6494 réponses à ce sujet

[The Interloper]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

My argument was not only completely hand-waved, but done so in a condescending way. People keep saying that he makes good points despite the way he presents them. It is true that the points are valid or not regardless of the presentation, but that does not mean presentation is irrelevant. When trying to convince someone of your views, HOW you present them is just as important as what you present.

Due, you do that ALL THE TIME.
You accuse him of being mean and condesending and you're doign the exact same thing. And do a far worse job of hiding it b.t.w.

Sentances like "his arguments make as much sense as a manatie attempting to ski" ... you throw cheap insults at him constantly and come off far more emoptional.

No offense, but if we're talking about presentation, he wins by a Everest avalanche.

Whenever Squee insulted Smudboy, he often promptly backtracked and clarified that his disagreement is no reflection on Smudboy's general intelligence and personality. In fact, he complemented him several times. He repeatedly said that his only problem with smudboy was his arguements.

From what I saw, Smudboy just said that Squees' disagreement with him proves he's an idiot.

When Squee sort of agrees with Smudboy, he says something like "I don't agree with you, but I can see why you'd think that way and I have no probems with your arguement" or something like that.

When Smudboy agrees with Squee, he sarcastically says something like "my, an intelligent point. How unexpected, considering the rest of the drivel you've been spouting."

Smudboy is simply more patronizing, condescending, and all out rude. His veneer of cultured discussion just exacerbates the patronization. Squee at least pretends to respect his opponent. Smudboy just spits on him.

But yeah, Squee's constant stuttering didn't help his argument any.

Nashiktal wrote...

Detailed exposition? No. But it feels rather pointless to throw a traitor in their without knowing why he turned traitor. If not knowing why, then who he worked for. If not who he worked for, than at least why he wanted to kill shep, you know they guy he worked two years and twelve days to patch together.

It just feels silly, if they wanted to make miranda feel ruthless they could have done so with far less work.

We know enough. We know it was for money. What more do we need?

I'm not saying it would have hurt to explore more, but it still works as it is. Wilson is a slimy bald guy who sells you out. He's a minor character who exists just to give the opening a sense of danger and uncertainty and to put the resurrection thing behind you (almost everyone and everything involved is destroyed). Further exploration isn't needed. Again, not saying it would have hurt, but the whole thing Smudboy complains about is that these small gaps aren't just missed opportunities, but actually break the story. In short, that they're mandatory. They aren't, and they don't. It works just fine without taking time to explore Wilson's psychology and childhood or something. The hints we get are enough.

Modifié par The Interloper, 05 septembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[Nashiktal]

We know it was for money? Really? we get one audio log that even mentions money and thats it. Its only until after the DLC comes out that we lean anything, and that was MONTHS after the game was released. Apparently it was important enough to warrant a short message in the DLC to explain it, so why wasn't something so simple just clarified in the first place? They already have audio logs out there, why can't miranda show up finding it, or why can't wilson explain why before being killed by miranda?

We know NOW, but we didn't know when the game was released.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 05 septembre 2011 - 04:47 .

[The Interloper]

Someone With Mass wrote...
So much for security if ONE guy can reprogram hundreds of mechs by himself.

He's a high ranking officer and he had years to get to know the system. It's a bit of a stretch to expect a bio engineer to be an expert hacker, but Miranda is too. It's a stretch, but hardly a plothole. Maybe his employer gave him hacking equipment and he just deployed it.

Nashiktal wrote...
We know it was for money? Really? we get one audio log that even mentions money and thats it. Its only until after the DLC comes out that we lean anything, and that was MONTHS after the game was released. Apparently it was important enough to warrant a DLC to explain it, so why wasn't something so simple just clarified in the first place? They already have audio logs out there, why can't miranda show up finding it, or why can't wilson explain why before being killed by miranda?
We know NOW, but we didn't know when the game was released.

Use your head. The hint we get mentions money. I'm pretty sure that wasn't an accident. Do you really need to have things spelled out for you? Is Wilson really worth it?

