][quote]
Secondly, at the time Fist dies he is unarmed and poses no direct threat to anyone.[/quote]He was in a room with turrets, and I certainly didn't strip-search him to make sure he was clear. Plus, leaving behind certainly does allow him to warn his contacts that I'm arriving, and allow him time to jeopordize the mission. Killing Fist is a viable way to protect your mission.

Plus, there's always the matter of having to accept a surrender before someone is protected. Generally that includes taking them prisoner. Was Fist ever taken prisoner? Not at all.[/quote]

The turrets had already been neutralised and he had been visibly disarmed. It's not inconceivable that he had a hidden weapon, or for that matter new martial arts, but it was apparent that he was at your mercy by this point.

Contemporary military procedure doesn't allow the killing of people who are at your mercy, regardless of whether you "accept their surrender", once again it's a matter of what you can get away with not what is legal. The Bush administration may have described the Geneva Conventions as 'quaint' and ignored them when convenient or satisfying to do so, but they remain a legal commitment that their government allows itself to be bound by.

[quote][quote]
So no, killing him isn't doing Alliance business and it isn't self-defence. It's vigilantism at best, and murder either way. Having people in authority who are willing to look the other way doesn't change the nature of the act.[/quote]For what it's worth, you'd make a horrible occupation authority. Take that as you will.[/quote]

Because the two-fisted 'due process is for sissys' approach has done wonders in Iraq and Afganistan?

The Citadel isn't under occupation and however draconian the Council and C-Sec may or may not be, they are seen to be the legitimate authority on the council.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 31 août 2011 - 09:30 .

[Seboist]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Garrus can fix the TIM problem with his sniper rifle.

Nah, Garrus is a loyal Cerberus blood brother. He proved that by saying he wished they'd join with them sooner and by providing them with schematics for the Thanix cannon.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Garrus can fix the TIM problem with his sniper rifle.

Nah, Garrus is a loyal Cerberus blood brother. He proved that by saying he wished they'd join with them sooner and by providing them with schematics for the Thanix cannon.

And then back in the actual ME universe, Garrus can fix the TIM problem.

[khordlambert]

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Garrus can fix the TIM problem with his sniper rifle.

Nah, Garrus is a loyal Cerberus blood brother. He proved that by saying he wished they'd join with them sooner and by providing them with schematics for the Thanix cannon.

And the reward for the poster most oblivious to sarcasm is...