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[Shimmer_Gloom]

100k wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Of course plot is an element of this particular game (where as in something like Super Mario Brothers it is not). But it hardly is the most important element. Especially since it is so heavily shaped by the player. I would say that 'story beats' are more applicable than 'plot' to a game.

In a series now popular for spanning three games, plot + story = very important. Paramount, I'd say.

Plot is how the events shape the STORY. 'Story beats' (my term feel free to make your own) are about how the events shape the player's experience.

I think the term you're thinking of is "plot points"?

Eh.  Maybe?  I think my made up term is a little better because I don't want to emphsize plot.  Plot is how everything fits together and that is less important than the idividual moments in a game. 

And your point about Mass Effect being a story spanning three games is a good one.  But 'story' and 'plot' are not exactly the same thing, as we have been discussing.

Also, lets adress the specific point of Shep's death.  It seems to be one of the biggest arguments around for ME2 sucking.

[100k]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

100k wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Yeah, Uncharted is a blast. But it's hardly got a better track record when it comes to wonky plot twists. That doesn't stop it from being a game of near unparalleled quality though.

And that is, again, my point. Games make crappy literature in the same way that comics make crappy sculpture.

I thought the plot twists were handled rather well.

The Undead Spaniards in the first have perfect build up. The writings on the wall, the half chewed corpse, Eddie explaining Drake isn't the only one killing his men.

The Yeti ice monsters in 2 had similar build up. Lampshaded the objects we see and then Schafers statement. Later on, we see what he means.

What makes these things work is that the characters react to them, it shows that this is beyond the normal, and makes the characters organic to the story. The character development in 2 in particular is extremely well done. We get hints of these characters backstories without ever being told, all while we're doing the business of the plot. We learn more about who these characters are from the choices they make. The same thing with Drake and Eddie

There are few problems like Flynn magically appearing on the train, Or the contrived way of them just happening to end up at the right temple. However, they aren't magically pulled out of nowhere, they aren't illogical, because we the audience constantly know how A leads to B.

What I love about Uncharted (2) is that even though it's cliche, its so well organized and excecuted.. Hell, my city's paper had a giant end of year article on it's entertainment page. They basically said that it was way better than the most recent Indiana Jones, and was a good step for maturing gaming.

Mass Effect is cliche in many ways as well. I don't see how things being cliche diminish their value. Like you said, organised, and well executed. The writing is short, consise and clear. Making for a good story.

Drake's Deception looks like they are going to mess with a few cliches and tip them on their head. I cannot wait to see what they do with Drake's character and how it ties into Sir Franscis.

The fact that they'll be combining a more personal and emotional story with stuff like this... 



My body is ready.

[Notlikeyoucare]

100k wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

100k wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Yeah, Uncharted is a blast. But it's hardly got a better track record when it comes to wonky plot twists. That doesn't stop it from being a game of near unparalleled quality though.

And that is, again, my point. Games make crappy literature in the same way that comics make crappy sculpture.

I thought the plot twists were handled rather well.

The Undead Spaniards in the first have perfect build up. The writings on the wall, the half chewed corpse, Eddie explaining Drake isn't the only one killing his men.

The Yeti ice monsters in 2 had similar build up. Lampshaded the objects we see and then Schafers statement. Later on, we see what he means.

What makes these things work is that the characters react to them, it shows that this is beyond the normal, and makes the characters organic to the story. The character development in 2 in particular is extremely well done. We get hints of these characters backstories without ever being told, all while we're doing the business of the plot. We learn more about who these characters are from the choices they make. The same thing with Drake and Eddie

There are few problems like Flynn magically appearing on the train, Or the contrived way of them just happening to end up at the right temple. However, they aren't magically pulled out of nowhere, they aren't illogical, because we the audience constantly know how A leads to B.

What I love about Uncharted (2) is that even though it's cliche, its so well organized and excecuted.. Hell, my city's paper had a giant end of year article on it's entertainment page. They basically said that it was way better than the most recent Indiana Jones, and was a good step for maturing gaming.

Mass Effect is cliche in many ways as well. I don't see how things being cliche diminish their value. Like you said, organised, and well executed. The writing is short, consise and clear. Making for a good story.

Drake's Deception looks like they are going to mess with a few cliches and tip them on their head. I cannot wait to see what they do with Drake's character and how it ties into Sir Franscis.

The fact that they'll be combining a more personal and emotional story with stuff like this... 



My body is ready.

Too shay, my friend. The wait is painful.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Too shay?
Touché?

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 04 septembre 2011 - 06:54 .

[100k]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

100k wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Of course plot is an element of this particular game (where as in something like Super Mario Brothers it is not). But it hardly is the most important element. Especially since it is so heavily shaped by the player. I would say that 'story beats' are more applicable than 'plot' to a game.

In a series now popular for spanning three games, plot + story = very important. Paramount, I'd say.