Again, half of the complaints here and by Smudboy are about minor plot details that weren't clarified. Is the fact they weren't clarified a bit sloppy? Yes. Does it break the plot? No. Because they're minor.  Smudboy likes to rage about how if it isn't said it isn't part of the story and therefore a failure in storytelling. This is technically true. But petty errors really break the plot? Do we really need to know every single thing? 

Generally, no, because it isn't important. It's a flaw, but a minor one. A good story does not require perfection. It would be nice, but that's not the point. The argument  that started this thread in the first place is that the lack of things like perfect lore continuity ruins the story. It. Does. Not.

You want to know what a failure in storytelling is? Fear 3. Two of the four major plot factions and one of the two main series villians disappear from the plot without any explanation. We can make up explanations why, but that defeats the point. These things are important plot details, the story is in large part about them, and we really need to know what happened to them. We can't fill in the gaps ourselves. There are too many unknowns.

This is different. We don't need to know exactly why Wilson betrayed cerberus (and we already know something), or all the scientific details on how shepard was revived, or exactly how his body didn't disintigrate, or why the human paste is yellow but is said to be grey, or all the biotic workings that cause Jacob to fail as a biotic specialist. It's a bit careless but it's not vital. The fact that as you said the Wilson thing (and most of the other complaints) are so easily fixed by as little as one added line of dialogue proves that. I'm not saying Me's plot doesn't have issues, but for the most part (I wont say everything) they're inconsequential and not worth the length of the posts I'm making here.

One more time-ME has rough edges at points. I will not argue against that. But it works. Smudboy insists that the rough edges prevent it from being of any redeeming value or "garbage", and I cannot disagree more strongly.

Modifié par The Interloper, 05 septembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[Whatever42]

Nashiktal wrote...

We know it was for money? Really? we get one audio log that even mentions money and thats it. Its only until after the DLC comes out that we lean anything, and that was MONTHS after the game was released. Apparently it was important enough to warrant a short message in the DLC to explain it, so why wasn't something so simple just clarified in the first place? They already have audio logs out there, why can't miranda show up finding it, or why can't wilson explain why before being killed by miranda?

We know NOW, but we didn't know when the game was released.

We get an audio log that mentions money. We get another that mentions lack of respect. We also get to experience Wilson's character when we speak with him and he's a shifty sort.

Again, why does Wilson HAVE to be important to the main story. Cerberus has a long history of shifty people doing stupid things. I think we're all intelligent enough to understand Wilson and his motivations. They don't need to be laid out in crayon for us.

ME2 paces like a movie, not a game of thrones novel. Exploring and exploiting every possible facet of human motivation and making it deeply relevant to the plot is not in the cards. It's not imperfection, its a deliberate choice and a good one.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 05 septembre 2011 - 05:19 .

[Xeranx]

The Interloper wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

My argument was not only completely hand-waved, but done so in a condescending way. People keep saying that he makes good points despite the way he presents them. It is true that the points are valid or not regardless of the presentation, but that does not mean presentation is irrelevant. When trying to convince someone of your views, HOW you present them is just as important as what you present.

Due, you do that ALL THE TIME.
You accuse him of being mean and condesending and you're doign the exact same thing. And do a far worse job of hiding it b.t.w.

Sentances like "his arguments make as much sense as a manatie attempting to ski" ... you throw cheap insults at him constantly and come off far more emoptional.

No offense, but if we're talking about presentation, he wins by a Everest avalanche.

Whenever Squee insulted Smudboy, he often promptly backtracked and clarified that his disagreement is no reflection on Smudboy's general intelligence and personality. In fact, he complemented him several times. He repeatedly said that his only problem with smudboy was his arguements.

From what I saw, Smudboy just said that Squees' disagreement with him proves he's an idiot.

When Squee sort of agrees with Smudboy, he says something like "I don't agree with you, but I can see why you'd think that way and I have no probems with your arguement" or something like that.

When Smudboy agrees with Squee, he sarcastically says something like "my, an intelligent point. How unexpected, considering the rest of the drivel you've been spouting."

Smudboy is simply more patronizing, condescending, and all out rude. His veneer of cultured discussion just exacerbates the patronization. Squee at least pretends to respect his opponent. Smudboy just spits on him.

