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[111987]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
Sure, we didn't know the Collector's were in the galactic core until midway through the game, but we knew there weren't millions of them, else their attacks would have been much larger and widespread.

No. NO! 

You DON'T know this until you go through the relay. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. THIS.

What if the Reapers were cloning trillions of Collectors to act as their husk force for their Cycle War? What if they needed a handful of worlds to clone this vast population? 

...come on now. If there were trillions of Collectors, why wouldn't the Reapers just use them to harvest and enslave the galaxy for them? Why would the Reapers even bother coming themselves?

You're just being silly now.

Because we don't know the Reaper intentions! It's yet to be revealed in ME3. You cannot argue against this. You just can't. You don't have a counter argument to this, because their isn't one.

"You don't know the things that you don't know."

We know the Reapers intended the Collectors to harvest humans right? We knew this right from the start. So, because we don't know the Reaper's ultimate goals, we know they wouldn't want the Collectors to complete their task as quickly/efficiently as possible?

Right.

[Someone With Mass]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The "get four people" part was created by a limitation of the Xbox and having to change disks after a certain point in the game. If it were a PC-only game, everyone would have been recruitable from the start.

Or if BioWare actually knew how to use the disc swap system more than a whooping of two times.

[dreman9999]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ridiculously huge quote pyramid

That the thing. Every thing was not made to stop the collectors. It was to stop who ever the current reaper agent is, as the reapers are know to use agents to push their agendas if they are too far to do it themselves or can't get to certin places.TIM did not now about the collectors involvement until after freedom's progress. An after that the plan was started to be put to gether. I say this because TIM did not even give us a full list of recuits ontill after horizion. So, no plan was fully grounded untill after the collector ship. Between the begining and end of the game, the cast was just figuring out how to do the mission and putting the most flexible team they can with out using the bast of humanity outside of Shepard, Miranda, and Jacob. Once they did the collector ship mission, then they got all the data they need because EDi hack the collector ship data and got the info the cast needed.

I think the problem with the Collector ship mission was two-fold: placement and amount of information recovered.

In order to unlock that mission, we need to have at least 8 squad members already recruited. I believe that's a few too many when we don't even know the mission parameters yet. There probably should have been at least one other mandatory mission involving the Collectors, either before or after Horizon. During this mission, we would discover where the Omega 4 Relay leads, and what the nature of the Collector presence is, but we would not discover the means by which the Normandy (or any other strike force) could be sent through without getting destroyed. Then, after more squadmate recruitment and preparation, we would board the Collector ship and find out two things: The IFF that allows the Collectors easy access to their base, and the fact that there is only 1 Collector ship.

Your forgeting that fact that the collector used what happened in the last meeting as a way to lure the cast into a trap. They put out a fake turian destress call stating the collector ship was damage. They used the fact that we damaged the collector ship on horizion to make a lure for Shepard.

[100k]

111987 wrote...

Why would the Collector's attacking the council races give evidence of a Reaper threat? I mean, if a Reaper attack on the Citadel doesn't convince them...

Because evaluation of a Collector corpse would show that they were once protheans, repurposed by a greater power. This wouldn't alone be enough to prove Shepard right -- but it would be a huge gap of logic filled for the galactic extinction cycles that every race recognized in the past -- along with Saren's defection, the creation of husks, etc.  Having Harbinger run around on a battlefield via collector drones would also help big time. 

*The council would probably just think it was the geth doing this*

No, because the Collectors are 50,000 years old. 

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

ME2 plot is all about stopping the reapers, you just fight their tools to do so. And the arrival is part of the entire plot of ME, Shepard facing the reapers. ME is a trilgy, that means everything in it is on giant plot devide in 3 parts. AS for the delaying of the reapers, remeber, the reapers want to turn humanity into a reaper. You destroy it before they finished, thus they are delayed.

