6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Notlikeyoucare]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

We don't know that until we go through. That's the whole point. We made no attempt to gain any knowledge before we started recruiting which is where the conflict comes from, and its what makes the SM contrived.

Okay. Tell me. What use would they have of wasting the resources to not only build a planet, but to also clone millions of Collectors, when they're not even trying to hit anything by force?

WHo says they need a planet? They might have fleet, they might have multiple bases, or Harbinger could be waiting We don't know what is in there until we go through, this has nothing to do with the feesablility of a planet possibly existing. How would you know what would and wouldn't be a waste of resources for god knows how many Collectors.

You don't know any of that until your finished, which is what makes it contrived.

We succeed for no other reason than that the plot demands it, which is the problem.

[100k]

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

And back further to 'an artificial construct like a dyson sphere or reaper construction can exist in to most hostile galactic environments, so it's probable that they could create an artificial home world equivalent'.

Which is a). a huge waste of resources and . pointless because we know there aren't enough Collectors to warrant such a structure.

I didn't realize you knew so much about the Collector population (before you saw their home world), Reaper intentions, and technological limits that come with evalutating a race that is at least 40 millions years old.

Please, tell me more.

[Someone With Mass]

Sgt Stryker wrote...
Besides, there is no indication that the Collector cruiser was waiting back at base when the Normandy activated the IFF. Of course, this brings up another question: how is the IFF able to send signals at FTL speeds?

That quantum technology thing, or something like it, perhaps?

If Harbinger can control his minios from dark space, I'd imagine that they're using the same tech to contact each other. 

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

111987 wrote...

So now the Bioware writers didn't invest any thought or feelings into their writing? Good lord, how am I supposed to debate people when THAT is really their argument?

There are INSTANCES of bad/lazy writing. Every writer in the history of the world has had these instances; it's part of being a flawed human. Charcterizing the writers themselves, in their entirety, as lazy is just crazy.

Instances?

The plot of the game is lazy writing, to the point where the plot only makes sense if you observe it in backwards fashion.

The collectors have a base we can blow up using a small team of specialists, Good thing we had the foresight to assemble a team even though we didn't know what waited beyond the Omega 4 relay.

I'm going on a quest to assemble a team of specialists so i can blow up that base i don't know about yet but will be there.

I'm the illusive man I'm gonna spend billions reviving Shepard and countless millions on constructing the SR2 so he/she can find a small team of specialists though the Omega 4 relay and blow of the base we have no idea exist yet.

Alright I'll admit it doesn't make that much sense in reverse but it still makes a whole lot of more sense than going forwards... let's try.

Hi I'm the illusive man : "Humanity is in peril, countless colonies have just dissapeared so I'm gonna revive a dead hero".
Servant : "Ehh mr illusive can i ask..why?"
Illusive man :" Ahem want?"
Servant :"Sure Shepard is a great hero and all that but why spend all these resources on reviving him/her.. i mean what does Shepard bring to the table?"
Illusive man "Well Shepard destroyed a reaper and.."
Servant "And?"
Illusive man : "hmmm shut up okay?... now moving on".
Servant :"okay".
Illusive man :" Now after reviving Shepard I'm gonna send him on a quest to find a bunch of specialists".
Servant :"Okay.. ehh why?".
Illusive man :"Why what?".
Servant :"How will a group of specialists help you discover why the collectors are attacking colonies.. you know satellites and probes are very effective on gathering such information?"
Illusive man :"I don't know.. just because."
Servant :"Okay".
Illusive man : "And then.. get this I'm gonna send Shepard into a trap on a stranded collector ship!"
Servant :"Ohh how dastardly of you sir... why?"
Illusive man :"I like toying around with my investments.. that's what got me so far".
Servant :"I see..."
Illusive man :" And then I'm gonna send Shepard to a 37 million years old reaper so he/she can fetch a Mcguffin that will allow access to the galactic core where they will find a base Shepard can infiltrate and blow up using his/her bunch of specialists that i had the foresight to put him/her on a quest to pick up even though i don't at this moment have any idea what will happen.. it's just screwy like that".
Servant : "Ehh okay i see". 

That the thing. Every thing was not made to stop the collectors. It was to stop who ever the current reaper agent is, as the reapers are know to use agents to push their agendas if they are too far to do it themselves or can't get to certin places.TIM did not now about the collectors involvement until after freedom's progress. An after that the plan was started to be put to gether. I say this because TIM did not even give us a full list of recuits ontill after horizion. So, no plan was fully grounded untill after the collector ship. Between the begining and end of the game, the cast was just figuring out how to do the mission and putting the most flexible team they can with out using the bast of humanity outside of Shepard, Miranda, and Jacob. Once they did the collector ship mission, then they got all the data they need because EDi hack the collector ship data and got the info the cast needed.

