6494 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Guh,Notlikeyoucare,you're not very bright....

No need for that.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Guh,Notlikeyoucare,you're not very bright....the IFF is used on the relay that is NOT NEAR THE CORE, it tells that relay to put you in the right spot,the relay is near Omega so the IFF is neccesary to tell THAT relay to not launch you into a sun.

I never even argued that point. But in answer to your question that you didn't ask

Modifié par Notlikeyoucare, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:51 .

[111987]

Lukertin wrote...

111987 wrote...
They have some genetcally similarities, but so do humans and batarians, turians and quarians, etc...

evidence?

Humans and batarians have the same structure of DNA, as so Turians and Quarians.

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...How do you know the Collectors are 50,000 years old? A scan of a corpse wouldn't tell you that.

Because they are Protheans...

Plus, the Council wouldn't have any reason to suspect the Protheans were repurposed. EDI could make that hypothesis because she already believed the Reapers existed. But genetically and physically, they are so different it's unlikely anyone would make that connection.

EDI and Mordin can tell that they are reporposed-- infact, I think they both use the words "genetic rewritten." The council might discredit EDI (though unlikely considering how advanced she is), but they'd likely never discredit Mordin. 

Oh, and after the events on Horizon, the mission brief exclaims that the Alliance retrieved several Collector bodies for study. 

The Council wouldn't know the Collectors were Protheans, so they wouldn't know they were 50,000 years old. EDI can hypothesize that they were rewritten because they share some genetic similarities. But if you don't believe in the Reapers, one would never make the connection between the Protheans and Collectors.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Think about it this way. How much faster would the reapers be able to harvest the people on earth and turn them in to a reaper if Shepard didn't destroy the baby reaper in ME2?

My point is the we gave ourselve more time and we got info on their tech. If we did not do what we did in ME2, THE reaper would be able to focus more on the rest of the galexy then they already are in ME3.

Not that much time, given the main fleet was only a few months away at most.  

Not for an attack. I mean to finish the reaper. The reaper is no where near finished in ME2.  Most people though that the reaper was for a new attack...Arival add new info the changes all of that. They were geting ready to hit earth to complete the rearper, not hit earth with the reaper once it's done. Arraival can be done anytime after Horision, so that means the reapers could be already in the galexy in your game. Their primary goal is to harvest humanity and then the rest of the galexy. What you did in the collector base is a big undo. They have to start from scratch now. It's going to take longer to make a reaper now.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 septembre 2011 - 10:20 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I didn't ask a question.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Why did Harbinger not kill the SR-1 crew that made it off the ship? Shepard could have easily been one of them. Did he and the Collectors know that it was Shepard getting spaced?

[Killjoy Cutter]

100k wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
If they had a fleet, then they would've hit Earth a long time ago and not the outskirts of the Terminus System.

You. Don't. Know. This. 

Just because you have a large army, doesn't mean that automatically use it. You're using reasoning? Okay, here's some reasoning: The Reapers lost their connection with the citadel, and their in-galaxy scout (Sovereign). However, they still have a single race of highly advanced husks at their disposal -- and a galaxy unaware of their existence.
They can either 

a) attack the council races with a fleet of collector ships, thus exposing the Reaper threat three years before the actual Reaper fleet arrives, and risking the alien races uniting against them.

wait until the Reaper fleet arrives, then use the collectors as ground troops, and the Reapers as heavy hitters -- also allowing for a complete surprise attack.

Which sounds like the better plan to you?

*knows you won't answer this*

Harbinger can't be waiting, because he and the other Reapers are out in dark space in hibernation, and I like to think that a small strike force like the Collectors and their base is easier and faster to construct and run than an entire population center.

You don't know where Harbinger himself might be. You don't know this. Neither do I. But risking having a Reaper being located at a Reaper indoctrinated population isn't a risk Shepard should be willing to take. 

Thus, scouting wins.

Of course, they can't scout.  They don't have the IFF, and once they do, there's only one, and they have no idea when or even if they can duplicate it. 

[100k]

Someone With Mass wrote...

100k wrote...
Yes, but once again you don't know this until months after the SM. 

So? I know that the Reapers will sooner or later arrive in person, and since everyone refuses to believe me, it'll be one hell of a surprise.

Yeah, you missed the entire point we were arguing. I'm done talking about this with you.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I didn't ask a question.