Harbringer: "Human.  You have changed nothing.  Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.  That which you know as 'Reapers' are your salvation through destruction"

I'm inclined to agree with Harbringer.  How did Shepard's actions do anything more than mildly annoy the Reapers this time around.  Arrival was a far, far, greater blow against them.  It actually pushed back the invasion by several months.

[100k]

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...
Sure, we didn't know the Collector's were in the galactic core until midway through the game, but we knew there weren't millions of them, else their attacks would have been much larger and widespread.

No. NO! 

You DON'T know this until you go through the relay. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. THIS.

What if the Reapers were cloning trillions of Collectors to act as their husk force for their Cycle War? What if they needed a handful of worlds to clone this vast population? 

...come on now. If there were trillions of Collectors, why wouldn't the Reapers just use them to harvest and enslave the galaxy for them? Why would the Reapers even bother coming themselves?

You're just being silly now.

Because we don't know the Reaper intentions! It's yet to be revealed in ME3. You cannot argue against this. You just can't. You don't have a counter argument to this, because their isn't one.

"You don't know the things that you don't know."

We know the Reapers intended the Collectors to harvest humans right? We knew this right from the start. So, because we don't know the Reaper's ultimate goals, we know they wouldn't want the Collectors to complete their task as quickly/efficiently as possible?

Right.

Not if they're trying to be stealthy (which they were). 

And guess what? The Reapers probably know that some major galactic powers are already aware of their existence, including the Shadow Broker, the Alliance, and Cerberus. Those are three pretty heavy hitters.

They don't want to risk losing the element of surprise.

*but why should  they care? Even if the council races unite against them, the Reapers are super strong*

Because they don't want to risk other Illoses-- especially without the Citadel to give them locations. Organic life might be weak, but it is also wide spread, and deep rooted. 

Modifié par 100k, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:38 .

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Reaper IFF is a signal. Only the Reapers and the Collector ships have this signal. Since there are no Reapers in the galaxy, when the Collectors detect this signal, don't you think they'd investigate?

The Collectors being able to pick up and track their creators' signals is apparently a plothole in itself.

The brown star block the signal.......When it was hooked up to the normady, the signal was amptified. The reapers used it as a back door into the normady, hacked it and sent the collectors at them.

As I said earlier, based on that logic, the Collectors can't recieve any signals being surrounded by exploding stars. Which defeats the purpose of anything with an IFF going through.

But they are not surrounded by exploding stars....They are in a calm area without them. That woudl be liks saying the reaper corps was found next to a brown star and the signal could not be sent off. The reaper was in a brown star, the collector base is just next to exploding stars.

[Someone With Mass]

100k wrote...

You. Don't. Know. This. 

Just because you have a large army, doesn't mean that automatically use it. You're using reasoning? Okay, here's some reasoning: The Reapers lost their connection with the citadel, and their in-galaxy scout (Sovereign). However, they still have a single race of highly advanced husks at their disposal -- and a galaxy unaware of their existence.
They can either 

a) attack the council races with a fleet of collector ships, thus exposing the Reaper threat three years before the actual Reaper fleet arrives, and risking the alien races uniting against them.

wait until the Reaper fleet arrives, then use the collectors as ground troops, and the Reapers as heavy hitters -- also allowing for a complete surprise attack.

Which sounds like the better plan to you?

*knows you won't answer this*

Guess what. They already have ground troops.

The Reapers hitting everything in person seems to enough of a surprise attack to me, considering that both the human and turian fleets are decimated in the attacks.

Also, I don't think they would waste that much element zero or other resources on a massive fleet that they can use for themselves.

[111987]

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

Why would the Collector's attacking the council races give evidence of a Reaper threat? I mean, if a Reaper attack on the Citadel doesn't convince them...

Because evaluation of a Collector corpse would show that they were once protheans, repurposed by a greater power. This wouldn't alone be enough to prove Shepard right -- but it would be a huge gap of logic filled for the galactic extinction cycles that every race recognized in the past -- along with Saren's defection, the creation of husks, etc.  Having Harbinger run around on a battlefield via collector drones would also help big time. 