But yeah, Squee's constant stuttering didn't help his argument any.

Lmao.  If you, who agrees with Squee (allegedly), can come out and state that Squee pretends to respect his opponent...you don't think said opponent might realize that pretense himself and decide not to hold back?  

This goes back to my point on how Smud will hold the grudge and will dish back at you later...if not in the same place the discussion originated.  Smud has had genial discussions before.

Not making a comment on Squee as I didn't watch his responses and I haven't watched Smud's response to Squee either - except for one vid since someone posted it in this thread to make a point...that I don't remember.

I think I would prefer someone who doesn't like me to speak plain rather than use double speak.  Saying something akin to, "the mere mention of such an idea is stupid, but that's not a reflection on you" is an insult no matter how you slice it.  That last bit is the bridge being formed to the person that is being met with disagreement.  That bit says "I'm calling you stupid, digging it in, but telling everyone else that I'm not".  I'd rather someone just say, "the mere mention of such an idea is stupid".  At that point clarification could be asked, but any level-headed individual or hot-headed individual who is looking for meaning in the words will ask, "what about the idea is stupid"?  They can feel like they were personally insulted and they might have been, but they have no grounds to be the agressor.  Too many times I've seen people allege that someone insulted them and I have pointed out that it wasn't the case.

[Someone With Mass]

The Interloper wrote...
He's a high ranking officer and he had years to get to know the system. It's a bit of a stretch to expect a bio engineer to be an expert hacker, but Miranda is too. It's a stretch, but hardly a plothole. Maybe his employer gave him hacking equipment and he just deployed it.

Still. One guy shouldn't be able to do that, regardless of his leet haxxor skills.

I'm willing to write that off as Cerberus being incompetent as usual when it comes to security, though.

[Dexi]

Smud's an ass. Squee's a good chap.

Smud doesn't appear half as smart as he thinks he is to me.

[Xeranx]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

We know it was for money? Really? we get one audio log that even mentions money and thats it. Its only until after the DLC comes out that we lean anything, and that was MONTHS after the game was released. Apparently it was important enough to warrant a short message in the DLC to explain it, so why wasn't something so simple just clarified in the first place? They already have audio logs out there, why can't miranda show up finding it, or why can't wilson explain why before being killed by miranda?

We know NOW, but we didn't know when the game was released.

We get an audio log that mentions money. We get another that mentions lack of respect. We also get to experience Wilson's character when we speak with him and he's a shifty sort.

Again, why does Wilson HAVE to be important to the main story. Cerberus has a long history of shifty people doing stupid things. I think we're all intelligent enough to understand Wilson and his motivations. They don't need to be laid out in crayon for us.

ME2 paces like a movie, not a game of thrones novel. Exploring and exploiting every possible facet of human motivation and making it deeply relevant to the plot is not in the cards. It's not imperfection, its a deliberate choice and a good one.

Wilson has to be important because Miranda makes him important.  In killing him we get the reason to ask 'why'.  Before the event we learn that we're on a Cerberus station.  For those who went through ME and took down Cerberus experiments and/or have the Sole Survivor background (especially with having the Sole Survivor background) anything that happens or is said can be analyzed.  

Before the LOTSB dlc I imagined Wilson could have been an Alliance plant.  A gifted doctor who happened to do the impossible with a number of scientists in the background.  It explained how Anderson was able to send me an email on the SR2 since I hadn't seen him yet.  But that was tossed and left me wondering how Anderson was able to contact me then.  I mean, do I call that a plot-hole?

[Killjoy Cutter]

The first time I read one of Smugboy's posts, my thought was "Wow, what a pompous, condescending jackwagon."


It wasn't directed at me, it wasn't in response to anyone, it was just more of his general comments on Bioware, and on anyone who disagrees with him.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 05 septembre 2011 - 05:33 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The Interloper wrote...
He's a high ranking officer and he had years to get to know the system. It's a bit of a stretch to expect a bio engineer to be an expert hacker, but Miranda is too. It's a stretch, but hardly a plothole. Maybe his employer gave him hacking equipment and he just deployed it.