The proble with smudboy analysis is that he thinks that Shepard was resuractied  because of the collectors, He was reserected because a reaper agent was know to be in use and to stop the reapers in general. The plan to take them down was not finished untill they did the collector ship mission, it was not fully assabled at the begining of the game, hence the fact we started with 4 people to get.

[Fixers0]

Someone With Mass wrote...
I like to think they didn't flat out tell you that because they had the courtesy to assume that the players have half of a brain and can think for themselves.

Well, that your thinking,

But the more i think about it the less sense it makes,(essence of a species?) and if you are implying that i can ask question about the narative for some unknow reason, while that's your problem

Someone With Mass wrote...
It's not that hard to figure that out on your own if the game says: "The Reaper is made out of both mechanical and organic parts."

And that's just baby arnold, who is feeded organic slush that goes nowere.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The strange thing is that real-life IFF systems reply when interrogated by an outside source that has the appropriate frequency and encoding, with the appropriate response frequency and encoding. They don't just broadcast continuously. IFF stands for "identify friend / foe", and tells the interogating system that the responding system is a friendly, in order to reduce friendly-fire incidents. An IFF is not a targeting system. The IFF in question in ME2 tells the mass relay to activate a more accurate protocol.

Besides that, I don't see any unaddressable issues with the IFF itself. It's been dormant in the corpse of the Reaper in the brown dwarf, so it wasn't broadcasting or detected. The broadcast feature once it's active could simply be a failsafe if the IFF determines that it's connected to a system that's not a Reaper or Reaper ally. Same with the attack on the Normandy's systems.

It's just the "field trip in the shuttle" that's utterly contrived.

[100k]

111987 wrote...
Sure, we didn't know the Collector's were in the galactic core until midway through the game, but we knew there weren't millions of them, else their attacks would have been much larger and widespread.

No. NO! 

You DON'T know this until you go through the relay. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. THIS.

What if the Reapers were cloning trillions of Collectors to act as their husk force for their Cycle War? What if they needed a handful of worlds to clone this vast population? 

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Reaper IFF is a signal. Only the Reapers and the Collector ships have this signal. Since there are no Reapers in the galaxy, when the Collectors detect this signal, don't you think they'd investigate?

The Collectors being able to pick up and track their creators' signals is apparently a plothole in itself.

The brown star block the signal.......When it was hooked up to the normady, the signal was amptified. The reapers used it as a back door into the normady, hacked it and sent the collectors at them.

As I said earlier, based on that logic, the Collectors can't recieve any signals being surrounded by exploding stars. Which defeats the purpose of anything with an IFF going through.

The diferance is that they are not inbeded in a star , half star, or exploding star. If you recall, they collector base is in a claim area of the center. Thr reaper ship is inside a brown star. Big differance.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Reaper IFF is a signal. Only the Reapers and the Collector ships have this signal. Since there are no Reapers in the galaxy, when the Collectors detect this signal, don't you think they'd investigate?

The Collectors being able to pick up and track their creators' signals is apparently a plothole in itself.

The brown star block the signal.......When it was hooked up to the normady, the signal was amptified. The reapers used it as a back door into the normady, hacked it and sent the collectors at them.

As I said earlier, based on that logic, the Collectors can't recieve any signals being surrounded by exploding stars. Which defeats the purpose of anything with an IFF going through.

Not necessarily. If I'm standing in a skyscraper and have no cellphone reception, does that mean that I won't get any reception standing out in the street, surrounded by dozens of skyscrapers?

Besides, there is no indication that the Collector cruiser was waiting back at base when the Normandy activated the IFF. Of course, this brings up another question: how is the IFF able to send signals at FTL speeds?

See this is the problem, the writers gave us no explanation, so any attempt to explain it out ourselves causes more and more problems.

[111987]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

And back further to 'an artificial construct like a dyson sphere or reaper construction can exist in to most hostile galactic environments, so it's probable that they could create an artificial home world equivalent'.

Which is a). a huge waste of resources and . pointless because we know there aren't enough Collectors to warrant such a structure.

I didn't realize you knew so much about the Collector population (before you saw their home world), Reaper intentions, and technological limits that come with evalutating a race that is at least 40 millions years old.

Please, tell me more.

It's called reasoning. If there were millions of Collectors, they would have captured a lot more human colonies than they did. Same if there was some massive fleet.

