372 réponses à ce sujet

[Homebound]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

i think people pull in their perception of what is real at P vs. R decisions as a form of self-affirmation.

Haha, forgot the OP was actually a "why" question. This, this, and more this.

Again, it comes down to not understanding a varience of opinion. To bash on another persons perceptions and conclusions without even trying to understand how they were arrived upon is, simply put, a d***-move. To hold yourself to such a level of infalibility while demeaning others is the trademark of a sociopath, not that I'm accusing anyone here of being one, I'm just pointing that out.

I can respect the opinions that the renegade players have expressed, but they way they are argued for is often nothing to be respected.

and as a paragade player, i can go one step further and understand/support some of their actions. Theres a point where you need to stop playing nice and bring the hammer down. But only if you have to.

[Kaiser Shepard]

 

Hellbound555 wrote...
Kaiser why do you think killing off the rachni is pegged in the game as a renegade option?

Well, I'd argue that renegades are the true paragons... just messing with ya, Pwener. 

As Shandepared once so aptly put it: "Take the risk or don't take the risk. That's what it's about." As a Spectre, it's my duty to take as few unnecessary risks as possible, hence why I kill the queen. Most of the time being a Renegade equals just that - minimizing risk - whereas Paragons take many unfounded leaps of faith, with things usually being flipped around whenever Cerberus is involved (although that depends on perspective).

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 28 août 2011 - 07:11 .

[TheZyzyva]

As far as the Rachni go, that should never be Shepards decision to make. It's the fate of an entire species, one that Humanity has nothing to judge by except the legends of the other races. It shows a high level of intelligence, it explains the old war, and it explains why the remaining Rachni are violent as well. Honestly I don't know why there isn't another option to maybe tell someone what's on Noveria and maybe someone should check it out. In a matter like that where personally I'm torn as to what to do, I er on the side of forgiveness, because even if it turns out I am wrong, I'm probably going to hear about it and know the outcome rather than have the guilt of terminating an entire species perhaps wrongfully eat away at me. Because killing it is NOT the same as killing the last hypothetical Turian.

[TheZyzyva]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As Shandepared once so aptly put it: "Take the risk or don't take the risk. That's what it's about." As a Spectre, it's my duty to take as few unnecessary risks as possible, hence why I kill the queen. Most of the time being a Renegade equals just that - minimizing risk - whereas Paragons take many unfounded leaps of faith, with things usually being flipped around whenever Cerberus is involved (although that depends on perspective).

I think this is probably the best renegade argument I've seen. Although I'd say most paragon options aren't unfounded, there are definitely some that are. I'd also say that some renegade options aren't minimizing risk but rather just taking the quick and messy way. And other times they're just down-right d***s, which is my personal issue against total renegades. Flip side of that though some paragon choices are kinda for pansies. I'll admit it.

[Goneaviking]

Plague wrote...

 When really paragon vs renegade is more idealism vs cynicism.

Pretty sure it's meant to reflect a more realistic take on it. As in, people who behave in an "idealistic" way are more credible when they appeal to idealism to get what they want, and vice versa. As opposed to simply spending points in a persuasion skill so that you're always given whatever you want irrespective of how you behave between conversations.

[GodWood]

TheZyzyva wrote...
I can respect the opinions that the renegade players have expressed, but they way they are argued for is often nothing to be respected.

Strange.

I see more insults from paragons directed at renegades then the other way around.
Even within this thread.

Modifié par GodWood, 28 août 2011 - 08:52 .

[khordlambert]

GodWood wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...
I can respect the opinions that the renegade players have expressed, but they way they are argued for is often nothing to be respected.

Strange.

I see more insults from paragons directed at renegades then the other way around.
Even within this thread.

Apparently, you don't pay attention to Saphra.

[marshalleck]

khordlambert wrote...

GodWood wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...
I can respect the opinions that the renegade players have expressed, but they way they are argued for is often nothing to be respected.

Strange.

I see more insults from paragons directed at renegades then the other way around.
Even within this thread.

Apparently, you don't pay attention to Saphra.

I see far more accusations of harboring N.azi sypmathies than I see Saphra calling people dumb. 

[Yezdigerd]

Plague wrote...

 When really paragon vs renegade is more idealism vs cynicism.

Not really, it's common that renegades kills baddies because "they don't deserve to live". a appeal to the ideal of natural justice. Many renegade options are also applies wildly excessive force to a problem, which would cause more problem then they solved in our world.

When I play I often go for what I deem the "pragmatic"choice, strangely that is most often the paragon one.
I think renegade is there for those who want to do crazy stunts, run over pedestrians, abuse the mentally handicapped, committ genocide, execute people etc. The game let people release their frustrations and suspends disbelief.

[GodWood]

Yezdigerd wrote...
Not really, it's common that renegades kills baddies because "they don't deserve to live". a appeal to the ideal of natural justice. Many renegade options are also applies wildly excessive force to a problem, which would cause more problem then they solved in our world.

When I play I often go for what I deem the "pragmatic"choice, strangely that is most often the paragon one.
I think renegade is there for those who want to do crazy stunts, run over pedestrians, abuse the mentally handicapped, committ genocide, execute people etc. The game let people release their frustrations and suspends disbelief.

Evidently you have not put much thought behind the reasoning of the renegade decisions.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Even more so if they're on a motorcycle.

Now, if only that were a viable strategy with the Hammerhead as well. Still don't understand why they won't simply patch that thing's armor to multiple times its current capacity.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It is irresponsible for someone in Shepard's position to act on faith.

And thus throwing our lot in with the Illusive Man is the responsible thing to do?

