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[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Wanting a better galaxy isn't realistic,but being a douche and killing everyone and then expecting positive outcomes is.

[UltimaRai]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Wanting a better galaxy isn't realistic,but being a douche and killing everyone and then expecting positive outcomes is.

The end justifies the means?

[ItsThat01Guy]

Is it realism? Or does the renegade make choices that will advance their own interests?

You could say that the renegade makes choices based on logic. "If I kill the Rachni Queen, then there is no chance of the Rachni becoming a threat to the galaxy. They may be peaceful for a time, but they will become hostile to the Citadel races, sooner or later."

But the Paragon also could make choices based on logic. "Destroying the Collector Base will prevent The Illusive Man and Cerberus from using the technology to cause harm to themselves and others, like they have done several times before."

Realism can apply to both the Paragon and Renegade. The Renegade that kills a murderer does it because that person has proven themselves to be a threat to everybody around them. Letting them walk away is just asking for a major crime to be commited, and Shepard will not take that chance.

The Paragon that goes out of their way to help somebody in need does it because they will gain the person's trust and respect, as well as whatever their "real" reward is. They expect that the good deed will pay off, if not for them, then for other people.

Both situations are realistic. And Shepard can expect the outcomes of those situations to occur predictibly. Not because paragons are blind idealists, but because even Paragon Shepard's ideals are based in realism.

Of course, we still don't know what the outcome is going to be, unless we metagame. In the end, we are guessing. If we make decisions based on realism, we are still just guessing, unless the Bioware devs share the exact same opinions as you.

[ItsThat01Guy]

UltimaRai wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Wanting a better galaxy isn't realistic,but being a douche and killing everyone and then expecting positive outcomes is.

The end justifies the means?

To an extent. A renegade that sacrifices a colony to give him/her time against the Reapers is doing it with the belief that they won't defeat the reapers without that sacrifice, or that they can save more in the long run by leaving the colony. The paragon will save the colony, because they believe that they will save more lives in the long run by saving the colony than by leaving it, or that the colony's value is worth the effort. Only one of them is right, but they both believe that they are the correct one.

The best-case scenario is to save the colony, and it turns out that, for some reason or another, the reapers didn't make any progress while Shepard was busy. Shepard can have his/her cake and eat it too. But this probably isn't going to happen. Some sacrifice is going to be required.

The end is the ultimate goal, but the means by which you reach the end are also important. The end only justifies the means if you can't do it a better way.

Modifié par ItsThat01Guy, 28 août 2011 - 03:55 .

[ThePwener]

Pragmatism is a double edged sword. But so is blind faith.

[Sisterofshane]

ItsThat01Guy wrote...

UltimaRai wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Wanting a better galaxy isn't realistic,but being a douche and killing everyone and then expecting positive outcomes is.

The end justifies the means?

To an extent. A renegade that sacrifices a colony to give him/her time against the Reapers is doing it with the belief that they won't defeat the reapers without that sacrifice, or that they can save more in the long run by leaving the colony. The paragon will save the colony, because they believe that they will save more lives in the long run by saving the colony than by leaving it, or that the colony's value is worth the effort. Only one of them is right, but they both believe that they are the correct one.

The best-case scenario is to save the colony, and it turns out that, for some reason or another, the reapers didn't make any progress while Shepard was busy. Shepard can have his/her cake and eat it too. But this probably isn't going to happen. Some sacrifice is going to be required.

The ends only justify the means if you can't do it a better way.

If we were talking about real life, I would I have to disagree with you on the bolded part. There are so many different outcomes to consider that to say one out of two options is the right one is a little short-sighted.  And to make decisions after-the-fact is hindsight -- it's always going to be 20/20.  So in real life, based upon your moral upbringing and the information available, you make the decision that makes the most sense to you.  The outcome of any decision you make would be completely different for you then it would be for any other person, and could be judged by a variety of different people to be either good or bad.

Also, in real life, you could use either morality to justify both of the options -- when making a decision regarding the CB, for example, a paragon could easily want to keep the base in order to save more lives using the information gained.  A renegade could choose to blow up the base because they do not want TIM to become more powerful or influential then they are (renegades look after Numero Uno, after all).  In a way, we are forced to make certain decisions based upon what Bioware has decided to morally high or low.  It might have made the game feel more realistic to make certain plot points be seperate from the morality system, and allow the player to make their own justification about the choice that they made.