ME2 was said to cannonically take 6 months. In that time, the Collectors hit Freedom's Progress, Ferris Fields, New Canton, and Horizon. If there were a planet's worth of Collectors, would they really only hit say, one target a month?

I seriously don't understand how you're not understanding this...

[Someone With Mass]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...
WHo says they need a planet? They might have fleet, they might have multiple bases, or Harbinger could be waiting We don't know what is in there until we go through, this has nothing to do with the feesablility of a planet possibly existing. How would you know what would and wouldn't be a waste of resources for god knows how many Collectors.

You don't know any of that until your finished, which is what makes it contrived.

We succeed for no other reason than that the plot demands it, which is the problem.

If they had a fleet, then they would've hit Earth a long time ago and not the outskirts of the Terminus System.

Harbinger can't be waiting, because he and the other Reapers are out in dark space in hibernation, and I like to think that a small strike force like the Collectors and their base is easier and faster to construct and run than an entire population center.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The "get four people" part was created by a limitation of the Xbox and having to change disks after a certain point in the game. If it were a PC-only game, everyone would have been recruitable from the start.

[111987]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
Sure, we didn't know the Collector's were in the galactic core until midway through the game, but we knew there weren't millions of them, else their attacks would have been much larger and widespread.

No. NO! 

You DON'T know this until you go through the relay. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. THIS.

What if the Reapers were cloning trillions of Collectors to act as their husk force for their Cycle War? What if they needed a handful of worlds to clone this vast population? 

...come on now. If there were trillions of Collectors, why wouldn't the Reapers just use them to harvest and enslave the galaxy for them? Why would the Reapers even bother coming themselves?

You're just being silly now.

[Whatever42]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
Sure, we didn't know the Collector's were in the galactic core until midway through the game, but we knew there weren't millions of them, else their attacks would have been much larger and widespread.

No. NO! 

You DON'T know this until you go through the relay. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. THIS.

What if the Reapers were cloning trillions of Collectors to act as their husk force for their Cycle War? What if they needed a handful of worlds to clone this vast population? 

Seems to have always been unlikely, considering the Reapers are powerful enough and can indoctrinate. But what if? Are you suggesting TIM wouldn't have wanted to send through scouts anyway?

[Killjoy Cutter]

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

And back further to 'an artificial construct like a dyson sphere or reaper construction can exist in to most hostile galactic environments, so it's probable that they could create an artificial home world equivalent'.

Which is a). a huge waste of resources and . pointless because we know there aren't enough Collectors to warrant such a structure.

I didn't realize you knew so much about the Collector population (before you saw their home world), Reaper intentions, and technological limits that come with evalutating a race that is at least 40 millions years old.

Please, tell me more.

It's called reasoning. If there were millions of Collectors, they would have captured a lot more human colonies than they did. Same if there was some massive fleet.

ME2 was said to cannonically take 6 months. In that time, the Collectors hit Freedom's Progress, Ferris Fields, New Canton, and Horizon. If there were a planet's worth of Collectors, would they really only hit say, one target a month?

I seriously don't understand how you're not understanding this...

Because if it's explainable and understandable, it's not a "flaw" in ME2 anymore, and they can't keep harping about it.   For too many of them, it's about finding fault, not figuring it out.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

111987 wrote...


It's called reasoning. If there were millions of Collectors, they would have captured a lot more human colonies than they did. Same if there was some massive fleet.

ME2 was said to cannonically take 6 months. In that time, the Collectors hit Freedom's Progress, Ferris Fields, New Canton, and Horizon. If there were a planet's worth of Collectors, would they really only hit say, one target a month?

I seriously don't understand how you're not understanding this...

To be fair the United States has a very large military,but we don't send the entire army out to snatch a couple of HVTs

[Killjoy Cutter]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
Sure, we didn't know the Collector's were in the galactic core until midway through the game, but we knew there weren't millions of them, else their attacks would have been much larger and widespread.

No. NO! 

You DON'T know this until you go through the relay. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. THIS.

What if the Reapers were cloning trillions of Collectors to act as their husk force for their Cycle War? What if they needed a handful of worlds to clone this vast population? 

Actually, once you know where the base is, you know it can only be so big.  It can't be on a planet, there are no planets where the base is. 

[Notlikeyoucare]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The strange thing is that real-life IFF systems reply when interrogated by an outside source that has the appropriate frequency and encoding, with the appropriate response frequency and encoding. They don't just broadcast continuously. IFF stands for "identify friend / foe", and tells the interogating system that the responding system is a friendly, in order to reduce friendly-fire incidents. An IFF is not a targeting system. The IFF in question in ME2 tells the mass relay to activate a more accurate protocol.

