6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

Then don't we have time to ask about the effects of the Lazarus project? Aside from the obvious of course.

[Someone With Mass]

Nashiktal wrote...

Then don't we have time to ask about the effects of the Lazarus project? Aside from the obvious of course.

Sure, but I don't think it's a necessity.

Shepard was dead, and now he's back. Questioning his death and revival won't change anything for most characters.

Like Jacob. I'd rather like if he could've talked about the Corsairs instead of Shepard's past, since I'm more interested about the characters around me instead of the character I am. I know what character I am. I don't need the game to tell me that.

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Then don't we have time to ask about the effects of the Lazarus project? Aside from the obvious of course.

Sure, but I don't think it's a necessity.

Shepard was dead, and now he's back. Questioning his death and revival won't change anything for most characters.

Like Jacob. I'd rather like if he could've talked about the Corsairs instead of Shepard's past, since I'm more interested about the characters around me instead of the character I am. I know what character I am. I don't need the game to tell me that.

Except the answer to how it was accomplished and the implications for Shepard could be critical. I hope I won't see you complaining about being blindsided with Shepard becoming a partial Reaper avatar ala Saren, due to all the Reaper-tech he was implanted with to bring him back to life!

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 septembre 2011 - 09:21 .

[111987]

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Then don't we have time to ask about the effects of the Lazarus project? Aside from the obvious of course.

Sure, but I don't think it's a necessity.

Shepard was dead, and now he's back. Questioning his death and revival won't change anything for most characters.

Like Jacob. I'd rather like if he could've talked about the Corsairs instead of Shepard's past, since I'm more interested about the characters around me instead of the character I am. I know what character I am. I don't need the game to tell me that.

Except the answer to how it was accomplished and the implications for Shepard could be critical. I hope I won't see you complaining about being blindsided with Shepard becoming a partial Reaper avatar ala Saren, due to all the Reaper-tech he was implanted with to bring him back to life!

Thanks for spoiling Mass Effect 3 for me...

[Nashiktal]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Then don't we have time to ask about the effects of the Lazarus project? Aside from the obvious of course.

Sure, but I don't think it's a necessity.

Shepard was dead, and now he's back. Questioning his death and revival won't change anything for most characters.

Like Jacob. I'd rather like if he could've talked about the Corsairs instead of Shepard's past, since I'm more interested about the characters around me instead of the character I am. I know what character I am. I don't need the game to tell me that.

I do think its necesarry. Its not clear, it apparently has dangerous side effects, and I am concerned no one is concerned!

It doesn't have to be emotional as I already said, but its just logical that we at least question it. A short rundown on what the lazerous project was, what they did, how they did it... Did they have to mess with the nervous system? Can shep have children? (not that I want any in the game, but that is still a very important question for someone) What happens if I need an MRI? (Not that they do those anymore, but what I mean, shep has a lot of metal now) What happens in combat? 

Oh and getting hacked is still pretty important. 

Look, I see you don't think its important but why can't we at least get an option to ask? There are a LOT of legitimate reasons to ask, and that doesn't even touch upon the "drama" or literary devices they could have used with it. Whether its medical in a concerned for the future sense, tactical as in concern for what his new body could be sensitive to during battle, (as silly as it was, it happend. Shep got hacked.) is his body a danger to anyone esle, any reason he shouldnt be worried, is there anything he can or cant do now whether physically or legally?

There are tons of legitimate questions, why can't we ask?

[Someone With Mass]

How do we know that it's Reaper tech?

If his implants are somehow hackable, (I really don't see the point in hacking the cybernetic parts that are holding Shepard's bones together beyond trying to kill him) then just upgrade them so they're less affected by outside influence.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Then don't we have time to ask about the effects of the Lazarus project? Aside from the obvious of course.

Sure, but I don't think it's a necessity.

Shepard was dead, and now he's back. Questioning his death and revival won't change anything for most characters.

Like Jacob. I'd rather like if he could've talked about the Corsairs instead of Shepard's past, since I'm more interested about the characters around me instead of the character I am. I know what character I am. I don't need the game to tell me that.

I do think its necesarry. Its not clear, it apparently has dangerous side effects, and I am concerned no one is concerned!