*The council would probably just think it was the geth doing this*

No, because the Collectors are 50,000 years old. 

How do you know the Collectors are 50,000 years old? A scan of a corpse wouldn't tell you that.

Plus, the Council wouldn't have any reason to suspect the Protheans were repurposed. EDI could make that hypothesis because she already believed the Reapers existed. But genetically and physically, they are so different it's unlikely anyone would make that connection.

It's like saying because Turians and Quarians both have dextro-DNA, the Quarians must be repurposed Turians.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Guh,Notlikeyoucare,you're not very bright....the IFF is used on the relay that is NOT NEAR THE CORE, it tells that relay to put you in the right spot,the relay is near Omega so the IFF is neccesary to tell THAT relay to not launch you into a sun.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:39 .

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ME2 plot is all about stopping the reapers, you just fight their tools to do so. And the arrival is part of the entire plot of ME, Shepard facing the reapers. ME is a trilgy, that means everything in it is on giant plot devide in 3 parts. AS for the delaying of the reapers, remeber, the reapers want to turn humanity into a reaper. You destroy it before they finished, thus they are delayed.

Harbringer: "Human.  You have changed nothing.  Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.  That which you know as 'Reapers' are your salvation through destruction"

I'm inclined to agree with Harbringer.  How did Shepard's actions do anything more than mildly annoy the Reapers this time around.  Arrival was a far, far, greater blow against them.  It actually pushed back the invasion by several months.

Think about it this way. How much faster would the reapers be able to harvest the people on earth and turn them in to a reaper if Shepard didn't destroy the baby reaper in ME2?

My point is the we gave ourselve more time and we got info on their tech. If we did not do what we did in ME2, THE reaper would be able to focus more on the rest of the galexy then they already are in ME3.

[Notlikeyoucare]

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

Why would the Collector's attacking the council races give evidence of a Reaper threat? I mean, if a Reaper attack on the Citadel doesn't convince them...

Because evaluation of a Collector corpse would show that they were once protheans, repurposed by a greater power. This wouldn't alone be enough to prove Shepard right -- but it would be a huge gap of logic filled for the galactic extinction cycles that every race recognized in the past -- along with Saren's defection, the creation of husks, etc.  Having Harbinger run around on a battlefield via collector drones would also help big time. 

*The council would probably just think it was the geth doing this*

No, because the Collectors are 50,000 years old. 

How do you know the Collectors are 50,000 years old? A scan of a corpse wouldn't tell you that.

Plus, the Council wouldn't have any reason to suspect the Protheans were repurposed. EDI could make that hypothesis because she already believed the Reapers existed. But genetically and physically, they are so different it's unlikely anyone would make that connection.

It's like saying because Turians and Quarians both have dextro-DNA, the Quarians must be repurposed Turians.

Because thats when they were indoctrinated. Doesn't EDI state that the Collectors and Prothean's share the same DNA?

[100k]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Guess what. They already have ground troops.

The Reapers hitting everything in person seems to enough of a surprise attack to me, considering that both the human and turian fleets are decimated in the attacks.

Also, I don't think they would waste that much element zero or other resources on a massive fleet that they can use for themselves.

Yes, but once again you don't know this until months after the SM. 

[Someone With Mass]

111987 wrote...

How do you know the Collectors are 50,000 years old? A scan of a corpse wouldn't tell you that.

Plus, the Council wouldn't have any reason to suspect the Protheans were repurposed. EDI could make that hypothesis because she already believed the Reapers existed. But genetically and physically, they are so different it's unlikely anyone would make that connection.

It's like saying because Turians and Quarians both have dextro-DNA, the Quarians must be repurposed Turians.

By the way, that corpse is also a clone, rendering the age scale useless.

[cyclospdias]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

111987 wrote...

So now the Bioware writers didn't invest any thought or feelings into their writing? Good lord, how am I supposed to debate people when THAT is really their argument?