Still. One guy shouldn't be able to do that, regardless of his leet haxxor skills.

I'm willing to write that off as Cerberus being incompetent as usual when it comes to security, though.

Why not? We know that LOKI mechs have friend-or-foe algorithms that are used to tell the difference between authorized and unauthorized personnel. We know that in one of the sidequests, we encounter LOKI mechs with defective IFF programs that make them go berserk and shoot everything. We also know that Wilson was messing around in the network control room.

So, the logical conclusion is that Wilson somehow used the control room to disable the mechs' IFF algorithms all at once, effectively making them flag any living being they saw as an armed hostile. I highly doubt Wilson went to each and every mech in person and hacked it by hand.

Oh, and before someone mentions that I'm "making things up" again and "conjecture is bad" and "this should have been explicitly mentioned in the narrative" (you know who you are...).  No. We did not need to see Wilson doing this, in order to infer that he did. Going back to A New Hope, we never see the stormtroopers shoot up Owen & Beru's homestead. However, based on what we do see (burnt corpses, a similar attack on the Jawa sandcrawler, Obi-Wan's comments at that sandcrawler) we can infer that the Empire was responsible.

[Someone With Mass]

One would think that the security station which controls every single mech on the station would be a little more protected than that, though.

I would've at least put some security messures that makes it so two individuals with the right clearance are required to tamper with the mechs.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 05 septembre 2011 - 05:46 .

[Whatever42]

Xeranx wrote...

Wilson has to be important because Miranda makes him important.  In killing him we get the reason to ask 'why'.  Before the event we learn that we're on a Cerberus station.  For those who went through ME and took down Cerberus experiments and/or have the Sole Survivor background (especially with having the Sole Survivor background) anything that happens or is said can be analyzed.  

Before the LOTSB dlc I imagined Wilson could have been an Alliance plant.  A gifted doctor who happened to do the impossible with a number of scientists in the background.  It explained how Anderson was able to send me an email on the SR2 since I hadn't seen him yet.  But that was tossed and left me wondering how Anderson was able to contact me then.  I mean, do I call that a plot-hole?

Miranda never makes him important. Wilson was used as a foil so we could see Miranda's character in action. Miranda was important, not Wilson. 

I appreciate that you would have liked to know more about Wilson but we could do that endlessly with minor characters throughout fiction. You may imagine an elaborate back-story for them and wish that the writers shared your vision but they didn't. That's not a failing, its simply that they're writing a different story than you personally would write. That's why so many people enjoy writing their own stories.

And Shepard probably just accessed his G-Mail account from the Normandy. It seems pretty clear that Cerberus picks up the messages and delivers them, to avoid any tracing, but its a pretty simple thing.

[Sgt Stryker]

Good point. Then again, you said it yourself. The words Cerberus and security should not be uttered in the same breath.

[Whatever42]

Someone With Mass wrote...

One would think that the security station which controls every single mech on the station would be a little more protected than that, though.

I would've at least put some security messures that makes it so two individuals with the right clearance are required to tamper with the mechs.

This is the same Cerberus that gave us the husk debacles and the overlord debacle and the Pragia debacle. Cerberus is reckless. 

I doubt it was just as simple as accessing a control station, however. It was likely a virus of some sort. Look what happened later in the game, when that virus infected all the mechs. Maybe they're even related.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Cerberus is very good at keeping TIM safe...not much else though.

[Fixers0]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The first time I read one of Smugboy's posts, my thought was "Wow, what a pompous, condescending jackwagon."


It wasn't directed at me, it wasn't in response to anyone, it was just more of his general comments on Bioware, and on anyone who disagrees with him.

And yet you never appearantly succeed into countering the points he brings up in his videos. 

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The first time I read one of Smugboy's posts, my thought was "Wow, what a pompous, condescending jackwagon."


It wasn't directed at me, it wasn't in response to anyone, it was just more of his general comments on Bioware, and on anyone who disagrees with him.

And yet you never appearantly succeed into countering the points he brings up in his videos. 

Do you just show up when someone says something that you can respond to with "Ha [insert messiah] is so much cooler then u!" ?

