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[Guldhun2]

Gorosaur wrote...
I could say the same thing about Mass Effect 2, and I think you'd have some harsh comments for me.

Plottus holeus maximus

[TuringPoint]

Whatever faults with the ME universe, ME1 and ME2, they are very immersive. It is the only reason I play those games. A significant majority of game plots I get a taste of don't give me anywhere near the same immersion, interest, or in-character choice.

[KotorEffect3]

Alocormin wrote...

Whatever faults with the ME universe, ME1 and ME2, they are very immersive. It is the only reason I play those games. A significant majority of game plots I get a taste of don't give me anywhere near the same immersion, interest, or in-character choice.

this

[Nashiktal]

Because despite what you think of the man himself, the points he raises are valid critiques. You are dismissing his critiques because you don't like the man, so why are you trying to be a part of this discussion?

If you don't like him, fine we are not forcing you to talk about him, but we will discuss the flaws of Mass Effect 2 so that Bioware can improve for the next game and beyond.

[Nashiktal]

Alocormin wrote...

Whatever faults with the ME universe, ME1 and ME2, they are very immersive. It is the only reason I play those games. A significant majority of game plots I get a taste of don't give me anywhere near the same immersion, interest, or in-character choice.

I agree with you for the most part. Bioware does a great job with immersion, which is why ME2 confuses me all the more. ME2 just shift gears in such a way that can sometimes be immersion breaking.

Like that shuttle ride to nowhere. When I did legions quest, I did it last. So my team had nowhere to go, nothing to do. No quests to undertake... Just loading up all twelve squadmates, some pretty big I might add, into that tiny shuttle and off into space. Then that human reaper... That was... Different. Then the death and resurection, not so much the death itself, but how it was handled.

I just wonder why. Was it because Drew left and Mac had to pick up the slack so suddenly? Were the writing teams not communicating enough? (That happened in ME1 as well) What was the problem, and how can it be fixed? How can it be avoided in the future?

[100k]

Nashiktal wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Whatever faults with the ME universe, ME1 and ME2, they are very immersive. It is the only reason I play those games. A significant majority of game plots I get a taste of don't give me anywhere near the same immersion, interest, or in-character choice.

I agree with you for the most part. Bioware does a great job with immersion, which is why ME2 confuses me all the more. ME2 just shift gears in such a way that can sometimes be immersion breaking.

Like that shuttle ride to nowhere. When I did legions quest, I did it last. So my team had nowhere to go, nothing to do. No quests to undertake... Just loading up all twelve squadmates, some pretty big I might add, into that tiny shuttle and off into space. Then that human reaper... That was... Different. Then the death and resurection, not so much the death itself, but how it was handled.

I just wonder why. Was it because Drew left and Mac had to pick up the slack so suddenly? Were the writing teams not communicating enough? (That happened in ME1 as well) What was the problem, and how can it be fixed? How can it be avoided in the future?

It was probably EA. They really want to get their big titles out as soon as possible. If your producer tells you to jump, you don't ask how high. You jump.

[Whatever42]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Whatever faults with the ME universe, ME1 and ME2, they are very immersive. It is the only reason I play those games. A significant majority of game plots I get a taste of don't give me anywhere near the same immersion, interest, or in-character choice.

this

Well, utlimately, this is what Bioware pays attention to. I point out again that ME2 has a 50% completion rate versus the RDR completion rate of 10%.

While we RPG nerds love hours of dialogue or text that gives us a detailed history of every niggling plot point, most players more enjoy the cinematic movie experience. When you create a game that is cinematic, you have different priorities, such as creating cool scenes and keeping the pace and action high.

Again, compare the LotR novels to the movies. You're simply not going to get the same details. While I listened to HK-47 explain in great detail how he kills Jedi, it's not a pertinent point to the plot. Yes, omit it and RPG nerds may rage about plot holes but include it and 90% of players skip it and the completion rate on the game drops. Further, that's less time they can devote to other things.

And as far as the Shepard character development, it's obvious that he's deliberately kept a pretty blank slate with flat responses. Hawke in DA2 had much a stronger character but look how jarring the transitions between responses was. There is more to this than just writing a character; Bioware needs to look at how customers want to play that character.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Being the king in fable 3 was awesomeness.

[Whatever42]

Nashiktal wrote...

I agree with you for the most part. Bioware does a great job with immersion, which is why ME2 confuses me all the more. ME2 just shift gears in such a way that can sometimes be immersion breaking.

Like that shuttle ride to nowhere. When I did legions quest, I did it last. So my team had nowhere to go, nothing to do. No quests to undertake... Just loading up all twelve squadmates, some pretty big I might add, into that tiny shuttle and off into space. Then that human reaper... That was... Different. Then the death and resurection, not so much the death itself, but how it was handled.