It doesn't have to be emotional as I already said, but its just logical that we at least question it. A short rundown on what the lazerous project was, what they did, how they did it... Did they have to mess with the nervous system? Can shep have children? (not that I want any in the game, but that is still a very important question for someone) What happens if I need an MRI? (Not that they do those anymore, but what I mean, shep has a lot of metal now) What happens in combat? 

Oh and getting hacked is still pretty important. 

Look, I see you don't think its important but why can't we at least get an option to ask? There are a LOT of legitimate reasons to ask, and that doesn't even touch upon the "drama" or literary devices they could have used with it. Whether its medical in a concerned for the future sense, tactical as in concern for what his new body could be sensitive to during battle, (as silly as it was, it happend. Shep got hacked.) is his body a danger to anyone esle, any reason he shouldnt be worried, is there anything he can or cant do now whether physically or legally?

There are tons of legitimate questions, why can't we ask?

To be fair, Shepard does ask about the Lazarus Project; he asks both Miranda and Jacob about it. Jacob isn't a scientist so he doesn't know much about it, and Miranda just gives a non-answer and starts talking about how she would have done things differently if she was in charge, blah blah blah. If anything, Miranda's non-answer is the problem, not Shepard's lack of curiosity.

[Nashiktal]

I would still say its both. Sheps apparent lack of concern over the project (which holds lots of implications for other aspects of his job if that comes up) and Miranda's non answer annoy me. I hope we get some clarification on sheps new body in ME3. If he does end up being hacked by a reaper or fried because he is hit by overload in the story, i'm going to get pretty annoyed if it happens without warning.

Outside of that one poorly understood incident in the dlc of course,

[dreman9999]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

What I don't understand about these haters/nit pickers is...do you analyze every game with this much detail and with this negative/skeptical of an eye? Cause if you did, you would never enjoy any game...which defeats the purpose of playing video games.

I never set out to nitpick games, but if something jumps out at me and starts bothering me it's impossible to ignore.

For ME2 the main thing I noticed the first time through was that both "twists" in teh game fell flat on their face and at the end I realized little had been accomplished as far as the main plot goes.

The Collectors being Protheans didn't mean much. It didn't change the nature of the fight.

The Collectors building a human Reaper didn't change much. It didn't change the nature of the fight.

Contrast this to the revelation that Sovereign actually IS a Reaper and Saren is just a puppet, that the mass relays are NOT Prothean technology but instead Reaper technology left for us to find.

Then recall learning that the Citadel is a trap. These things together totally changed the nature of the problem for the protagonists. All of a sudden our situation became more dire and were in a lot more peril.

ME2 doesn't have anything like this. None of the 'revelations' change anything.

It's not like Luke learning that Vader is his father. That changed things because it made Luke's quest a lot harder and more personal for him. It also implied greater danger by depicting one possible fate for him.

There's no ME2 equivalent in the main plot. Outside the main plot there is a nice series of twists and those are the Heretic/orthodox geth split and the plans for war by the quarians. Those were the most interesting and dramatic parts of the game for me. Those are what I am most eager to see play out in ME3.

Part of this I do agree but I does have it. Remeber thefirst time your found the pods in suicide mission? That was the start of the major twist in ME2.....But it fell flat due to the boss design....It was that stupid.......Also, the reveil of the collecters being prothean my not change the nature of the fight,it did change the perspective.......The collector were throw away pawns....a we lost many colonies just to take down half a reaper and the reaper still has many of themselvesleft over. We lost many people to them, even possibly including squadandcrew members, ...and they only lost 1 1/2......Grime facts.

[dreman9999]

Nashiktal wrote...

111987 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

It makes me wonder if miranda, (or maybe that doctor guy who tried to kill you, that was a bit odd as well, but explained I think) put something in you to make you more compliant or something, or perhaps the cybernetics changed your personality in a subtle way?

Well actually you can just role-play that the ressurection brought about a change in your personality. I actually did that once; I transferred over my full Paragon Shepard from ME1 to ME2 and then made him a Renegade.

I did the same thing with my femshep playthrough actually, but that's not what I am talking about. Its just that in the first game, shep was very curious, even about things s/he should already know about as common knowledge. It just felt a bit wierd that such a life changing experience isn't questioned just a little bit, or that even the two medical personel on board doesn't ask any questions.