Yes. Reapers are coming. Illusive men coinsistently fought against the reapers. We need an united galaxy. Cerberus has experience with reaper tech. You got an entire base with reaper tech.

Do the math.

If you destroy the base you do it because you BELIEVE (what, that not faith no?) that he will double-cross you, even when that doens't make any sense for him to do at all.




Shepard, given his position, should use his brains and go for the solutions that help agaisnt the reapers most. So no to redicolous douche reposnses in casual conversations, no to overly naive responses.
Shepaprd is supposed to be a military man, a commander. Self-control, composure and tactical/strategic appraisal of the situation should be his defining characteristcs.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 août 2011 - 10:23 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

No, I destroy the base from what I personally perceive as a lack of faith in TIM. He didn't consistently fight the Reapers, he simply used Shepard as a means to an end, that end being the Collector Base. The moment TIM has what he wants, Shep becomes nothing more than a liability,

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

No, I destroy the base from what I personally perceive as a lack of faith in TIM. He didn't consistently fight the Reapers, he simply used Shepard as a means to an end, that end being the Collector Base. The moment TIM has what he wants, Shep becomes nothing more than a liability,

Eh? Tim consistently work against the reapers fro mthe moment he was avare of "their" existance.
After the First contact War, he realised how dangerous the galaxy really is and created Cerberus to strenghten humantiy and prepare it for the trials ahead. Granted, at first he didn't evne know what the reapers really were, but he still consistenly worked for the perservation of humanity.


You lack faith in TIM, but never bother to re-evaluate why. On what do you base that? That's he's a shady character? Big deal.

[Kaiser Shepard]

On the base that he's a schemer and a manipulator, and that those are never to be trusted. Playing straight into a magnificent bastard's hands never is what you want to do...

[Yezdigerd]

GodWood wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...
Not really, it's common that renegades kills baddies because "they don't deserve to live". a appeal to the ideal of natural justice. Many renegade options are also applies wildly excessive force to a problem, which would cause more problem then they solved in our world.

When I play I often go for what I deem the "pragmatic"choice, strangely that is most often the paragon one.
I think renegade is there for those who want to do crazy stunts, run over pedestrians, abuse the mentally handicapped, committ genocide, execute people etc. The game let people release their frustrations and suspends disbelief.

Evidently you have not put much thought behind the reasoning of the renegade decisions.

Actually I have. Doesn't abusing Manuel net you 8 renegade points? Don't you get 1 renegade for each Feros colonist you mow down?

[GodWood]

Yezdigerd wrote...
Actually I have. Doesn't abusing Manuel net you 8 renegade points? Don't you get 1 renegade for each Feros colonist you mow down?

Yes they do. Your point?

[Yezdigerd]

It was examples supporting my assertions, that renegade choices often are absurd, gratious over the top display of mindless violence.

You questioned the thought I put behind the reasoning for renegade decisions. What you meant by that you haven't specified.

[Seboist]

Yezdigerd wrote...

It was examples supporting my assertions, that renegade choices often are absurd, gratious over the top display of mindless violence.

You questioned the thought I put behind the reasoning for renegade decisions. What you meant by that you haven't specified.

There's plenty of logic behind killing the colonists in Feros and punching out Manuel. It's not "mindless".

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

On the base that he's a schemer and a manipulator, and that those are never to be trusted. Playing straight into a magnificent bastard's hands never is what you want to do...

Aaaaand?
He's a scehemer and manipulatr? So what? So is half the galaxy. Heck, you cna describe sheppard as such. How does that point to him betraying humanity???

In fact, that works as a counter-argument. Schemers are supposed ot be intelligent. Scheeemers also look out for themselves. And reapers will kill all life in the galaxy, including TIM (and TIM knows this)

TIM has been preparing humanity for 20 years to fight the reapers.
So exactly WHY would TIM turn agaisnt you? Why would he suddenl do illogical 180?
Note that "he's a scheemer" is not an answer.

[Kaiser Shepard]

So now I don't get to choose on what constitutes as a valid reason for myself?

In any case, you keep defending this hiding "Man" of yours. There is stuff he isn't telling Shepard (beyond what happened in Evolution) and it's painfully obvious he has an agenda of his own. If you want him to have his cake and eat it, go ahead, but he won't do so on my watch.

And aside from that, he still has a lot to answer for.

[lovgreno]

Plague wrote...

 When really paragon vs renegade is more idealism vs cynicism.

Yes often it is.

But the idea that all choices have consequences  that you cannot know and the fact there are at least two good points of wievs to consider (some who are afraid of being wrong finds this realy frustrating) is also in my opinion a important theme in the ME story. This makes it kind of realistic as we, even the elitist wannabees, are not unfailable gods in real life just as Shepard is in his fictional world. Sometimes we, just like Shepard, have to choose between two equaly reasonable options and take the unknown consequences. It takes some self esteem and guts to live with the uncertanty, but we and Shepard must do it, even if it's more comfortable to dismiss anyone that disagrees with your very personal opinion with the "you are a idiot for not seeing my objective truth" generalisation.

[GodWood]

Yezdigerd wrote...
It was examples supporting my assertions, that renegade choices often are absurd, gratious over the top display of mindless violence.

Often now?

I'll admit there are a few minor renegade choices that are a tad silly but the majority are completely logical and pragmatic.

You questioned the thought I put behind the reasoning for renegade decisions. What you meant by that you haven't specified.

What I meant is that you haven't put much thought behind why a Shepard would make these choices and instead just assume that they're "for teh lulz".

Modifié par GodWood, 28 août 2011 - 01:40 .