Plot is how the events shape the STORY. 'Story beats' (my term feel free to make your own) are about how the events shape the player's experience.

I think the term you're thinking of is "plot points"?

Eh.  Maybe?  I think my made up term is a little better because I don't want to emphsize plot.  Plot is how everything fits together and that is less important than the idividual moments in a game. 

And your point about Mass Effect being a story spanning three games is a good one.  But 'story' and 'plot' are not exactly the same thing, as we have been discussing.

Also, lets adress the specific point of Shep's death.  It seems to be one of the biggest arguments around for ME2 sucking.

What do you want to discuss about Shepard's death? With all due respect, we've been over it several times. 

I don't think that it made the game suck -- but its definitely one of three big factors for me. 

[Notlikeyoucare]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Too shay?
Touché?

Too Shay!

[Nashiktal]

Actually cliche's are bad thing, the word you are looking for is tropes. Tropes are unavoidable for good writing, cliche's are unavoidable for bad writing.

"Tropes are devices and conventions that a writer can reasonably rely on as being present in the audience members' minds and expectations. On the whole, tropes are not clichés. The word clichéd means "stereotyped and trite." In other words, dull and uninteresting."

Modifié par Nashiktal, 04 septembre 2011 - 07:03 .

[Notlikeyoucare]

I don't think any of the moments in the story alone, are enough to ruin it. When you lump all of these things together, yes.... it is quite hard to take the story seriously.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Nashiktal wrote...

Actually cliche's are bad thing, the word you are looking for is tropes.

Tropes are unavoidable, cliche's are. In fact look up the tropes page for mass effect, its a very fun read.

True, but when cliche is used in the same context as trope is when the word cliche doesn't become a problem.

[Someone With Mass]

I actually found it to be good that Shepard and the rest aren't dwelling on his death that much. Then they can move on with other more important things. I mean, it wouldn't be that fun if Tali and Jacob were moping about the deaths of their fathers throughout the rest of the game, while pretty much halting any character progression.

Many people have accepted death as a part of life, even. There are only so many times the "I was dead for two years" card works before it gets old, you know?

[Nashiktal]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Actually cliche's are bad thing, the word you are looking for is tropes.

Tropes are unavoidable, cliche's are. In fact look up the tropes page for mass effect, its a very fun read.

True, but when cliche is used in the same context as trope is when the word cliche doesn't become a problem.

Read my edited post.

[Nashiktal]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I actually found it to be good that Shepard and the rest aren't dwelling on his death that much. Then they can move on with other more important things. I mean, it wouldn't be that fun if Tali and Jacob were moping about the deaths of their fathers throughout the rest of the game, while pretty much halting any character progression.

Many people have accepted death as a part of life, even. There are only so many times the "I was dead for two years" card works before it gets old, you know?

And there is only so many times I can hear an "i got better" joke before I stop taking the game seriously. Its not like shep has to mope and become melodramatic to look into his death. At the very least he should be curious about the procedure, if not so he can know the side effects...

Like being hacked. That would be kind of important to know, especially when we are fighting god machine AI's.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Nashiktal wrote...

Actually cliche's are bad thing, the word you are looking for is tropes. Tropes are unavoidable for good writing, cliche's are unavoidable for bad writing.

"Tropes are devices and conventions that a writer can reasonably rely on as being present in the audience members' minds and expectations. On the whole, tropes are not clichés. The word clichéd means "stereotyped and trite." In other words, dull and uninteresting."

Yes that is true. I suppose I should have worded my sentence better.

[Someone With Mass]

Nashiktal wrote...

And there is only so many times I can hear an "i got better" joke before I stop taking the game seriously. Its not like shep has to mope and become melodramatic to look into his death. At the very least he should be curious about the procedure, if not so he can know the side effects...

Like being hacked. That would be kind of important to know, especially when we are fighting god machine AI's.

True. 

Then again, I found Overlord to be more of an insult to my intelligence than anything in the main game, so I really don't care if he was "hacked" or not.

[DarthSliver]

Nashiktal wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I actually found it to be good that Shepard and the rest aren't dwelling on his death that much. Then they can move on with other more important things. I mean, it wouldn't be that fun if Tali and Jacob were moping about the deaths of their fathers throughout the rest of the game, while pretty much halting any character progression.

Many people have accepted death as a part of life, even. There are only so many times the "I was dead for two years" card works before it gets old, you know?

And there is only so many times I can hear an "i got better" joke before I stop taking the game seriously. Its not like shep has to mope and become melodramatic to look into his death. At the very least he should be curious about the procedure, if not so he can know the side effects...

Like being hacked. That would be kind of important to know, especially when we are fighting god machine AI's.

Yup i too find it odd that Shepard never looks into his death/revivial and all the details. Its like Shepard was like "Cool I survived death, now where should i point my gun". Nitpicking Mass Effect 2, Id say Shepard's Death and everything involved with it is what I dont like about Mass Effect 2. Its just one of thoses things that cant be overlooked.