There are INSTANCES of bad/lazy writing. Every writer in the history of the world has had these instances; it's part of being a flawed human. Charcterizing the writers themselves, in their entirety, as lazy is just crazy.

Instances?

The plot of the game is lazy writing, to the point where the plot only makes sense if you observe it in backwards fashion.

The collectors have a base we can blow up using a small team of specialists, Good thing we had the foresight to assemble a team even though we didn't know what waited beyond the Omega 4 relay.

I'm going on a quest to assemble a team of specialists so i can blow up that base i don't know about yet but will be there.

I'm the illusive man I'm gonna spend billions reviving Shepard and countless millions on constructing the SR2 so he/she can find a small team of specialists though the Omega 4 relay and blow of the base we have no idea exist yet.

Alright I'll admit it doesn't make that much sense in reverse but it still makes a whole lot of more sense than going forwards... let's try.

Hi I'm the illusive man : "Humanity is in peril, countless colonies have just dissapeared so I'm gonna revive a dead hero".
Servant : "Ehh mr illusive can i ask..why?"
Illusive man :" Ahem want?"
Servant :"Sure Shepard is a great hero and all that but why spend all these resources on reviving him/her.. i mean what does Shepard bring to the table?"
Illusive man "Well Shepard destroyed a reaper and.."
Servant "And?"
Illusive man : "hmmm shut up okay?... now moving on".
Servant :"okay".
Illusive man :" Now after reviving Shepard I'm gonna send him on a quest to find a bunch of specialists".
Servant :"Okay.. ehh why?".
Illusive man :"Why what?".
Servant :"How will a group of specialists help you discover why the collectors are attacking colonies.. you know satellites and probes are very effective on gathering such information?"
Illusive man :"I don't know.. just because."
Servant :"Okay".
Illusive man : "And then.. get this I'm gonna send Shepard into a trap on a stranded collector ship!"
Servant :"Ohh how dastardly of you sir... why?"
Illusive man :"I like toying around with my investments.. that's what got me so far".
Servant :"I see..."
Illusive man :" And then I'm gonna send Shepard to a 37 million years old reaper so he/she can fetch a Mcguffin that will allow access to the galactic core where they will find a base Shepard can infiltrate and blow up using his/her bunch of specialists that i had the foresight to put him/her on a quest to pick up even though i don't at this moment have any idea what will happen.. it's just screwy like that".
Servant : "Ehh okay i see". 

You are deliberately ignoring some facts to back your theory up:
A)TIM revived Shepard for numerous reasons.
TIM knew that the Reapers were coming,thnaks to Shepard,and he revived hi/her because not only is Shepard one of the best leaders humanity has,something that MIGHT come of use in the upcoming invasion but he also knew mor eabout the Reapers thna anyone else,his knowledge of them as well as his vision could prove invaluable.

B)TIM suspected that the Reapers were behind the Collectors and whatever happened had to be big,so he gave Shepard some specialist to aid him so he could face whatever he encountered during his investigation

C)TIM didnt warn Shepard fo the trap because if the Collectors knew what Shepard was after,they could easily flee rather than let him get info on them.

Looks perfectly logical to me.Accordign to you,no squad should be outfitted with many different sqaud memebrs to face many situations,we will jsut otufi tthem when the need comes and leave em alone al the other time,supscetible to surprises and ambushes.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Think about it this way. How much faster would the reapers be able to harvest the people on earth and turn them in to a reaper if Shepard didn't destroy the baby reaper in ME2?

My point is the we gave ourselve more time and we got info on their tech. If we did not do what we did in ME2, THE reaper would be able to focus more on the rest of the galexy then they already are in ME3.

Not that much time, given the main fleet was only a few months away at most.  

Modifié par iakus, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[111987]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

Why would the Collector's attacking the council races give evidence of a Reaper threat? I mean, if a Reaper attack on the Citadel doesn't convince them...