Fixed.

[cyclospdias]

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

Why would the Collector's attacking the council races give evidence of a Reaper threat? I mean, if a Reaper attack on the Citadel doesn't convince them...

Because evaluation of a Collector corpse would show that they were once protheans, repurposed by a greater power. This wouldn't alone be enough to prove Shepard right -- but it would be a huge gap of logic filled for the galactic extinction cycles that every race recognized in the past -- along with Saren's defection, the creation of husks, etc.  Having Harbinger run around on a battlefield via collector drones would also help big time. 

*The council would probably just think it was the geth doing this*

No, because the Collectors are 50,000 years old. 

How do you know the Collectors are 50,000 years old? A scan of a corpse wouldn't tell you that.

Plus, the Council wouldn't have any reason to suspect the Protheans were repurposed. EDI could make that hypothesis because she already believed the Reapers existed. But genetically and physically, they are so different it's unlikely anyone would make that connection.

It's like saying because Turians and Quarians both have dextro-DNA, the Quarians must be repurposed Turians.

EDI came to the conclusion that Collectors are Protheans since they are the only species they share DNA with and they were extinct.Turians and Quarians however both exist at th esame time,so why would the same species evolve into a different one with no reason.This could however imply that the Qaurians and Turians onse had the same ancestor??I cant say.

We know the Collector are 50.000 years old cause that was th elast time the Protheans were really Protheans,after that they were wippe dout byt he Reapers and they were indoctrinated to collectors

[dreman9999]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ME2 plot is all about stopping the reapers, you just fight their tools to do so. And the arrival is part of the entire plot of ME, Shepard facing the reapers. ME is a trilgy, that means everything in it is on giant plot devide in 3 parts. AS for the delaying of the reapers, remeber, the reapers want to turn humanity into a reaper. You destroy it before they finished, thus they are delayed.

Harbringer: "Human.  You have changed nothing.  Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.  That which you know as 'Reapers' are your salvation through destruction"

I'm inclined to agree with Harbringer.  How did Shepard's actions do anything more than mildly annoy the Reapers this time around.  Arrival was a far, far, greater blow against them.  It actually pushed back the invasion by several months.

Think about it this way. How much faster would the reapers be able to harvest the people on earth and turn them in to a reaper if Shepard didn't destroy the baby reaper in ME2?

My point is the we gave ourselve more time and we got info on their tech. If we did not do what we did in ME2, THE reaper would be able to focus more on the rest of the galexy then they already are in ME3.

They wouldn't have been able to finish it anyway, They run out of humans before they finished it. "They're going to target Earth". The Collector Crusier would have been blown away the minute it reached Earth, if not, earlier.

That's my point...They were going to finish it once the invasion started. We delay them and made them start all over again.

[100k]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Of course, they can't scout.  They don't have the IFF, and once they do, there's only one, and they have no idea when or even if they can duplicate it. 

We know that it can be replicated fairly soon, becuase Cerberus sends in ships after Shepard electrifies the base.

[Someone With Mass]

100k wrote...
Yeah, you missed the entire point we were arguing. I'm done talking about this with you.

There was a point in all that? Wow, I am sleepy.

[100k]

cyclospdias wrote...
EDI came to the conclusion that Collectors are Protheans since they are the only species they share DNA with and they were extinct.Turians and Quarians however both exist at th esame time,so why would the same species evolve into a different one with no reason.This could however imply that the Qaurians and Turians onse had the same ancestor??I cant say.

...are you implying that Turians and Quarians share the same DNA? 

We know the Collector are 50.000 years old cause that was th elast time the Protheans were really Protheans,after that they were wippe dout byt he Reapers and they were indoctrinated to collectors

It doesn't matter if they're 50,000 years old, or 10,000 years old. They predate the geth -- thus eliminating that possible origin. And they predate the asari -- as noted by Samara.

[111987]

cyclospdias wrote...

111987 wrote...

100k wrote...

111987 wrote...

Why would the Collector's attacking the council races give evidence of a Reaper threat? I mean, if a Reaper attack on the Citadel doesn't convince them...

Because evaluation of a Collector corpse would show that they were once protheans, repurposed by a greater power. This wouldn't alone be enough to prove Shepard right -- but it would be a huge gap of logic filled for the galactic extinction cycles that every race recognized in the past -- along with Saren's defection, the creation of husks, etc.  Having Harbinger run around on a battlefield via collector drones would also help big time. 

