372 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

ThePwener wrote...

So denying the existance of future beings doesn't count? You are sick or just dumb. I never expected such things from you Kaiser. So you would make those choices if it was all real? Sure you would. Yo'd commit suicide soon after.

Pwener, before you get too high on your high horse, let's recall that every fertile male or female you've killed so far has denied the existence of future potential beings. That Asari Commando? The Batarin slaver? The Human merc? All the potential fathers and mothers of future generations.

About the only people you could kill without denying the existance of future beings are the strictly xenophiles or homosexuals who won't breed, and even that ignores the possibility of artificial insemination.

'Future generations' has a place in consideration, but it's one that has to be applied for others as well.

[Yezdigerd]

GodWood wrote...

Often now?

I'll admit there are a few minor renegade choices that are a tad silly but the majority are completely logical and pragmatic.

What I meant is that you haven't put much thought behind why a Shepard would make these choices and instead just assume that they're "for teh lulz".

I can list dozens of cases but if you have played the game and find the majority of the renegade decisions "logical and pragmatic" I suspect its pointless. and I'd be very surprised if I haven't put more thought into these choices then most people who has played this game.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 28 août 2011 - 02:23 .

[TMA LIVE]

There's a difference between killing someone and preventing them from having a future kid, and killing something which will eliminate an entire species. There are plenty of other Asari Commandos, Batarian slavers, and human mercs, to make up for one dead. Nor is killing one wiping on their entire race. While with the Rachni, there is only one Rachni Queen (that we know of anyways) in the galaxy. Kill her, and they're dead for good (unless cloned).

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 août 2011 - 02:31 .

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

There's a difference between killing someone and preventing them from having a future kid, and killing something which will eliminate an entire species. There are plenty of other Asari Commandos, Batarian slavers, and human mercs, to make up for one dead. Nor is killing one wiping on their entire race. While with the Rachni, there is only one Rachni Queen (that we know of anyways) in the galaxy. Kill her, and they're dead for good (unless cloned).

And that distinction is 'killing the last', not 'denying future generations'. One is a unique aspect of killing the last of a fertile population, the other an intrensic of killing any fertile individual capable of reproduction.

The question becomes, as with all questions faced when weighing the life of an individual, is what that individual will result in the future.

The Rachni Queen isn't a broad-spectrum genocide question, but the question of an individual who is also the last. The broad-spectrum genocide is the neutron purge of all the other Rachni still loose, and that doesn't even register as a paragon/renegade decision. Neither does the annihalation of a planet of some 300,000 persons, with just about 299,999 more lives than the Rachni Queen.

[TMA LIVE]

If we're judging by the individual, we don't have enough data to make a fair judgement. We're told the Rachni that are hostile are like that because they were taken from their mother, by both the Rachni Queen, and a scientist. We can assume they'll be hostile regardless, since they started a war, yet we never knew why. We only know they attacked first after opening an uncharted Relay, and they never negotiated. Yet here's one that's talking to us, and had nothing to do with that conflict. Nor is there anything saying that this Rachni Queen will try to make war, besides suspicion.

But killing her wipes out her race. You're average Rachni Soldier can't bread as far as I'm aware. One Rachni soldier running around Noveria won't save anything, besides maybe the chance to clone soldiers if captured. Keep her alive, and the Rachni will continue for generations. Kill her, and their species dies.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 août 2011 - 03:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

So now I don't get to choose on what constitutes as a valid reason for myself?

In any case, you keep defending this hiding "Man" of yours. There is stuff he isn't telling Shepard (beyond what happened in Evolution) and it's painfully obvious he has an agenda of his own. If you want him to have his cake and eat it, go ahead, but he won't do so on my watch.

And aside from that, he still has a lot to answer for.

No, you don't.

You have to explan why you come to conclusion X. If you can't back that conclusion up with anything, then it's validity is in question. Of course, you can ask if a "gut feeling" is a valid reason, but for big nad importnat decisions, that would be a no.

And you didn't really answer. You judge him based on some things from novels and you're basicly cherry-picking. Him having to answer for some bad things he did has little to do with him fighting the reapers. Whihc is exactly why he's been doing those things.