Besides that, I don't see any unaddressable issues with the IFF itself. It's been dormant in the corpse of the Reaper in the brown dwarf, so it wasn't broadcasting or detected. The broadcast feature once it's active could simply be a failsafe if the IFF determines that it's connected to a system that's not a Reaper or Reaper ally. Same with the attack on the Normandy's systems.

It's just the "field trip in the shuttle" that's utterly contrived.

Which is still strange that TIM would tell them to hook it up without warning them of the possibility and the characters not sure what an IFF does, would leave the crew if this is a possibility.

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Reaper IFF is a signal. Only the Reapers and the Collector ships have this signal. Since there are no Reapers in the galaxy, when the Collectors detect this signal, don't you think they'd investigate?

The Collectors being able to pick up and track their creators' signals is apparently a plothole in itself.

The brown star block the signal.......When it was hooked up to the normady, the signal was amptified. The reapers used it as a back door into the normady, hacked it and sent the collectors at them.

As I said earlier, based on that logic, the Collectors can't recieve any signals being surrounded by exploding stars. Which defeats the purpose of anything with an IFF going through.

The diferance is that they are not inbeded in a star , half star, or exploding star. If you recall, they collector base is in a claim area of the center. Thr reaper ship is inside a brown star. Big differance.

It doesn't even have to be that complicated. 

The IFF was in a dead Reaper -- it might not have been broadcasting at all. 

If it had been broadcasting, it would have been found by someone sometime in the 37 million years it sat there, most likely. 

Not that most IFFs broadcast continuously to begin with.

[Iakus]

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Clearafy, and saying everything is a plothole is missguided and lazy.

Both, consist out of the most convoluted logic, both of them should have been impossible to achieve, both resolve in the most  contrived unrealistic manner and lastly both relay on the power plot  to advance.

Those are the baselines
but feel free to watch it all here.

1 www.youtube.com/watch from about 03:00

I don't think even smudboy's saying the writers are lazy, just that the central narrative was badly done.  Check out around 5:15. ( I'll also quote for those who can't be bothered to watch the video itself:)

"Luckilly, as random and unexplainable in getting the soldiers is, getting the soldiers is really fun and the storytelling for them is good.  Side characters are all really cool, and although I can't say I understood them all, I really liked them.  They develop well.  Some have arcs.  In fact, some of them are the most fleshed out and believable side characters in video games.  And that's all really good stuff.  But they're in the wrong story.  They're completely useless to the main plot.  Sure we need them for the plot to continue but at that point we don't know why, except for Mordin.  His countermeasure is a plot device, which is fine.  But we've got eleven other guys. "

[Sgt Stryker]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ridiculously huge quote pyramid

That the thing. Every thing was not made to stop the collectors. It was to stop who ever the current reaper agent is, as the reapers are know to use agents to push their agendas if they are too far to do it themselves or can't get to certin places.TIM did not now about the collectors involvement until after freedom's progress. An after that the plan was started to be put to gether. I say this because TIM did not even give us a full list of recuits ontill after horizion. So, no plan was fully grounded untill after the collector ship. Between the begining and end of the game, the cast was just figuring out how to do the mission and putting the most flexible team they can with out using the bast of humanity outside of Shepard, Miranda, and Jacob. Once they did the collector ship mission, then they got all the data they need because EDi hack the collector ship data and got the info the cast needed.

I think the problem with the Collector ship mission was two-fold: placement and amount of information recovered.

In order to unlock that mission, we need to have at least 8 squad members already recruited. I believe that's a few too many when we don't even know the mission parameters yet. There probably should have been at least one other mandatory mission involving the Collectors, either before or after Horizon. During this mission, we would discover where the Omega 4 Relay leads, and what the nature of the Collector presence is, but we would not discover the means by which the Normandy (or any other strike force) could be sent through without getting destroyed. Then, after more squadmate recruitment and preparation, we would board the Collector ship and find out two things: The IFF that allows the Collectors easy access to their base, and the fact that there is only 1 Collector ship.

[100k]

Someone With Mass wrote...
If they had a fleet, then they would've hit Earth a long time ago and not the outskirts of the Terminus System.

You. Don't. Know. This. 