*The council would probably just think it was the geth doing this*

No, because the Collectors are 50,000 years old. 

How do you know the Collectors are 50,000 years old? A scan of a corpse wouldn't tell you that.

Plus, the Council wouldn't have any reason to suspect the Protheans were repurposed. EDI could make that hypothesis because she already believed the Reapers existed. But genetically and physically, they are so different it's unlikely anyone would make that connection.

It's like saying because Turians and Quarians both have dextro-DNA, the Quarians must be repurposed Turians.

EDI came to the conclusion that Collectors are Protheans since they are the only species they share DNA with and they were extinct.Turians and Quarians however both exist at th esame time,so why would the same species evolve into a different one with no reason.This could however imply that the Qaurians and Turians onse had the same ancestor??I cant say.

We know the Collector are 50.000 years old cause that was th elast time the Protheans were really Protheans,after that they were wippe dout byt he Reapers and they were indoctrinated to collectors

Maybe I wasn't clear, and I apologize. I personally know that the Collectors are both 50,000 years old and are repurposed Protheans.

However, the Council doesn't believe the Reapers exist. Thus they would never make the connection between the Collectors and Protheans; JUST the genetic similarieis alone doesn't prove it. It's only when you know what happened with the Reapers and Protheans that it makes sense.

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That the thing. Every thing was not made to stop the collectors. It was to stop who ever the current reaper agent is, as the reapers are know to use agents to push their agendas if they are too far to do it themselves or can't get to certin places.TIM did not now about the collectors involvement until after freedom's progress.

If what you say is true then.

How do TIM knows there is a "current reaper agent"?
How do TIM knows that the disappearances is linked to the reapers if he has no knowledge of the collectors before going to Freedoms Progress.
And if he didn't have any knowledge of the collectors before the events at Freedoms Progress then why send Shepard there?
And still why spend billions on reviving Shepard?.
The only thing unique about Shepard is the cipher and his/her understanding of the protheon language, Now if that was somehow linked to the plot and TIM knew this then spending a fortune on reviving him/her would make sense but sadly it plays no role what so ever.
Shepard in ME2 does nothing that any well trained soldier couldn't do.  

An after that the plan was started to be put to gether. I say this because TIM did not even give us a full list of recuits ontill after horizion. So, no plan was fully grounded untill after the collector ship. Between the begining and end of the game, the cast was just figuring out how to do the mission and putting the most flexible team they can with out using the bast of humanity outside of Shepard, Miranda, and Jacob. Once they did the collector ship mission, then they got all the data they need because EDi hack the collector ship data and got the info the cast needed.

But it's the most ludacris plan ever, Send a single ship into a big unknown without trying to gather even rudimentary information of what lurks there, It is called contrived and the sort of plan that only works because the writers say so.

The proble with smudboy analysis is that he thinks that Shepard was resuractied  because of the collectors, He was reserected because a reaper agent was know to be in use and to stop the reapers in general. The plan to take them down was not finished untill they did the collector ship mission, it was not fully assabled at the begining of the game, hence the fact we started with 4 people to get.

How do you get that information, Have i completely missed something in the game, Did Harbinger phone TIM over a year before the events of Freedoms Progress and say "hey i got meself an agent..find me!"?.

1. Because the reapers are the only ones theat havest people with out any signs of detection. Shepard ask you very same question. Look at the firstr meet of TIM and Shep agein.......Tim states he brough shep back to face the reapers.
2.The thing is, we can't gain any more info outside of what we got from thecollector ship. This is an enemy with better tech who is hiding behind a locked door with one way in. If we try to probe the relay for mor info on the collector after we get IFF....They will know we are about to attack and prepar a countor attack to take us out once the ship enter their space.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 septembre 2011 - 09:01 .

[111987]

100k wrote...

cyclospdias wrote...
EDI came to the conclusion that Collectors are Protheans since they are the only species they share DNA with and they were extinct.Turians and Quarians however both exist at th esame time,so why would the same species evolve into a different one with no reason.This could however imply that the Qaurians and Turians onse had the same ancestor??I cant say.

...are you implying that Turians and Quarians share the same DNA? 