Again, you dont' trust him because you simply don't like him. And that's it. You're mistrust is not based on anything solid. You don't have any hint or nay proof he would turn agaisnt you, yet you believe it, simply because you hate him.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

If we're judging by the individual, we don't have enough data to make a fair judgement. We're told the Rachni that are hostile are like that because they were taken from their mother, by both the Rachni Queen, and a scientist. We can assume they'll be hostile regardless, since they started a war, yet we never knew why. We only know they attacked first after opening an uncharted Relay, and they never negotiated. Yet here's one that's talking to us, and had nothing to do with that conflict. Nor is there anything saying that this Rachni Queen will try to make war, besides suspicion.

But killing her wipes out her race. You're average Rachni Soldier can't bread as far as I'm aware. One Rachni soldier running around Noveria won't save anything, besides maybe the chance to clone soldiers if captured. Keep her alive, and the Rachni will continue for generations. Kill her, and their species dies.

The question arises - how much can you trust the Rachnii queen. And how much value you put on the survival of a species (and in this case, one that was already extinct).

If I had to choose between 100 humans and the rachnii queen, I'd choose the humans. The future or the rachnii is not my concern really.

That said, if you're looking for allies, then ot spare her might be a good idea. If you're willing to take the risks. But given that they were extermianted, you have to ask yourtself how good of an ally they would make in the first place.

[TMA LIVE]

Well, every race makes makes war for one reason or another. Even cultures. If we killed just because of the chance of future war, then the US might as well nuke Germany, Japan, and any other country that once made war with them, or any country that's a possible threat, the second they can get away with it, and eliminate in one hit. There is no such thing as a zero chance of war with someone.

If I had to choose between 100 humans and the Rachni, or just 100 humans, I'd pick the outcome where both live, if it seems possible. I'd pick the other if it seemed more likely their race will never offer peace, and only war.

The choice of knowing if a stranger will be a good person or an enemy is always a gamble, unless you know the future.

Either way, if they were killable before, then they can always be killed again. It's just a matter of, do you want to make the gamble and perserve future life for the Rachni? Or destory them, and not risk a possible future war, with deaths. Are any of these certain? No. Which is why it's a gamble.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 août 2011 - 04:10 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, you don't.

You have to explan why you come to conclusion X. If you can't back that conclusion up with anything, then it's validity is in question. Of course, you can ask if a "gut feeling" is a valid reason, but for big nad importnat decisions, that would be a no.

And you didn't really answer. You judge him based on some things from novels and you're basicly cherry-picking. Him having to answer for some bad things he did has little to do with him fighting the reapers. Whihc is exactly why he's been doing those things.

Again, you dont' trust him because you simply don't like him. And that's it. You're mistrust is not based on anything solid. You don't have any hint or nay proof he would turn agaisnt you, yet you believe it, simply because you hate him.

Oh, I do.

I don't judge him based on knowledge my Shepard couldn't possibly have, just the stuff I do know from the games. That and what I expect him to do based on that, like I did with the rachni queen as well. Like every other big decision. As Shepard himself so aptly put it after blowing up the Base: "I know what you are, and the price of dealing with you."

If you can't see how Mr. Illusive is just using Shepard for his own goals, so be it. If you're willing to forgive him for his past transgressions, then you do so. But I won't stand for it, and Jubileus be damned if I'm going to let it happen on my watch.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat Terra.

TMA LIVE wrote...

Either way, if they were killable before, then they can always be killed again. It's just a matter of, do you want to make the gamble and perserve future life for the Rachni? Or destory them, and not risk a possible future war, with deaths. Are any of these certain? No. Which is why it's a gamble.

Well then, I guess it's a good thing we still have the krogan ready and willing to fight for us...

[Seboist]

TIM has Jubileus' grace, you don't.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Fiat iustitia, et pereat Terra.

+1.

[Golden Owl]

TheZyzyva wrote...

As far as the Rachni go, that should never be Shepards decision to make. It's the fate of an entire species, one that Humanity has nothing to judge by except the legends of the other races. It shows a high level of intelligence, it explains the old war, and it explains why the remaining Rachni are violent as well. Honestly I don't know why there isn't another option to maybe tell someone what's on Noveria and maybe someone should check it out. In a matter like that where personally I'm torn as to what to do, I er on the side of forgiveness, because even if it turns out I am wrong, I'm probably going to hear about it and know the outcome rather than have the guilt of terminating an entire species perhaps wrongfully eat away at me. Because killing it is NOT the same as killing the last hypothetical Turian.

As I feel also...Shep doesn't have enough information, nor should he really be the one and only voice to decide, the decision it too big.

Many of the decisions Shep faces in both games do not provide enough information for him to really make those calls, whether they be paragon, neutral or renegade.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 29 août 2011 - 12:02 .