Just because you have a large army, doesn't mean that automatically use it. You're using reasoning? Okay, here's some reasoning: The Reapers lost their connection with the citadel, and their in-galaxy scout (Sovereign). However, they still have a single race of highly advanced husks at their disposal -- and a galaxy unaware of their existence.
They can either 

a) attack the council races with a fleet of collector ships, thus exposing the Reaper threat three years before the actual Reaper fleet arrives, and risking the alien races uniting against them.

wait until the Reaper fleet arrives, then use the collectors as ground troops, and the Reapers as heavy hitters -- also allowing for a complete surprise attack.

Which sounds like the better plan to you?

*knows you won't answer this*

Harbinger can't be waiting, because he and the other Reapers are out in dark space in hibernation, and I like to think that a small strike force like the Collectors and their base is easier and faster to construct and run than an entire population center.

You don't know where Harbinger himself might be. You don't know this. Neither do I. But risking having a Reaper being located at a Reaper indoctrinated population isn't a risk Shepard should be willing to take. 

Thus, scouting wins.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.They isolated themselves so much that it's hard to get info on them outside the omega 4 relay .You have to attack one of their ships to get info on them...Which Shepard did.

Or you just send probes.

dreman9999 wrote...
2.If we send a probe where tell them we are attacking. When you the jump to their space, you would be jumping into an area fill with Oculusat every corner. We'll be shot out of the sky.

Again, you've got no point, a lot of ships or probes have attempted to go throug the relay, if we just send some probes, the collector's won't know anything besides that the probes got there, so why would they think we attack?

dreman9999 wrote...
3.The Shadow broker sent probes that came back and had no info...meaning they nave got close to the base. With out the iff, the ship or anything sent through the omega relay will land any where in the core, which is why they got the iff in the first place.

We don't know anything about the Shadow broker probes outside the fact that they came back, which means they would have passed through the Sister relay. which is also in the safe zone.

dreman9999 wrote...
4. And who is the only one they know now is trying to get to them.....Shepard. You thing they would think that it's a coincidence that a probe goes in to check the landing area as Shepard, the only one out side ;collectors and reapers who has an IFF that let them get to the collector base, is trying to get in.

And were are you getting this? what if it were Alliance Special-forces doing recon, i mean you can't just take once specif scenario, just because.

dreman9999 wrote...
5.The entire story of Shepards deling with the reapers is the main narritive.

That's true, and guess what, Mass Effect 2 had nothing to do with stopping the reapers.

dreman9999 wrote...
The narritive for arrial is about the reapers, so it's part of the main narritive.

Over-arching plot continuation in a DLC is good, but that has nothing to with the plot Of Mass Effect 2.

dreman9999 wrote...
The point of ME2 was just you delaying the reapers plans so they don't have as stong as a foot hold as they would have in the war and get as much info and tech on them as possible.

And were does this happen, All we know is stop the bad guys, we don't what for, how or what we are trying to accomplish.

We're going in circles. As I said, you need to have the iff to get anything anywhere close to the collector base. Also, if you send a probe once you do get an iff, your just tell the collectord you about to attack, prompting them to make a counter attact to take you out as soon as you land in the area. And they know shepard is going to come in. They would not think that a probe that just happens to come in their area just happens to not belong to Shepard. Also, Shepard is the only one with the iff that allows anything to get near the collector base, no one else would have it meaning no no else would send a probe that will get near the base. The sb probes came back with no info, meaning they where no were near the base. An IFF is need to get anything to the base. The alliance also, would not be able to have a probe reach the collect base because they don't have the iff.

ME2 plot is all about stopping the reapers, you just fight their tools to do so. And the arrival is part of the entire plot of ME, Shepard facing the reapers. ME is a trilgy, that means everything in it is on giant plot devide in 3 parts. AS for the delaying of the reapers, remeber, the reapers want to turn humanity into a reaper. You destroy it before they finished, thus they are delayed.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:43 .

[111987]

Why would the Collector's attacking the council races give evidence of a Reaper threat? I mean, if a Reaper attack on the Citadel doesn't convince them...

[100k]

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
Sure, we didn't know the Collector's were in the galactic core until midway through the game, but we knew there weren't millions of them, else their attacks would have been much larger and widespread.

No. NO! 

You DON'T know this until you go through the relay. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. THIS.

What if the Reapers were cloning trillions of Collectors to act as their husk force for their Cycle War? What if they needed a handful of worlds to clone this vast population? 

...come on now. If there were trillions of Collectors, why wouldn't the Reapers just use them to harvest and enslave the galaxy for them? Why would the Reapers even bother coming themselves?

You're just being silly now.

Because we don't know the Reaper intentions! It's yet to be revealed in ME3. You cannot argue against this. You just can't. You don't have a counter argument to this, because their isn't one.

"You don't know the things that you don't know."