We know the Collector are 50.000 years old cause that was th elast time the Protheans were really Protheans,after that they were wippe dout byt he Reapers and they were indoctrinated to collectors

It doesn't matter if they're 50,000 years old, or 10,000 years old. They predate the geth -- thus eliminating that possible origin. And they predate the asari -- as noted by Samara.

When did Samara say that? I'm not trying to be annoying but I truly don't recall that.

Why did the Geth have to create them? Why wouldn't the original Collector species augment themselves with cybernetics? That's how the Council would see it; they wouldn't even think of the Reapers.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lizardviking wrote...

Why did Harbinger not kill the SR-1 crew that made it off the ship? Shepard could have easily been one of them. Did he and the Collectors know that it was Shepard getting spaced?

See, this is a much bigger issue than some of the trivialities that are inflated. 

The attack and follow-up by the Collectors, the manner of Shep's death, the running espionage plot surrounding Shep's corpse, the degree of damage, and the "resurrection" -- that entire sequence was probably the worst part of ME2. 

[Iakus]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

iakus wrote...

"Luckilly, as random and unexplainable in getting the soldiers is, getting the soldiers is really fun and the storytelling for them is good.  Side characters are all really cool, and although I can't say I understood them all, I really liked them.  They develop well.  Some have arcs.  In fact, some of them are the most fleshed out and believable side characters in video games.  And that's all really good stuff.  But they're in the wrong story.  They're completely useless to the main plot.  Sure we need them for the plot to continue but at that point we don't know why, except for Mordin.  His countermeasure is a plot device, which is fine.  But we've got eleven other guys. "

Meh.  

Jacob and Miranda come with the deal, representing Cerberus to start out with.  Grunt is the consolation prize for losing the second scientist, who happens to be someone who has dealt with the Collectors.  Mordin is a top-notch scientist. 

Beyond that, you'll need more than a bunch of typical Cerberus grunts to get the job done, whatever it turns out to be.  So you go get a bunch of highly competent people and pay and/or convince them to join you.  I

Garrus is the one really contrived squad member -- unless you think that TIM suspected that Archangel was Garrus. 

Overall, this is a perfect example of Smuddy WANTING to find problems, rather than just seeing real problems.  This whole "why the squad why?!?" thing just isn't that big a deal. 

The real problem with the squad is that they perhaps don't always come across as quite so competent as they're made out to be, but that would more about "Shep is the baddest" syndrome.

It's less about that then they have no real connection to the main plot aside from "Shepard asked them to come along"  Mordin has a reason, as he's the one who comes up with the Seeker countermeasure.  But the rest are really just passing through.  As smudboy said, their personal stories are well done, but have nothing to do with what's going on in ME2.

Another quote further in:

"This is so static and disconnected to the main plot that these side stories are individual stories.  Like when you buy a book at the bookstore, open it,  and twelve other books fall out.  At the end of a chapter of the book you thought you bought it says 'If you want, go see Book #3' Only you have to read the first chapter of that book before you can read the next chapter of the main book

"Writers are supposed to weave character exposition into the narrative.  Not have it be twelve other semiessential stories."

[cyclospdias]

100k wrote...

cyclospdias wrote...
EDI came to the conclusion that Collectors are Protheans since they are the only species they share DNA with and they were extinct.Turians and Quarians however both exist at th esame time,so why would the same species evolve into a different one with no reason.This could however imply that the Qaurians and Turians onse had the same ancestor??I cant say.

...are you implying that Turians and Quarians share the same DNA? 

We know the Collector are 50.000 years old cause that was th elast time the Protheans were really Protheans,after that they were wippe dout byt he Reapers and they were indoctrinated to collectors

It doesn't matter if they're 50,000 years old, or 10,000 years old. They predate the geth -- thus eliminating that possible origin. And they predate the asari -- as noted by Samara.

Well the Codex says that the Quarians and Turians have the same general DNA,just like you share the same basic DNA as a dog for example.However since they dont share OUR DNA that makes me suppose that they descendded from the same species,somewhere splitted and then evolved into 2 different species.

Agreed.We know they predate the Geth,so showing that to the council  should make them understand its not the Geth.