I just wonder why. Was it because Drew left and Mac had to pick up the slack so suddenly? Were the writing teams not communicating enough? (That happened in ME1 as well) What was the problem, and how can it be fixed? How can it be avoided in the future?

That was a bad scene, no doubt. They should have found a more convincing reason to get the crew off the Normandy but I can understand why it would have been difficult. Almost anything I can think of would have still been artifical. As I've said earlier, they should have just hung a lantern on it to say "yah, we know this is just a silly plot device, sorry" and moved on. But regardless, I don't think that happens often in ME2. In fact, I really can't think of anything that bad in the rest of the game.

[Sgt Stryker]

100k wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Whatever faults with the ME universe, ME1 and ME2, they are very immersive. It is the only reason I play those games. A significant majority of game plots I get a taste of don't give me anywhere near the same immersion, interest, or in-character choice.

I agree with you for the most part. Bioware does a great job with immersion, which is why ME2 confuses me all the more. ME2 just shift gears in such a way that can sometimes be immersion breaking.

Like that shuttle ride to nowhere. When I did legions quest, I did it last. So my team had nowhere to go, nothing to do. No quests to undertake... Just loading up all twelve squadmates, some pretty big I might add, into that tiny shuttle and off into space. Then that human reaper... That was... Different. Then the death and resurection, not so much the death itself, but how it was handled.

I just wonder why. Was it because Drew left and Mac had to pick up the slack so suddenly? Were the writing teams not communicating enough? (That happened in ME1 as well) What was the problem, and how can it be fixed? How can it be avoided in the future?

It was probably EA. They really want to get their big titles out as soon as possible. If your producer tells you to jump, you don't ask how high. You jump.

If that's true, then that makes their decision to delay ME3 all the more bizarre. Although, they could have decided that it was best not to compete with other big titles coming out in November/December 2011.

[Nashiktal]

If it was EA in ME2, I am hoping they realized their mistake in rushing products (ME2 and DA2) and decided to let Bioware push it back somewhat.

Of course that is assuming it is EA.

[100k]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

100k wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Whatever faults with the ME universe, ME1 and ME2, they are very immersive. It is the only reason I play those games. A significant majority of game plots I get a taste of don't give me anywhere near the same immersion, interest, or in-character choice.

I agree with you for the most part. Bioware does a great job with immersion, which is why ME2 confuses me all the more. ME2 just shift gears in such a way that can sometimes be immersion breaking.

Like that shuttle ride to nowhere. When I did legions quest, I did it last. So my team had nowhere to go, nothing to do. No quests to undertake... Just loading up all twelve squadmates, some pretty big I might add, into that tiny shuttle and off into space. Then that human reaper... That was... Different. Then the death and resurection, not so much the death itself, but how it was handled.

I just wonder why. Was it because Drew left and Mac had to pick up the slack so suddenly? Were the writing teams not communicating enough? (That happened in ME1 as well) What was the problem, and how can it be fixed? How can it be avoided in the future?

It was probably EA. They really want to get their big titles out as soon as possible. If your producer tells you to jump, you don't ask how high. You jump.

If that's true, then that makes their decision to delay ME3 all the more bizarre. Although, they could have decided that it was best not to compete with other big titles coming out in November/December 2011.

I'm guessing that's what it was. Going up against U3, Gears 3, Revelations, BF3, and WM3 is a tough position. 

[Nashiktal]

Thats true as well, a lot of big players this holiday.

[100k]

Nashiktal wrote...

Thats true as well, a lot of big players this holiday.

And this holiday in particular. I don't think there's ever been a better looking winter for gaming.
:happy:

[111987]

100k wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

100k wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Whatever faults with the ME universe, ME1 and ME2, they are very immersive. It is the only reason I play those games. A significant majority of game plots I get a taste of don't give me anywhere near the same immersion, interest, or in-character choice.

I agree with you for the most part. Bioware does a great job with immersion, which is why ME2 confuses me all the more. ME2 just shift gears in such a way that can sometimes be immersion breaking.

Like that shuttle ride to nowhere. When I did legions quest, I did it last. So my team had nowhere to go, nothing to do. No quests to undertake... Just loading up all twelve squadmates, some pretty big I might add, into that tiny shuttle and off into space. Then that human reaper... That was... Different. Then the death and resurection, not so much the death itself, but how it was handled.

I just wonder why. Was it because Drew left and Mac had to pick up the slack so suddenly? Were the writing teams not communicating enough? (That happened in ME1 as well) What was the problem, and how can it be fixed? How can it be avoided in the future?