In fact I am sure Mordin would be absolutely curious about this project. A genius looking for the biggest puzzle would probably go absolutely nuts over such a thing. (A bit off topic, but sometimes it sounds like the crew go to mordin more than chakwas. Poor chakwas...) I am sure Miranda would have wanted to inform shep of the intimate details to reassure him, and I have a hard time believing that she would allow shep to be left unaware of such a dangerous tactical weakness.

It just raises question after question you know?

Their's two way you a can look at that. Bioware made so new players are not left out....or Shepard has some bad memeory problems..

[dreman9999]

Someone With Mass wrote...

How do we know that it's Reaper tech?

If his implants are somehow hackable, (I really don't see the point in hacking the cybernetic parts that are holding Shepard's bones together beyond trying to kill him) then just upgrade them so they're less affected by outside influence.

Techniclly.....everything is Reaper tech...

[dreman9999]

111987 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Then don't we have time to ask about the effects of the Lazarus project? Aside from the obvious of course.

Sure, but I don't think it's a necessity.

Shepard was dead, and now he's back. Questioning his death and revival won't change anything for most characters.

Like Jacob. I'd rather like if he could've talked about the Corsairs instead of Shepard's past, since I'm more interested about the characters around me instead of the character I am. I know what character I am. I don't need the game to tell me that.

Except the answer to how it was accomplished and the implications for Shepard could be critical. I hope I won't see you complaining about being blindsided with Shepard becoming a partial Reaper avatar ala Saren, due to all the Reaper-tech he was implanted with to bring him back to life!

Thanks for spoiling Mass Effect 3 for me...

Project Rho....

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

I'm being hyperbolic because it's late, I'm tired, and probably shouldn't be responding at this point.  If I ofended, apoligies, though I don't apologize for having these views.

Alternatives to death have been given many times, varying from Shepard only being moistly dead (in a coma) to being a prisoner, being laughed out of Council space, kidnapped by the Shadow Broker, you name it.  That s just stuff I can recall off the top of my head.

Games as art:  There are many types of games.  And these types are all judged differntly.  But many games, particularly rpgs, and especially Bioware games have story as a very strong part.  It is in fact, an interactive piece of literature (not capital-L literature, of course)  Try and say that Jade Empire's story is unimportant.  Or Deus Ex: Human Revolution.  Red Dead Redemption.  It's integral to these games.  No story, no game.  Some goes for Mass Effect.  He ehole pont of importing saves is to continue the story.  

Maybe I wouldn't judge the latest Madden or Diablo games on the same basis as Mass Effect.  But Mass Effect is supposed to be closer to the cinematic experience of a movie or a tv show than those are.

I don't understand how you can say plot is unimportant.  Plot runs through all these things:  immersion, progression, choice, or the illusion therof. , worldbuilding.  All of those things have pieces of the plot in them.  And the plot provides the reason for all these things to exist.

Games are experiences.  Games are stories.  Games are experiencing stories.

This post gets it 100%, and I'd like to elaborate further. Games are unique in that they are an interactive medium. Take any other form of entertainment (books, movies, comics) and the reader is a passive recipient in the experience. That style brings with it certain strengths, as the creator is able to ensure that everyone receives the same experience, but one potential limitation is the connection which the viewer can feel to any character/event, since there is an invisible wall between them and the story.

As an active form of entertainment, games are different. Half-Life 2. Bioshock. Legacy of Kain. Knights of the Old Republic. Deus Ex. In each of these games, the developers encourage the idea that the player is their character, to a great extent. You typically experience everything from their point of view, take control as they become involved in epic storylines. The end result (if done correctly) is that you have a greater connection to the events unfolding on screen.

Modifié par Il Divo, 04 septembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

It's speculations like this that have me convinced to wait until I can get some general spoilers about the plot of ME3 before I buy the game.

If Shep has to die, I won't buy it.
If Shep is partially Reaper or is temporarily taken over somehow by the Reapers, I won't buy it.
If certain characters die, I won't buy it.
If certain characters betray Shep, I won't buy it.
Etc.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 04 septembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's speculations like this that have me convinced to wait until I can get some general spoilers about the plot of ME3 before I buy.

If Shep has to die, I won't buy it.
If Shep is partially Reaper or is temporarily taken over somehow by the Reapers, I won't buy it.
If certain characters die, I won't buy it.
If certain characters betray Shep, I won't buy it.
Etc.

Good thing Bioware is not going to show the plot before the game is out... Guess youhave to play it,become upset at anything in the game and write a10 page article why on a game forum.