[Sgt Stryker]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ridiculously huge quote pyramid

That the thing. Every thing was not made to stop the collectors. It was to stop who ever the current reaper agent is, as the reapers are know to use agents to push their agendas if they are too far to do it themselves or can't get to certin places.TIM did not now about the collectors involvement until after freedom's progress. An after that the plan was started to be put to gether. I say this because TIM did not even give us a full list of recuits ontill after horizion. So, no plan was fully grounded untill after the collector ship. Between the begining and end of the game, the cast was just figuring out how to do the mission and putting the most flexible team they can with out using the bast of humanity outside of Shepard, Miranda, and Jacob. Once they did the collector ship mission, then they got all the data they need because EDi hack the collector ship data and got the info the cast needed.

I think the problem with the Collector ship mission was two-fold: placement and amount of information recovered.

In order to unlock that mission, we need to have at least 8 squad members already recruited. I believe that's a few too many when we don't even know the mission parameters yet. There probably should have been at least one other mandatory mission involving the Collectors, either before or after Horizon. During this mission, we would discover where the Omega 4 Relay leads, and what the nature of the Collector presence is, but we would not discover the means by which the Normandy (or any other strike force) could be sent through without getting destroyed. Then, after more squadmate recruitment and preparation, we would board the Collector ship and find out two things: The IFF that allows the Collectors easy access to their base, and the fact that there is only 1 Collector ship.

Your forgeting that fact that the collector used what happened in the last meeting as a way to lure the cast into a trap. They put out a fake turian destress call stating the collector ship was damage. They used the fact that we damaged the collector ship on horizion to make a lure for Shepard.

That's not my point. My point is that the whole reveal about the Collectors living in the galaxy core, and not having a "homeworld" in the conventional sense was revealed too late. After acquiring Mordin and some combat specialists, as well as stopping the Collectors on Horizon, Shepard's next priority should have been to actively find a way to figure out what's behind Omega 4, not to recruit more team members for a mission whose parameters are still up in the air.

[Killjoy Cutter]

100k wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Of course, they can't scout.  They don't have the IFF, and once they do, there's only one, and they have no idea when or even if they can duplicate it. 

We know that it can be replicated fairly soon, becuase Cerberus sends in ships after Shepard electrifies the base.

Really... huh.  I guess it shows that I've never saved the base for TIMmy, doesn't it? 

Still, at the time, the characters in-universe have no idea of if or when the IFF can be duplicated.  And at least some incarnations of Shep aren't going to wait around that long after the Collectors took their crew. 

[100k]

111987 wrote...
When did Samara say that? I'm not trying to be annoying but I truly don't recall that.

I spoke poorly. We know that the Collectors were around when the asari were still primitive space faring people. Samara notes that they attacked her crew at one point. Either way, they still predate the geth by a long time.

Why did the Geth have to create them? Why wouldn't the original Collector species augment themselves with cybernetics? That's how the Council would see it; they wouldn't even think of the Reapers.

Are you implying that the Collectors and Protheans (assuming that they're different species) share the same DNA? 

[Anacronian Stryx]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Because the reapers are the only ones theat havest people with out any signs of detection. Shepard ask you very same question. Look at the firstr meet of TIM and Shep agein.......

And now were back to the HOW does TIM knows this?
See good writing would explain such things especially when they are plot relevant.
Lazy writing would just glance over it.

Didn't see you had added this.

2.The thing is, we can't gain any more info outside of what we got from thecollector ship. This is an enemy with better tech who is hiding behind a locked door with one way in. If we try to probe the relay for mor info on the collector after we get IFF....They will know we are about to attack and prepar a countor attack to take us out once the ship enter their space.

Well the Shadow Broker send a probe and there was no counter attack waiting for Shepard when they went though so i don't really see your point here.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 06 septembre 2011 - 09:09 .

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

No for an attack. I mean to finIsh the reaper. The reaper is no where near finished in ME2.  Most people though that the reaper was for a new attack...Arival add new info the changes all of that. They were geting ready to hit earth to complete the rearper, not hit earth with the reaper once it's done. Arraival can be done anytime after Horision, so that means the reapers could be already in the galexy in your game. Their primary goal is to harvest humanity and then the rest of the galexy. What you did in the collector base is a big undo. They have to start from scratch now. It's going to take longer to make a reaper now.

Arcturus Station and an entire Alliance fleet guard the bottleneck to the Charon Relay.  Plus whatever's in the Local system as well.  One Collector cruiser would be a bug on the windshield.  literally.  Even if one cruiser did have the capacity ot carry off several billion humans before the other races could wonder why Earth suddenly went silent.