Because evaluation of a Collector corpse would show that they were once protheans, repurposed by a greater power. This wouldn't alone be enough to prove Shepard right -- but it would be a huge gap of logic filled for the galactic extinction cycles that every race recognized in the past -- along with Saren's defection, the creation of husks, etc.  Having Harbinger run around on a battlefield via collector drones would also help big time. 

*The council would probably just think it was the geth doing this*

No, because the Collectors are 50,000 years old. 

How do you know the Collectors are 50,000 years old? A scan of a corpse wouldn't tell you that.

Plus, the Council wouldn't have any reason to suspect the Protheans were repurposed. EDI could make that hypothesis because she already believed the Reapers existed. But genetically and physically, they are so different it's unlikely anyone would make that connection.

It's like saying because Turians and Quarians both have dextro-DNA, the Quarians must be repurposed Turians.

Because thats when they were indoctrinated. Doesn't EDI state that the Collectors and Prothean's share the same DNA?

Yes, we know they are 50,000 years old. But how would a scan of a corpse show this (answer; it wouldn't).?

They have some genetcally similarities, but so do humans and batarians, turians and quarians, etc...

[Notlikeyoucare]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ME2 plot is all about stopping the reapers, you just fight their tools to do so. And the arrival is part of the entire plot of ME, Shepard facing the reapers. ME is a trilgy, that means everything in it is on giant plot devide in 3 parts. AS for the delaying of the reapers, remeber, the reapers want to turn humanity into a reaper. You destroy it before they finished, thus they are delayed.

Harbringer: "Human.  You have changed nothing.  Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.  That which you know as 'Reapers' are your salvation through destruction"

I'm inclined to agree with Harbringer.  How did Shepard's actions do anything more than mildly annoy the Reapers this time around.  Arrival was a far, far, greater blow against them.  It actually pushed back the invasion by several months.

Think about it this way. How much faster would the reapers be able to harvest the people on earth and turn them in to a reaper if Shepard didn't destroy the baby reaper in ME2?

My point is the we gave ourselve more time and we got info on their tech. If we did not do what we did in ME2, THE reaper would be able to focus more on the rest of the galexy then they already are in ME3.

They wouldn't have been able to finish it anyway, They run out of humans before they finished it. "They're going to target Earth". The Collector Crusier would have been blown away the minute it reached Earth, if not, earlier.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

Yes, we know they are 50,000 years old. But how would a scan of a corpse show this (answer; it wouldn't).?

They have some genetcally similarities, but so do humans and batarians, turians and quarians, etc...

Then how could EDI tell?

[Someone With Mass]

100k wrote...
Yes, but once again you don't know this until months after the SM. 

So? I know that the Reapers will sooner or later arrive in person, and since everyone refuses to believe me, it'll be one hell of a surprise.

[Lukertin]

111987 wrote...
They have some genetcally similarities, but so do humans and batarians, turians and quarians, etc...

evidence?

[100k]

111987 wrote...How do you know the Collectors are 50,000 years old? A scan of a corpse wouldn't tell you that.

Because they are Protheans...

Plus, the Council wouldn't have any reason to suspect the Protheans were repurposed. EDI could make that hypothesis because she already believed the Reapers existed. But genetically and physically, they are so different it's unlikely anyone would make that connection.

EDI and Mordin can tell that they are reporposed-- infact, I think they both use the words "genetic rewritten." The council might discredit EDI (though unlikely considering how advanced she is), but they'd likely never discredit Mordin. 

Oh, and after the events on Horizon, the mission brief exclaims that the Alliance retrieved several Collector bodies for study. 

Modifié par 100k, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:47 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

iakus wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Clearafy, and saying everything is a plothole is missguided and lazy.

Both, consist out of the most convoluted logic, both of them should have been impossible to achieve, both resolve in the most  contrived unrealistic manner and lastly both relay on the power plot  to advance.

Those are the baselines
but feel free to watch it all here.