[Nashiktal]

It makes me wonder if miranda, (or maybe that doctor guy who tried to kill you, that was a bit odd as well, but explained I think) put something in you to make you more compliant or something, or perhaps the cybernetics changed your personality in a subtle way?

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

It makes me wonder if miranda, (or maybe that doctor guy who tried to kill you, that was a bit odd as well, but explained I think) put something in you to make you more compliant or something, or perhaps the cybernetics changed your personality in a subtle way?

Well actually you can just role-play that the ressurection brought about a change in your personality. I actually did that once; I transferred over my full Paragon Shepard from ME1 to ME2 and then made him a Renegade.

[Nashiktal]

111987 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

It makes me wonder if miranda, (or maybe that doctor guy who tried to kill you, that was a bit odd as well, but explained I think) put something in you to make you more compliant or something, or perhaps the cybernetics changed your personality in a subtle way?

Well actually you can just role-play that the ressurection brought about a change in your personality. I actually did that once; I transferred over my full Paragon Shepard from ME1 to ME2 and then made him a Renegade.

I did the same thing with my femshep playthrough actually, but that's not what I am talking about. Its just that in the first game, shep was very curious, even about things s/he should already know about as common knowledge. It just felt a bit wierd that such a life changing experience isn't questioned just a little bit, or that even the two medical personel on board doesn't ask any questions.

In fact I am sure Mordin would be absolutely curious about this project. A genius looking for the biggest puzzle would probably go absolutely nuts over such a thing. (A bit off topic, but sometimes it sounds like the crew go to mordin more than chakwas. Poor chakwas...) I am sure Miranda would have wanted to inform shep of the intimate details to reassure him, and I have a hard time believing that she would allow shep to be left unaware of such a dangerous tactical weakness.

It just raises question after question you know?

[marshalleck]

Nashiktal wrote...

111987 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

It makes me wonder if miranda, (or maybe that doctor guy who tried to kill you, that was a bit odd as well, but explained I think) put something in you to make you more compliant or something, or perhaps the cybernetics changed your personality in a subtle way?

Well actually you can just role-play that the ressurection brought about a change in your personality. I actually did that once; I transferred over my full Paragon Shepard from ME1 to ME2 and then made him a Renegade.

I did the same thing with my femshep playthrough actually, but that's not what I am talking about. Its just that in the first game, shep was very curious, even about things s/he should already know about as common knowledge. It just felt a bit wierd that such a life changing experience isn't questioned just a little bit, or that even the two medical personel on board doesn't ask any questions.

In fact I am sure Mordin would be absolutely curious about this project. A genius looking for the biggest puzzle would probably go absolutely nuts over such a thing. (A bit off topic, but sometimes it sounds like the crew go to mordin more than chakwas. Poor chakwas...) I am sure Miranda would have wanted to inform shep of the intimate details to reassure him, and I have a hard time believing that she would allow shep to be left unaware of such a dangerous tactical weakness.

It just raises question after question you know?

They're questions the writers have no good answers for because this was a hackneyed and ill-conceived idea to begin with, so they just write Shepard off as utterly non-circumspect about his or her own technomagical death and resurrection. 

[Someone With Mass]

I'm willing to look past Shepard's curiosity in ME1, because they needed to set a foundation for most species, worlds ad events.

Not much need for that in ME2, since they already have a complete Codex from the first game.

Then again, I thought Shepard was curious about most things in ME2, like quarian government, the genophage and the STG or how the geth works.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm willing to look past Shepard's curiosity in ME1, because they needed to set a foundation for most species, worlds ad events.

Not much need for that in ME2, since they already have a complete Codex from the first game.

Then again, I thought Shepard was curious about most things in ME2, like quarian government, the genophage and the STG or how the geth works.

Then what is their excuse for Shepard's lack of curiosity when something new and mysterious is introduced?

[Someone With Mass]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...
Then what is their excuse for Shepard's lack of curiosity when somethin[/u][u]g new and mysterious is introduced?

There's no time to think about it?

[Notlikeyoucare]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...
Then what is their excuse for Shepard's lack of curiosity when somethin[/u][u]g new and mysterious is introduced?

There's no time to think about it?

So there's time to ask about this when needing to stop Saren, but not the Collector's? Why not? What's the sense of time they're trying to establish here?

[Nashiktal]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...
Then what is their excuse for Shepard's lack of curiosity when somethin[/u][u]g new and mysterious is introduced?

There's no time to think about it?

But there is? We do have enough time to buy some ship models after all. Time is not an issue at all. 

Hell we even have time to get sex advice from a salarian.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 04 septembre 2011 - 08:28 .

[Someone With Mass]

Shepard is actually acting curious about the Collectors. Just talk to Mordin.

Shepard also seemed to have no problem stopping in the middle of the assault on the Collector base to ask EDI about her speculations on the human Reaper.