However, this is a game, and we can't program limitless possible
effects/plots based upon a choice made in game, nor can we expect for every person's moral "flavor" to be accounted for within those decisions. I guess this is where some would say the game is "unrealistic".

[InvincibleHero]

Simple really. To make characters in a game believable one must apply real world priciples to the situations presented to the player. Use of logic, inductive and deductive memory, facts, and anything else from the real world makes it organic. People want to have reasons or motives for an action. To do horrible things can be justified with some reasoning such as better to sacrifice 100,000 than 10 million or a billion.

[FlyingWalrus]

"Realism" is a stupid term to use in arguments concerning fictional things.

The word people are looking for is "verisimillitude."

[ThePwener]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

"Realism" is a stupid term to use in arguments concerning fictional things.

The word people are looking for is "verisimillitude."

Education can be fun too! Except in the BSN. Then it's just sad.

[Bismth]

ThePwener wrote...

Pragmatism is a double edged sword. But so is blind faith.

I was going to say inb4bumperstickerwisdom but I see you got that covered

Modifié par Bismth, 28 août 2011 - 04:50 .

[ThePwener]

Bismth wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Pragmatism is a double edged sword. But so is blind faith.

I was going to say inb4bumperstickerwisdom but I see you got that covered

But in reality versimilitude, blind faith is even more dangerous and more bound to get you killed. Yet pragmatism has saved kingdoms from certain doom.

The complete opposite happens in ME. How disappointing. Alpha Protocol pulls it off.... there are no words.

[UltimaRai]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It is irresponsible for someone in Shepard's position to act on faith.

Sometimes that's all you have. 

[ThePwener]

UltimaRai wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It is irresponsible for someone in Shepard's position to act on faith.

Sometimes that's all you have. 

Too bad ME does it wrong in that department.Things happen no matter what you do. That's what irks me. The nearest we have to "faith" is the CB , and even then Cerberus still comes after you no matter what you do. That's bad writing. ME is too streamlined. Alpha Protocol opened my eyes.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It is irresponsible for someone in Shepard's position to act on faith.

And thus throwing our lot in with the Illusive Man is the responsible thing to do?

[khordlambert]

Again with the "Renegades" whining about their so called "realism" and claiming that Bioware coddles the Paragons.

Just a heads up, in a more "realistic" scenario, Renegade Shep would've been brought up on a war crime tribunal after wiping out that one colony despite having a nonviolent solution, or arrested for association with an organization regarded by all official governments as a terrorist organization. So you Renegades in Name only can take your claims of realism, and cry into your pillows.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

khordlambert wrote...

Again with the "Renegades" whining about their so called "realism" and claiming that Bioware coddles the Paragons.

Just a heads up, in a more "realistic" scenario, Renegade Shep would've been brought up on a war crime tribunal after wiping out that one colony despite having a nonviolent solution, or arrested for association with an organization regarded by all official governments as a terrorist organization. So you Renegades in Name only can take your claims of realism, and cry into your pillows.

Whoa man...that's a bit harsh,renegades have never resorted to insults.

[khordlambert]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It is irresponsible for someone in Shepard's position to act on faith.

And yet you act on faith that Cerberus WONT screw things up when they have the Collector base, despite their abysmal track record of NOT being killed by whatever science experiment they screwed up this week.

[khordlambert]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Whoa man...that's a bit harsh,renegades have never resorted to insults.

Y'know, thats the funniest thing i've ever read after seeing Saphra's postings.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

khordlambert wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It is irresponsible for someone in Shepard's position to act on faith.

And yet you act on faith that Cerberus WONT screw things up when they have the Collector base, despite their abysmal track record of NOT being killed by whatever science experiment they screwed up this week.

But TIM has a plan,and money,and scientist ready to die for science,it isn't faith,it is certainty.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

And thus throwing our lot in with the Illusive Man is the responsible thing to do?

If the alternative means annihilating our best chance yet to gain an advantage over the Reapers or at least achieve parity with them? Yes, it is.

It would be if we assumed control of the facility ourselves, instead of handing it over to some egomanic manipulator who'll obviously do away with you the instant you're no longer useful to him.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So like what, Shepard and the crew of the Normandy?

Who are you talking about? Who is "ourselves"?

Shepard and Lazarus, yeah. It's not like they have something else to do between the games...