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 septembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[Notlikeyoucare]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's speculations like this that have me convinced to wait until I can get some general spoilers about the plot of ME3 before I buy.

If Shep has to die, I won't buy it.
If Shep is partially Reaper or is temporarily taken over somehow by the Reapers, I won't buy it.
If certain characters die, I won't buy it.
If certain characters betray Shep, I won't buy it.
Etc.

Good thing Biowar is not going to show the plot before the game is out... Guess youhave to play it,become upset at anything in the game and write a10 page article why on a game forum.

Time to get out my rum, hat with a skull and crossbones on it, and do some sword fighting

[Il Divo]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's speculations like this that have me convinced to wait until I can get some general spoilers about the plot of ME3 before I buy.

If Shep has to die, I won't buy it.
If Shep is partially Reaper or is temporarily taken over somehow by the Reapers, I won't buy it.
If certain characters die, I won't buy it.
If certain characters betray Shep, I won't buy it.
Etc.

Good thing Biowar is not going to show the plot before the game is out... Guess youhave to play it,become upset at anything in the game and write a10 page article why on a game forum.

I do wish we could see something more interesting. I'm picking up Mass Effect 3 no matter what, but the marketing/demos have not really impressed me at all. Maybe they should release some spoilers to shake things up.

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's speculations like this that have me convinced to wait until I can get some general spoilers about the plot of ME3 before I buy.

If Shep has to die, I won't buy it.
If Shep is partially Reaper or is temporarily taken over somehow by the Reapers, I won't buy it.
If certain characters die, I won't buy it.
If certain characters betray Shep, I won't buy it.
Etc.

Good thing Biowar is not going to show the plot before the game is out... Guess youhave to play it,become upset at anything in the game and write a10 page article why on a game forum.

The plot will get out, either before or after the release date.

I don't need to buy the game on the moment of release -- Bioware also made sure that will never happen again with DA2...

[Notlikeyoucare]

Il Divo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's speculations like this that have me convinced to wait until I can get some general spoilers about the plot of ME3 before I buy.

If Shep has to die, I won't buy it.
If Shep is partially Reaper or is temporarily taken over somehow by the Reapers, I won't buy it.
If certain characters die, I won't buy it.
If certain characters betray Shep, I won't buy it.
Etc.

Good thing Biowar is not going to show the plot before the game is out... Guess youhave to play it,become upset at anything in the game and write a10 page article why on a game forum.

I do wish we could see something more interesting. I'm picking up Mass Effect 3 no matter what, but the marketing/demos have not really impressed me at all. Maybe they should release some spoilers to shake things up.

If the stuff about Origin being required is true, I won't even buy this for PS3 let alone PC.

Modifié par Notlikeyoucare, 04 septembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

What, if the opening was 'silk toilet paper,' why did you even play the rest of the game? If was so horrible why would you not return it to the store? Could it be that you are being hyperbolic?

That was a rhetorical question of course you are being hyperbolic.

Also, you didn't answer my question very well. Having the Normandy destroyed and killing Shep sets up the entire game. And you have not given an alternative that even comes close to giving us the same result.

"If a game cannot be judged by it's plot, characters, or pacing, it will never be considered a form of art." I disagree COMPLETELY. My entire argument is that we judge a game by different criteria.

Would you judge elements of Form (a three dimensional element) in a comic book (a two dimensional medium)? Of course not! Sculpture is judged by different criteria than 2d art.

So, in the grand scheme of things, plot is VERY unimportant in a game. Game-play, immersion, difficulty progression, illusion of choice, world building... the lexicon of game critisism is completely different than literature and it is as it SHOULD BE.

Games are experiences. Not stories.

You could not be more wrong.

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's speculations like this that have me convinced to wait until I can get some general spoilers about the plot of ME3 before I buy.

If Shep has to die, I won't buy it.
If Shep is partially Reaper or is temporarily taken over somehow by the Reapers, I won't buy it.
If certain characters die, I won't buy it.
If certain characters betray Shep, I won't buy it.
Etc.

Good thing Biowar is not going to show the plot before the game is out... Guess youhave to play it,become upset at anything in the game and write a10 page article why on a game forum.

The plot will get out, either before or after the release date.

I don't need to buy the game on the moment of release -- Bioware also made sure that will never happen again with DA2...

That was DA2.....With another team that clearly rushed it....And you really want to spoil the story for yourself?