[Seboist]

The ideal Paragon/Neutral choice for the Rachni Queen decision would be to keep her in a restricted area under close surveillance by the Alliance/Council military until it could gradually be determined that it's safe to let her go and even then they should still keep close tabs on her.

Releasing her into the "wild" unsupervised is EXTREMELY dangerous and downright foolhardy considering that at the time she doesn't even offer any future assistance. Even though I had "renegade" reasons for letting her go it's the decision I have the biggest reservations about from ME1.

[Ryzaki]

Oh boy another paragon vs renegade fight?

At least this isn't a "which is more realistic!" debate.

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

The ideal Paragon/Neutral choice for the Rachni Queen decision would be to keep her in a restricted area under close surveillance by the Alliance/Council military until it could gradually be determined that it's safe to let her go and even then they should still keep close tabs on her.

Releasing her into the "wild" unsupervised is EXTREMELY dangerous and downright foolhardy considering that at the time she doesn't even offer any future assistance. Even though I had "renegade" reasons for letting her go it's the decision I have the biggest reservations about from ME1.

Absolutely!....this would be a brilliant solution.

Out of curiousity Seboist, what is your renegade reasoning for releasing her?

Modifié par Golden Owl, 29 août 2011 - 12:25 .

[Seboist]

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The ideal Paragon/Neutral choice for the Rachni Queen decision would be to keep her in a restricted area under close surveillance by the Alliance/Council military until it could gradually be determined that it's safe to let her go and even then they should still keep close tabs on her.

Releasing her into the "wild" unsupervised is EXTREMELY dangerous and downright foolhardy considering that at the time she doesn't even offer any future assistance. Even though I had "renegade" reasons for letting her go it's the decision I have the biggest reservations about from ME1.

Absolutely!....this would be a brilliant solution.

Out of curiousity Seboist, what is your renegade reasoning for releasing her?

I wanted the Rachni as a human ally against the "reapers and beyond".  

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I puked a little when I read that...

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The ideal Paragon/Neutral choice for the Rachni Queen decision would be to keep her in a restricted area under close surveillance by the Alliance/Council military until it could gradually be determined that it's safe to let her go and even then they should still keep close tabs on her.

Releasing her into the "wild" unsupervised is EXTREMELY dangerous and downright foolhardy considering that at the time she doesn't even offer any future assistance. Even though I had "renegade" reasons for letting her go it's the decision I have the biggest reservations about from ME1.

Absolutely!....this would be a brilliant solution.

Out of curiousity Seboist, what is your renegade reasoning for releasing her?

I wanted the Rachni as a human ally against the "reapers and beyond".  

LOL......Of course, how could I not guess that....

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Rachni Queen-" Together we shall sing of our new song of peace,oh wait,your human dominance agenda doesn't sit well with me...I'll help you beat the reapers but after that I'm going to eat your face."

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 29 août 2011 - 12:42 .

[Seboist]

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The ideal Paragon/Neutral choice for the Rachni Queen decision would be to keep her in a restricted area under close surveillance by the Alliance/Council military until it could gradually be determined that it's safe to let her go and even then they should still keep close tabs on her.

Releasing her into the "wild" unsupervised is EXTREMELY dangerous and downright foolhardy considering that at the time she doesn't even offer any future assistance. Even though I had "renegade" reasons for letting her go it's the decision I have the biggest reservations about from ME1.

Absolutely!....this would be a brilliant solution.

Out of curiousity Seboist, what is your renegade reasoning for releasing her?

I wanted the Rachni as a human ally against the "reapers and beyond".  

LOL......Of course, how could I not guess that....

It's the same with the Krogans and why I kept the genophage data. My Shepard plans on building a human-led coalition of non-citadel aliens in order to launch "Operation Galactic Storm" against the three council races.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...
I wanted the Rachni as a human ally against the "reapers and beyond".  

A human ally, or just Cerberus?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...


It's the same with the Krogans and why I kept the genophage data. My Shepard plans on building a human-led coalition of non-citadel aliens in order to launch "Operation Galactic Storm" against the three council races.

Oh..bet you're going to be bummed when the turians and krogan unite...

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...
I wanted the Rachni as a human ally against the "reapers and beyond".  

A human ally, or just Cerberus?

They're one in the same. An ally for Cerberus is an ally for every human.

[Seboist]

HomelessGal wrote...

Cerberus is humanity.

True and Father Harper is humanity's saviour.