It was probably EA. They really want to get their big titles out as soon as possible. If your producer tells you to jump, you don't ask how high. You jump.

If that's true, then that makes their decision to delay ME3 all the more bizarre. Although, they could have decided that it was best not to compete with other big titles coming out in November/December 2011.

I'm guessing that's what it was. Going up against U3, Gears 3, Revelations, BF3, and WM3 is a tough position. 

Don't forget Halo: CE Anniversary. And to a lesser extent, Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.

[Savber100]

Nashiktal wrote...

If it was EA in ME2, I am hoping they realized their mistake in rushing products (ME2 and DA2) and decided to let Bioware push it back somewhat.

Of course that is assuming it is EA.

*glances at ME2*

I understand DA2 but ME2? I understand that some people dislike the DIRECTION of the franchise and they were some lazy writing here and there but I don't see how ME2 was necessarily rushed. 

If so, then ME2 was damn impressive for rushed game... 

Modifié par Savber100, 05 septembre 2011 - 12:56 .

[100k]

Savber100 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

If it was EA in ME2, I am hoping they realized their mistake in rushing products (ME2 and DA2) and decided to let Bioware push it back somewhat.

Of course that is assuming it is EA.

*glances at ME2*

I understand DA2 but ME2? I understand that some people dislike the DIRECTION of the franchise and they were some lazy writing here and there but I don't see how ME2 was necessarily rushed. 

If so, then ME2 was damn impressive for rushed game... 

Hey, I agree 100%. Its damned impressive for what it had. But if it had had an extra six months...

*evil laugh*

[Nashiktal]

ME2 was rushed. However the team that handled ME2 did an excellent job of hiding it. Behind the glitches, the shared animations and body models, low amount of squad interactions (which I blame on the budget being used to hire celebrities as well as time constraints), the main plot is bare bones tied together by multiple side missions.

I am not sure whether to count recruitment missions as a main plot, outside of Mordin at least.

I absolutely enjoyed ME2, but I enjoyed DA2 as well. Both games needed more time, and perhaps in ME2's case a bigger budget (or less celebrities)

[Whatever42]

Every game has a budget and deadline. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a game of decent length that doesn't reuse models or have some bad quests.

The lacklustre main missions in ME2 has nothing to do with budget. That's simply the writers. It was a middle chapter and they decided that the main mission wasn't the central focus - such as with the seven samuri or dirty dozen. That's legitimate, imo. However, they still could have done more with the main missions and I don't blame that on EA.

[100k]

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

100k wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Whatever faults with the ME universe, ME1 and ME2, they are very immersive. It is the only reason I play those games. A significant majority of game plots I get a taste of don't give me anywhere near the same immersion, interest, or in-character choice.

I agree with you for the most part. Bioware does a great job with immersion, which is why ME2 confuses me all the more. ME2 just shift gears in such a way that can sometimes be immersion breaking.

Like that shuttle ride to nowhere. When I did legions quest, I did it last. So my team had nowhere to go, nothing to do. No quests to undertake... Just loading up all twelve squadmates, some pretty big I might add, into that tiny shuttle and off into space. Then that human reaper... That was... Different. Then the death and resurection, not so much the death itself, but how it was handled.

I just wonder why. Was it because Drew left and Mac had to pick up the slack so suddenly? Were the writing teams not communicating enough? (That happened in ME1 as well) What was the problem, and how can it be fixed? How can it be avoided in the future?

It was probably EA. They really want to get their big titles out as soon as possible. If your producer tells you to jump, you don't ask how high. You jump.

If that's true, then that makes their decision to delay ME3 all the more bizarre. Although, they could have decided that it was best not to compete with other big titles coming out in November/December 2011.

I'm guessing that's what it was. Going up against U3, Gears 3, Revelations, BF3, and WM3 is a tough position. 

Don't forget Halo: CE Anniversary. And to a lesser extent, Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.

Oh yeah -- that'll be huge as well. Also Resistence 3. There are a lot of trilogy-closers coming out this year.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

2011 is the year of the trilogy.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nashiktal wrote...

Because despite what you think of the man himself, the points he raises are valid critiques. You are dismissing his critiques because you don't like the man, so why are you trying to be a part of this discussion?

If you don't like him, fine we are not forcing you to talk about him, but we will discuss the flaws of Mass Effect 2 so that Bioware can improve for the next game and beyond.

Thing is, for every valid point Smuddy has, he has ten that are based on half the facts, blatant misunderstanding, and deliberate ignorance of anything that runs counter to his opinion.  He gets half of something, works up a quick and negative commentary, and runs with it to the bitter end, no matter what factual counterpoint someone might present.   He hides the weakness of his arguements with arrogance, condescension, and postmodernist lit-crit word avalanches.