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's speculations like this that have me convinced to wait until I can get some general spoilers about the plot of ME3 before I buy.

If Shep has to die, I won't buy it.
If Shep is partially Reaper or is temporarily taken over somehow by the Reapers, I won't buy it.
If certain characters die, I won't buy it.
If certain characters betray Shep, I won't buy it.
Etc.

Good thing Biowar is not going to show the plot before the game is out... Guess youhave to play it,become upset at anything in the game and write a10 page article why on a game forum.

The plot will get out, either before or after the release date.

I don't need to buy the game on the moment of release -- Bioware also made sure that will never happen again with DA2...

That was DA2.....With another team that clearly rushed it....And you really want to spoil the story for yourself?

I'd rather know something about it going in, than invest my time (and money) in a story I'm going to hate. 

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Bolded for emphasis.  The purpose of role-playing is to express the emotions the character feels.  If I decide my character feels a given emotion, but I cannot express that fact, I am not role playing.

If I feel a great deal of pity for the Collectors and regret the necessity of destroying them, but Shepard instead shrugs and says "doesn't matter" that's not role playing.

 If Shepard is brought back from the dead after two years, and is incurious to the point of being oblivious to this fact, that is not role playing (unless I'm role playing a Shepard Cerberus didn't manage to put back together quite right)

I will grant that the limitations of disk space and production costs limit the amount of role playing any computer game can provide.  But ME2 is missing some very basic reactions to heavy topics here.

I so don't want this to turn into a "what is an RPG" thread 

I disagree. What if a Shepard delivers the line I want, but not in the way I want him to? Or is forced into a decision I do not want? Ultimately, we can go line by line and critique every piece of dialogue to have come out of Mass Effect, but I don't think we'd be better off for it. Without getting into the "RPG debate", cRPGs will always have greater limitations placed on them. ME2 prevented you from exploring certain dialogue/choice options, but I could say the same for ME1.

Modifié par Il Divo, 04 septembre 2011 - 01:37 .

[Gabriel S.]

Watching his videos is depressing because I see a lot of things I kept questioning myself, but I didn't want to think about it too much because it kinda makes the game stop being fun.

Seriously, stop watching these if you're one bit analytical, it has the potential of COMPLETELY ruining the experience for you!

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

iakus wrote...

No story, no game.  Some goes for Mass Effect.  He ehole pont of importing saves is to continue the story.  

Maybe I wouldn't judge the latest Madden or Diablo games on the same basis as Mass Effect.  But Mass Effect is supposed to be closer to the cinematic experience of a movie or a tv show than those are.

I don't understand how you can say plot is unimportant.  Plot runs through all these things:  immersion, progression, choice, or the illusion therof. , worldbuilding.  All of those things have pieces of the plot in them.  And the plot provides the reason for all these things to exist.

Games are experiences.  Games are stories.  Games are experiencing stories.

Not really. Gaming has little to nothing to do with stories. What you're saying here is basically the same thing as saying a movie with badly done special effects is a bad movie. That's not true, there are many movies with bad, or without, special effects that are excellent. Just like you have games without a story or plot that are great.

Games are about gameplay mechanics. When you're looking at pre-rendered cutscenes you're not playing a game at all.

I'm totally in love with the Total War series. It's a strategy game without a "plot" or "story" but it's still an immersive experience, with progression, worldbuilding, and choice. The player creates his/her own version of "history" (or "story", or "plot" if you wish). Whether one plays the original version or a modified one is irrelevant - the original version of Medieval Total War 2 plays exactly like the brilliant Third Age Total War mod (based on the Lord of the Rings movies and books) for example.

Point being, the setting and story behind the world do not change the game at all. They, however, can add that little extra. MTW2 players who love Tolkien's world could prefer conquering Middle Earth instead of Medieval Europe, for example (and still play the same game).

no story =/= no game. A good story has about as much impact on the overall experience as the graphics and sound effects - they don't make or break the game, but they can make it a more exciting and convincing experience. Things change when the story and plot become a part of the gameplay mechanics. ME tries to do something like that, but the "influence" the player has is very insignificant so far (hopefully ME3 will change this). I don't consider receiving a different email, or meeting a different character with slightly changed dialogue, to be gameplay related (the squadies who survived in ME1 (or not) have no impact on what Shepard can or cannot do in ME2 - for example).