[Fixers0]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Do you just show up when someone says something that you can respond to with "Ha [insert messiah] is so much cooler then u!" ?

I don't, Do you?

[Nashiktal]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Cerberus is very good at keeping TIM safe...not much else though.

I always imagined that TIM's "hidden stronghold" i actually a bubble to keep him from hurting himself.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Nashiktal wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Cerberus is very good at keeping TIM safe...not much else though.

I always imagined that TIM's "hidden stronghold" is actually a bubble to keep him from hurting himself.

Maybe he smokes cigarettes with no chemicals,to keep himself from getting indoctrinated,that lady that hands him the datapad is just his nurse, it's just one childproof bunker in space.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 05 septembre 2011 - 06:09 .

[Nashiktal]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Cerberus is very good at keeping TIM safe...not much else though.

I always imagined that TIM's "hidden stronghold" is actually a bubble to keep him from hurting himself.

Maybe he smokes cigarettes with no chemicals,to keep himself from getting indoctrinated,that lady that hands him the datapad is just his nurse, it's just one childproof bunker in space.

Wait... So mass effect is all a dream on one guy in rehab? Who knew?

[Xeranx]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Wilson has to be important because Miranda makes him important.  In killing him we get the reason to ask 'why'.  Before the event we learn that we're on a Cerberus station.  For those who went through ME and took down Cerberus experiments and/or have the Sole Survivor background (especially with having the Sole Survivor background) anything that happens or is said can be analyzed.  

Before the LOTSB dlc I imagined Wilson could have been an Alliance plant.  A gifted doctor who happened to do the impossible with a number of scientists in the background.  It explained how Anderson was able to send me an email on the SR2 since I hadn't seen him yet.  But that was tossed and left me wondering how Anderson was able to contact me then.  I mean, do I call that a plot-hole?

Miranda never makes him important. Wilson was used as a foil so we could see Miranda's character in action. Miranda was important, not Wilson. 

I appreciate that you would have liked to know more about Wilson but we could do that endlessly with minor characters throughout fiction. You may imagine an elaborate back-story for them and wish that the writers shared your vision but they didn't. That's not a failing, its simply that they're writing a different story than you personally would write. That's why so many people enjoy writing their own stories.

And Shepard probably just accessed his G-Mail account from the Normandy. It seems pretty clear that Cerberus picks up the messages and delivers them, to avoid any tracing, but its a pretty simple thing.

In hindsight, maybe.  In that moment?  No.

I already pointed out that Shepard finds out that he's on a Cerberus station prior to that encounter.  Any Shepard that tracked down Kahoku's body (especially a Sole Survivor) would be very wary of being within the grasp of such an organization.  Miranda, being one of two people Shepard saw when they woke up, killing Wilson and giving a response that she gave can't be taken with any surety.  This is because Miranda is a Cerberus operative herself.  For some Shepards, her words on Wilson are veritably coming from the beast's own mouth.  

Maybe I can ask this question: If a demon killed another demon that was helping me out do I take the first demon at their word after they kill the second?  Why?

[Iakus]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Good point. Then again, you said it yourself. The words Cerberus and security should not be uttered in the same breath.

This is true.

Cerberus probably loses three operatives each morning just getting the coffee made.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Fixers0 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The first time I read one of Smugboy's posts, my thought was "Wow, what a pompous, condescending jackwagon."


It wasn't directed at me, it wasn't in response to anyone, it was just more of his general comments on Bioware, and on anyone who disagrees with him.

And yet you never appearantly succeed into countering the points he brings up in his videos. 

Snide, snickering, half-true, and largely not-funny comedy, and pompous, hollow, postmodernist lit-crit, don't necessitate "countering". 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 05 septembre 2011 - 07:03 .

[tonnactus]

dreman9999 wrote...

]Which is the problem wit DA2<_<...

But Dragon Age II not only had squad banter,but also squad interaction where for example merill and isabella played cars in the hanged man...

Wonder if this was planed to be in the first game:


http://www.creativeu...umbs/gth-me.jpg

Modifié par tonnactus, 05 septembre 2011 - 07:09 .