1 www.youtube.com/watch from about 03:00

I don't think even smudboy's saying the writers are lazy, just that the central narrative was badly done.  Check out around 5:15. ( I'll also quote for those who can't be bothered to watch the video itself:)

"Luckilly, as random and unexplainable in getting the soldiers is, getting the soldiers is really fun and the storytelling for them is good.  Side characters are all really cool, and although I can't say I understood them all, I really liked them.  They develop well.  Some have arcs.  In fact, some of them are the most fleshed out and believable side characters in video games.  And that's all really good stuff.  But they're in the wrong story.  They're completely useless to the main plot.  Sure we need them for the plot to continue but at that point we don't know why, except for Mordin.  His countermeasure is a plot device, which is fine.  But we've got eleven other guys. "

Meh.  

Jacob and Miranda come with the deal, representing Cerberus to start out with.  Grunt is the consolation prize for losing the second scientist, who happens to be someone who has dealt with the Collectors.  Mordin is a top-notch scientist. 

Beyond that, you'll need more than a bunch of typical Cerberus grunts to get the job done, whatever it turns out to be.  So you go get a bunch of highly competent people and pay and/or convince them to join you.  I

Garrus is the one really contrived squad member -- unless you think that TIM suspected that Archangel was Garrus. 

Overall, this is a perfect example of Smuddy WANTING to find problems, rather than just seeing real problems.  This whole "why the squad why?!?" thing just isn't that big a deal. 

The real problem with the squad is that they perhaps don't always come across as quite so competent as they're made out to be, but that would more about "Shep is the baddest" syndrome.

[Anacronian Stryx]

dreman9999 wrote...

That the thing. Every thing was not made to stop the collectors. It was to stop who ever the current reaper agent is, as the reapers are know to use agents to push their agendas if they are too far to do it themselves or can't get to certin places.TIM did not now about the collectors involvement until after freedom's progress.

If what you say is true then.

How do TIM knows there is a "current reaper agent"?
How do TIM knows that the disappearances is linked to the reapers if he has no knowledge of the collectors before going to Freedoms Progress.
And if he didn't have any knowledge of the collectors before the events at Freedoms Progress then why send Shepard there?
And still why spend billions on reviving Shepard?.
The only thing unique about Shepard is the cipher and his/her understanding of the protheon language, Now if that was somehow linked to the plot and TIM knew this then spending a fortune on reviving him/her would make sense but sadly it plays no role what so ever.
Shepard in ME2 does nothing that any well trained soldier couldn't do.  

An after that the plan was started to be put to gether. I say this because TIM did not even give us a full list of recuits ontill after horizion. So, no plan was fully grounded untill after the collector ship. Between the begining and end of the game, the cast was just figuring out how to do the mission and putting the most flexible team they can with out using the bast of humanity outside of Shepard, Miranda, and Jacob. Once they did the collector ship mission, then they got all the data they need because EDi hack the collector ship data and got the info the cast needed.

But it's the most ludacris plan ever, Send a single ship into a big unknown without trying to gather even rudimentary information of what lurks there, It is called contrived and the sort of plan that only works because the writers say so.

The proble with smudboy analysis is that he thinks that Shepard was resuractied  because of the collectors, He was reserected because a reaper agent was know to be in use and to stop the reapers in general. The plan to take them down was not finished untill they did the collector ship mission, it was not fully assabled at the begining of the game, hence the fact we started with 4 people to get.

How do you get that information, Have i completely missed something in the game, Did Harbinger phone TIM over a year before the events of Freedoms Progress and say "hey i got meself an agent..find me!"?.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:46 .

[111987]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

Yes, we know they are 50,000 years old. But how would a scan of a corpse show this (answer; it wouldn't).?

They have some genetcally similarities, but so do humans and batarians, turians and quarians, etc...

Then how could EDI tell?

Because EDI knows about the Reapers. Seeing the similarities between the Collector corpse and Prothean genetics is all well and good, but without knowledge of the Reapers, no-one would reach the conclusion that the Protheans were repurposed.